Player development and getting good training results

[djorg]

So I've encountered frustrations with FM22 that I saw in FM21 and caused me to not play much, which is that I'm completely unable to understand why some players are developing and some aren't. In FM21 I could not get Erling Haaland's CA to increase at all. Over multiple years. I just wanted to see how awesome he would become. The answer: he didn't.

For FM22 I'm managing Arsenal.

Nketiah, Odegaard, Sambi Lokanga, and Tomiyasu are showing promising increases in CA

Martinelli, Rowe Smith, and Saka are showing NONE

* It's not their hidden personalities
* It's not the amount of 1st team games, they're all getting loads
* It's not their in-game ratings (Nketiah and Sambi Lokanga have the worst ratings of the 7)

I hate not being able to predict what players will improve. I hate the thought of it just being random. Developing young players and seeing them get good is the thing I enjoy most about FM. 

The only thing I have noted is that Nketiah, Odegaard, Sambi Lokanga and Tomiyasu have on occasion showed up in "green" on the weekly training report as having the best training performances, where as Martinelli, Rowe Smith, and Saka have not (but they're not in "red" either)

Does this suggest, unlike previous versions where getting games and good ratings was most important, it's only high training numbers, say over 8, that causes the increases?

What causes specific players to have good training sessions? I can't pin it to an attribute (besides hidden ambition/professionalism, I thought of checking work rate, for example).

 

 

 

[FrazT]

Maybe the players whose CA is not increasing have reached their PA?  The CA cannot exceed the PA

[inacion]

I think determination and work rate attributes will also influence training performances. I think coaches motivating atribute will also boost players training performace

[ImDaWeasel]

Only take up training slots with general training sessions in Physical, Defending and Attacking. All other training sessions are null n void.

[nexting]

19 hours ago, ImDaWeasel said:

Only take up training slots with general training sessions in Physical, Defending and Attacking. All other training sessions are null n void.

Care to elaborate on this?

[ImDaWeasel]

21 minutes ago, nexting said:

Care to elaborate on this?

No. Not really. 

Have a look at Evidence Based FM on YouTube and a similar thread on here.

[fc.cadoni]

Despite Determination, Ambition amd Professionalism are key attributes for player development; training facilities and coaches being having a good impact. As well as Injuries and Injury Prone etc.

Training Rating is not based only in training but pitch results as well. If you play bad, training rate will be lower.

 

[nexting]

18 hours ago, ImDaWeasel said:

No. Not really. 

Have a look at Evidence Based FM on YouTube and a similar thread on here.

OK.

Care to point me in the direction of this thread?

Edited September 6, 2022 by nexting

[DMVian]

On 04/09/2022 at 19:38, ImDaWeasel said:

Only take up training slots with general training sessions in Physical, Defending and Attacking. All other training sessions are null n void.

I haven't gone as pure as you, but now 80% of my not-set piece sessions are now those three. Small sample size, but training performance has jumped really high. Too early to tell if it will help development.

[XaW]

35 minutes ago, DMVian said:

I haven't gone as pure as you, but now 80% of my not-set piece sessions are now those three. Small sample size, but training performance has jumped really high. Too early to tell if it will help development.

The issue with a small sample size is that things doesn't happen in isolation. I mean I have the assistant take care of training and this my current ones:

Now, I don't know if my assistant is magical, his attributes doesn't make it likely, but this is also affected by everything linked to happiness, player personalities, and a whole lot more, in addition to the actual training setup of course. I think training setup is rather boring, so I don't micromanage it, but i do micromanage individual training since i enjoy it. I have no idea if there is an issue with general training or not, but I can say for certain that leaving it to the assistant does not mean it will be bad.

 

[2feet]

I think if you schedule a practise match in your training blocks, that can help improve attributes.

Also check their training scores and criticise the ones performing below 7-ish.

[ImDaWeasel]

6 hours ago, nexting said:

OK.

Care to point me in the direction of this thread?

Sure.

 

https://youtube.com/user/CocktailsMelbourne

[ImDaWeasel]

1 hour ago, 2feet said:

I think if you schedule a practise match in your training blocks, that can help improve attributes.

Also check their training scores and criticise the ones performing below 7-ish.

Match practice will improve attributes but has a bigger effect on the players condition than a general attack or defend training block will. Only use this midweek if you have no midweek game scheduled.

Praise above 8 and criticise below 7 every single week.

[ImDaWeasel]

2 hours ago, DMVian said:

I haven't gone as pure as you, but now 80% of my not-set piece sessions are now those three. Small sample size, but training performance has jumped really high. Too early to tell if it will help development.

They'll keep going up. And players will see attribute increases far more likely over the course of the season. Get rid of set piece sessions too. They are useless.

[ImDaWeasel]

23 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

Despite Determination, Ambition amd Professionalism are key attributes for player development; training facilities and coaches being having a good impact. As well as Injuries and Injury Prone etc.

Training Rating is not based only in training but pitch results as well. If you play bad, training rate will be lower.

 

Training rating ties in with player morale too. Low morale, low training rating. 

DAP is a huge benefit to have for young player development.

