Understanding Line of Engagement & Defensive Line

[CKBrahMa]

Hi everyone,

I post here because, even if I start to have a great understanding of the game (after THOUSAND of hours on the game) I have still not figure out the Line of Engagement (LoE) and Defensive Line (DL).

i watched tons of videos or read stuff, but I’m not confident about how I understand it.

Let’s take an example : if I have pacy forwards, and a tactic that like to counter and eat the space, should I play with a lower LoE ?

If I have pacy defenders with poor aerial, should I play with high DL (you get the idea) ?

if so, is a high DL with a lower LoE works ? What would look like this IRL ?

 

I’m really here to understand and learn. I have a lot of « ideas » but I’m not sure they’re good. Like, for the example given, I remember a Zealand video saying that Low LoE and high DL is bad/very difficult, without knowing why ?

Futhermore, when we look at the tactic created (eg, RDF), they’re all pretty much high DL, high/higher LoE. Why is that ?

 

Thanks for your answer. And, just to be clear, I’m not here to name drop people who may have say/done errors like « look what they say, it’s wrong ».

I just want to understand and I gave example in that purpose.

[EnigMattic1]

I would assume, given the Zealand example, he would be referring to the amount of space behind the DL and in front of the LoE that particular mix would create.

My understanding is, LoE is how soon you "attack" the opposition when they have the ball and the DL is how close to the halfway line they are. I believe that your thinking is pretty sound and makes a lot of sense. If you have pacy defenders who can track back, you can afford to have that extra space behind the DL.

If you are looking to break on the counter, a high LoE would be a negative as your front line would already be high up the pitch.

Like I said, this is all just my understanding so I may be totally wrong with regards to what I have said.

[Tsuru]

So let´s go to the best possible source: FM´s manual. From the 21 version (which is here more at handy):
 

Line of Engagement

The Line of Engagement is where the forwards in your team begin to press the opposition to try to win the ball back. In combination with the Defensive Line, it allows you to control the team’s vertical compactness out of possession. The distance between the Defensive Line and the Line of Engagement is the amount of space you’re willing to allow the opposition to potentially play in if they’re able to beat your press and move the ball into attack.

 

Defensive Line

This instructs the defenders as to how high they should position themselves when the opposition have the ball in their own half. You can also set whether or not to Use Offside Trap, although this should generally be used in tandem with a higher line, else opponents will be able to make their move from positions closer to the goal and with a reduced risk of being caught offside.

Based on that we can try to answer some of your questions:

19 minutos atrás, CKBrahMa disse:

Let’s take an example : if I have pacy forwards, and a tactic that like to counter and eat the space, should I play with a lower LoE ?

A counter tactic can benefit from a lower LoE, yes. Why? Because according to FM´s manual your forwards will start the pressing lower on the pitch, which will help on compactness - as they will press near the midfielders.

But this is not "black and white". Why? Because you can counter with a higher LoE too, it is just a little bit different strategy and need a different setup. The LoE is a piece of the jigsaw, not the puzzle itself. Team instructions, formation, roles and duties need to fit together to create the strategy and this can be done in many ways.
 

23 minutos atrás, CKBrahMa disse:

If I have pacy defenders with poor aerial, should I play with high DL (you get the idea) ?

IMHO, to play a high line you ideally need excellent defenders which are good on everything. They should be fast, intelligent, good in anticipation, pacey and nice in the air, as opponents will try through balls, crossings and inverted balls to one flank to another to surpass your high DL. And when I say defenders it is not just the CBs, but also fullbacks and DM if you use one.

But again, this is not black and white. You may have poor to average defenders and still use a high line, because you want to play like that and are totally and full aware of the risk. So you don´t care if you concede because you simply want to play that way. This is a matter of risk and reward.
 

27 minutos atrás, CKBrahMa disse:

if so, is a high DL with a lower LoE works ? What would look like this IRL ?

I’m really here to understand and learn. I have a lot of « ideas » but I’m not sure they’re good. Like, for the example given, I remember a Zealand video saying that Low LoE and high DL is bad/very difficult, without knowing why ?

Yes, a high DL and lower LoE can work, because as I said it depends on the rest of your setup.

The risk here is that your strikers will press lower on the pitch, so opponents will have more space to operate near their own goal. Which means, a good and technical DM would have space and time to dictate the game. And at the same time your last defensive line will be higher on the pitch, so there will be also space available behind your fullbacks and CBs. That is, you would leave space ahead of your midfield and behind your DL for opponents to operate. Sometimes this can be too much space and allow them many ways of creating different goal opportunities ("routes to goal").

As I said it is a matter of risk and reward. If you need that setup for your tactic and are fully aware and confident of the risks, you should stick with it.