[DMVian]

3 minutes ago, ImDaWeasel said:

Match practice will improve attributes but has a bigger effect on the players condition than a general attack or defend training block will. Only use this midweek if you have no midweek game scheduled.

Praise above 8 and criticise below 7 every single week.

Other than the ability to praise/criticize, does it matter if a player is training well? I know it does in real life, but in the game?

I know berating young players for poor training/results can increase determination. 

[ImDaWeasel]

5 minutes ago, DMVian said:

Other than the ability to praise/criticize, does it matter if a player is training well? I know it does in real life, but in the game?

I know berating young players for poor training/results can increase determination. 

Yup it matters for attribute increases. Also increases their moral which then helps obviously.

Fining players for poor performances will increase determination.

[herne79]

38 minutes ago, ImDaWeasel said:

Sure.

 

https://youtube.com/user/CocktailsMelbourne

and @nexting

Regardless of what's been said above, SI made 2 separate comments in that thread which say:

"Just to be clear on this one, it is something we've looked into internally and found  the way the test was run means the results are basically just a result of variance in the match engine rather than a good measure of the impacts of training. 

That's not trying to dismiss the test at all as it has sparked some interesting and insightful conversation. But that's what we found after investigating."  Link.

Further:

"As an initial reaction, the way training is designed in game is so that it's designed to work realistically. If you set your entire team to only train say set pieces for weeks on end, the overall progression of players ability would be affected negatively, meaning attributes wouldn't rise to any great degree and most likely see a general drop off. The way attribute weighting works may show jumps in some areas which will be counter-balanced by drops elsewhere (overall CA should as said, remain consistent or drop, albeit in part dependent on a number of other factors - coaching/training facilities etc). Training is meant to use an overall balance in schedules to work over time, not be set in isolation. 

Looking at this video, this kind of control test where all the other factors that go into progression (player form, happiness etc) aren't considered, there's a strong chance that it won't really give the most accurate results."  Link.

As a follow up in a different thread the developers also said:

 "...we clearly explained why these tests are not accurate <snip> there's absolutely nothing seen internally that suggests there's a problem"  Link

Sorry for the off topic but saying aspects of training are null n void or useless and linking things without mentioning SI's response doesn't give a balanced view and could even be misleading.

[ImDaWeasel]

16 minutes ago, herne79 said:

and @nexting

Regardless of what's been said above, SI made 2 separate comments in that thread which say:

"Just to be clear on this one, it is something we've looked into internally and found  the way the test was run means the results are basically just a result of variance in the match engine rather than a good measure of the impacts of training. 

That's not trying to dismiss the test at all as it has sparked some interesting and insightful conversation. But that's what we found after investigating."  Link.

Further:

"As an initial reaction, the way training is designed in game is so that it's designed to work realistically. If you set your entire team to only train say set pieces for weeks on end, the overall progression of players ability would be affected negatively, meaning attributes wouldn't rise to any great degree and most likely see a general drop off. The way attribute weighting works may show jumps in some areas which will be counter-balanced by drops elsewhere (overall CA should as said, remain consistent or drop, albeit in part dependent on a number of other factors - coaching/training facilities etc). Training is meant to use an overall balance in schedules to work over time, not be set in isolation. 

Looking at this video, this kind of control test where all the other factors that go into progression (player form, happiness etc) aren't considered, there's a strong chance that it won't really give the most accurate results."  Link.

As a follow up in a different thread the developers also said:

 "...we clearly explained why these tests are not accurate <snip> there's absolutely nothing seen internally that suggests there's a problem"  Link

Sorry for the off topic but saying aspects of training are null n void or useless and linking things without mentioning SI's response doesn't give a balanced view and could even be misleading.

Its an opinion. Since changing my training I've noticed far better results after ditching "what I think" are useless training sessions whilst maintaining excellent results on the pitch on 4 different saves over a total of 12 seasons. Take it or leave it, like I really care. Just trying to help others.

[nexting]

21 hours ago, ImDaWeasel said:

Its an opinion. Since changing my training I've noticed far better results after ditching "what I think" are useless training sessions whilst maintaining excellent results on the pitch on 4 different saves over a total of 12 seasons. Take it or leave it, like I really care. Just trying to help others.

What do your training schedules look like?

[ImDaWeasel]

On 07/09/2022 at 19:15, nexting said:

What do your training schedules look like?

Apologies for the delay. Here they are. 

Individual Player training is the role they play along with whatever additional focus they need for that position.

[b2khn]

So i have been looking at the table of ebfm's last video.

There is a mistake in the placements of the rows. I later found again per session vallues. And I do have some takeaways from it.

There are some trainingsession in the light blue department that following his data don't have much of the gains.

One other finding is that matchprep is (attacking movement/defensive shape and training match) exeptional as attribute trainingsessions (By far better then attacking /defending), while they just don't cost that much in terms of intensity.

I do also share the position that the matchprep video was not of statistical relevance.

So guys, do your matchprep at the end of days, all week long. Don't use light blue and your golden.

If you want my results, you can find me in FM-Zweierkette Discord.

Have a great day, Ben.

Edited September 13, 2022 by b2khn