32 minutos atrás, CKBrahMa disse:

Futhermore, when we look at the tactic created (eg, RDF), they’re all pretty much high DL, high/higher LoE. Why is that ?

FM tends to favour high press, full attacking tactics. But as I said, DL and LoE are jigsaw pieces, I really think we need to see things more as pieces of a complete puzzle. Everything needs to be fit and well together to work fine.

 

35 minutos atrás, CKBrahMa disse:

I’m really here to understand and learn. I have a lot of « ideas » but I’m not sure they’re good.

You need to test and see. Have you tried to watch some games in full mode and see what happens? Select some instructions, roles, duties, Tis, change them and see what changes on the field. That is the best exercise you can do.

[DarJ]

24 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

IMHO, to play a high line you ideally need excellent defenders which are good on everything.

You also want your GK to have high "rushing out" with good acceleration and pace. A GK with low rushing out is more likely going to stay back and you don't necessarily want that when playing with a high line, you want an Alisson. The downside tho is that he might come off his line when he isn't supposed to

[Johnny Ace]

It's not as simple as fast strikers, Lower LOE, slow defenders, Lower DL. Player mental attributes are an important factor ie slow defenders can deal with playing a higher DL because they know exactly where to be at all times   

[Rashidi]

3 hours ago, EnigMattic1 said:

I would assume, given the Zealand example, he would be referring to the amount of space behind the DL and in front of the LoE that particular mix would create.

My understanding is, LoE is how soon you "attack" the opposition when they have the ball and the DL is how close to the halfway line they are. I believe that your thinking is pretty sound and makes a lot of sense. If you have pacy defenders who can track back, you can afford to have that extra space behind the DL.

If you are looking to break on the counter, a high LoE would be a negative as your front line would already be high up the pitch.

Like I said, this is all just my understanding so I may be totally wrong with regards to what I have said.

LOE - a line that is triggered by your strikers in relation to where the opposition are. If its very much higher, your strikers look to start the press as soon as possible. 
DL - Basically tells your players how the position themselves with respect to your goal. A lower defensive line tells them to make sure the gap between the goal and the team is as small as possible. The DL in turn affects how your team support the midfield as well.  Since the defensive line affects your buildup play ( players positioning re goal), on lower defensive lines you could find gaps emerging between defence and midfield

If you take heatmaps on much lower defensive line and much higher defensive line and just snap pics of when your team has to drop back to defend, they will always drop to the same areas. The defensive line basically acts as a limiter when your team has the ball. When you are playing with a much higher defensive line you could see your central defenders sitting near the half way line when you have the ball.

Compression happens when the defensive line and LOE are working together. If you add the offside  trap this compression affects playable area, making the region behind the last line of defenders unplayable. The interaction between the defensive line and the LOE create this compression, which is why gegenpresing is set up with very high defensive lines and LOEs. The expectation in this case is to form a small zone of compression higher up the pitch, and the offside trap acts as the limiter.

When you want to drop or go defensive all Ineed to do in most games is to:
Remove Prevent Short GK
Lower the LOE and make sure the DL is set to around standard. 
Remove offside trap, so the zone of compression drops with the ball.  That way i can still make myself compact and hard to play through.


A low DL and a LOW LOE basically tells your team this:
Backline don't move too far up the pitch when we have the ball. That low DL affects them offensively and defensively. Its one of my pet peeves of the tactical creator that the DL is reflected as a off the ball thinggie, when every single role in the game has its own DL.
A low LOE tells your strikers not to press too early and wait for the appropriate time to.

The issue with this is you are creating a deep block, but this is formation dependant, so it really depends on your roles, duties, and mentality. It could be a bad idea, however I have also managed to create door bolt systems where I am looking to defend a lead. And, I drop my dl to the lowest notch and my LOE to the lowest notch, I shift my 433 into a 4141 and tell my players to close down on neutral and sometimes even less, stay on feet. My team is told to just hoof the ball. Its a stupid way to play and I really hate it, cos it only encourages sides to attack you relentlessly if they are good.  

You will generally find that its MUCH easier to play aggressively, ie play with higher lines. Yes, but you can also incorporate styles within that to see off games. My personal favorite right now is to drop to defensive mentality and do the slight chances I alluded to earlier.

Ultimately whether you want to play these LOW lines depends on your defenders having great concentration, anticipation and positioning, If they can't you could be in trouble.

[CARRERA]

3 hours ago, Rashidi said:

The defensive line basically acts as a limiter when your team has the ball. When you are playing with a much higher defensive line you could see your central defenders sitting near the half way line when you have the ball.

Are you actually sure about this? It varies heavily from what SI says in their manual as @Tsuru quoted above. Usually when in possession, the Defensive Line (in terms of players, not instruction) will adjust their positioning based on mentality and the general positioning of your team to remain compact. The Defensive Line Instruction however, tells something about the positioning of your backline if you are out of possession to compress the pitch and allow for a higher pressing line for example. It should have no effects on when in possession. 

[Rashidi]

8 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Are you actually sure about this? It varies heavily from what SI says in their manual as @Tsuru quoted above. Usually when in possession, the Defensive Line (in terms of players, not instruction) will adjust their positioning based on mentality and the general positioning of your team to remain compact. The Defensive Line Instruction however, tells something about the positioning of your backline if you are out of possession to compress the pitch and allow for a higher pressing line for example. It should have no effects on when in possession. 

I am absolutely sure, the defensive line does affect you when you have the ball.  Its something that has always been a factor in the game, which is why we used to and sometimes still get information from the assistant manager regarding gaps. I had a thread on the forums a while back, may have been a post in someones thread where I linked a lot of images. I will just link a few now cos, its a fair amount of work. Playing with a 442 I set up my lines like this.

When we have the ball and are in the opponents half you will typically see your defenders take up safer areas. Now since we are very deep the chances of us camping are next to low in the opponents half. Here we have lost the ball and are defending, but even at this point, while my players are dropping you will see in the next image that one of the players will  press. The pressing is a result of the TI and the specific role and duty.


A player of ours, (blue) has gone to press the opposition.

When we have the ball and are moving the ball up, you see the beginnings of the gap caused by the DL, this isn't so bad as we are still playing with a low LOE but our much lower DL also affects how the midfield transitions when we get the ball back. We were playing on balanced mentality. And yes,  mentality will affect to some extent the transition, but the effects of the TIs are more pronounced. Once the ball moves higher in the same transition. You can still see large gaps, but note the positioning of the central defenders.





I could have kept playing hoping for the central defenders to push up, but I know that the DL is acting as a limiter. So i changed the TIs


Now the offside trap works with the DL and the LOE, you can see my central defenders are positioned even higher.


I did this all in like 15 mins, but I think the last time i explained this I spent a few hours testing and verifying the relationship between defensive lines and line of engagements.

The defensive line will affect your team when you have the ball. While it does influence where your players drop when you dont have the ball, a lot of this depends on the formation the opposition are using and where the ball is. If the ball is down

the flanks regardless of your defensive line, your team usually ends up defending the same way. 

The DL and the LOE work together to create a zone of compression. You won't find me denying that, but the offside trap also plays a big part in this especially for systems that seek to play higher in the opponents half.

Whenever I want to create ball playing defenders who attack the opponents near the edge of the area or bomb down the flanks, I normally play on much higher defensive lines.

 

 

[Aoyao]

there is a difrence mentality of DL & LOE

 

so，you are right.

 

Here's a question about counterattack，how does it work,when I ues LOW TEMPO &SHORT PASS.

[CARRERA]

15 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I am absolutely sure, the defensive line does affect you when you have the ball.

Well I did a quick test myself. But I really didnt notice any difference while my team was in possession. I took two screenshots of the left WB trying to flank and where the team most likely finished transition. What I noticed tho, was my defenders immediately stepping up or falling back after possession was turned over. Eventhough I didnt look after this in particular, the positioning of the oppositions striker should also matter and influence how high your player might move up the pitch.

Im not trying to argue against you, but I just want to get this clear as its very confusing. And I still wonder why both the game and the Manual relate to DL only affecting Out of Possession behavior.

LOE Higher, DL Much Higher

Spoiler

LOE Higher, DL Much Lower

Spoiler

 

15 hours ago, Rashidi said:

When we have the ball and are moving the ball up, you see the beginnings of the gap caused by the DL, this isn't so bad as we are still playing with a low LOE but our much lower DL also affects how the midfield transitions when we get the ball back.

Maybe I dont understand exactly what you mean, but LOE also doesnt affect in possession behavior.

15 hours ago, Rashidi said:

the flanks regardless of your defensive line, your team usually ends up defending the same way.

Relating to official SI Sources, the DL does only affect your defense if the opposition has the ball in their own half. There is no effect if the ball already transitioned into your own half anyway

"Defensive Line

This instructs the defenders as to how high they should position themselves when the opposition have the ball in their own half."

And it does make sense that way. Gaps appear while defending, ifyour pressing line is high and attackers/midfielders move towards the ball while your defensive line drops. If the ball already transitioned into your half, you cant defend with a high line anyway. The Lines basicly indicate how deep your players are willing to fall back before stalling the opposition.

 

//Edit: I'm just confused about why SI either can't be transparent on what their Instructions actually do, or why their official sources are wrong, or why their mods differ from official sources. Pick whatever is correct.

Edited August 24, 2022 by CARRERA

[bosque]

It would be so much easier if we just have the option of "low block, medium block, high block" instead of giving us the chance to mess everything up with high loe and low DL