How do you help a 16 year old youth player who has low determination?

[2feet]

His personality is Low Determination and he has 4 for determination.

Hes not good enough to be in the senior squad so I cant mentor him.

If I moved him to the senior squad his training would suffer because my senior coaches are not good working with youngsters.

So is he just stuck on low determination amd I cant help him?

He actually has a decent PA but his CA is stuck waaaaay down low.

[mikelfc8]

One way is to fine him for poor match performances.

Poor performance fines -

6.5 - Warning

6.4 - 1 day fine

6.3 - 1 day fine

6.2 or below - 1 week fine.

2 week fines can causes happiness issues.

Treat each fine as an isolated case. Players don't remember previous fines.

If the player responds well he can get a bump in determination and/or work rate

[Dotsworthy]

If he is in the youth team, you can still discipline the player for poor performances which can provide a boost to his determination, but be wary of fining them above a warning unless they are in the senior squad.

Your player can still improve, if he keeps playing well in the youth team and his professionalism and ambition are decent it might counteract it until you can intervene directly.

[ImDaWeasel]

If his CA is that low then the chances of him getting anywhere near the decent PA is slim to none. Get rid and stop wasting your time. 

[2feet]

8 minutes ago, ImDaWeasel said:

If his CA is that low then the chances of him getting anywhere near the decent PA is slim to none. Get rid and stop wasting your time. 

Shouldnt FM allow for some gameplay here?

I mean its an attrative narrative, taking a young hopeless player and turning him around?

There must be at least some examples in real life when this has happened?

For the game to simply discard low determination youths doesnt just feel a bit cruel but also not quite accurate, and a missed oportunity for a cool managerial challenge to fix the player.

 

[2feet]

20 hours ago, mikelfc8 said:

One way is to fine him for poor match performances.

Poor performance fines -

 

6.5 - Warning

 

6.4 - 1 day fine

 

6.3 - 1 day fine

 

6.2 or below - 1 week fine.

2 week fines can causes happiness issues.

 

 

 

Treat each fine as an isolated case. Players don't remember previous fines.

If the player responds well he can get a bump in determination and/or work rate

 

I think you can only disciplaine when the score is 6.4 or below.

If a player hovers around 6.5 and 6.6, you can only criticise recent form which only seems to boost the average by 0.1 or 0.2.

[vikeologist]

8 minutes ago, 2feet said:

I think you can only discipline when the score is 6.4 or below.

If a player hovers around 6.5 and 6.6, you can only criticise recent form which only seems to boost the average by 0.1 or 0.2.

No, you can fine for 6.5, but as above, you should only give a warning.

I don't see ny difference between first and reserve/youth teams.

Not every player will get a bump every time, and some personalities / players will take it badly. Generally though, this works fine for getting determination up. If a player usually puts in good performances though, make sure you arrange tough preseason friendlies. Or just play them out of position, though that's a bit too 'unrealistic' for me personally.

[phnompenhandy]

23 minutes ago, ImDaWeasel said:

If his CA is that low then the chances of him getting anywhere near the decent PA is slim to none. Get rid and stop wasting your time. 

I mean, if he's a youth and being paid buttons, and he's not blocking another kids from starting youth matches, then what's the harm. But I wouldn't waste time on him either. I demand determination and professionalism from all my youths.

[mikelfc8]

18 minutes ago, 2feet said:

I think you can only disciplaine when the score is 6.4 or below.

If a player hovers around 6.5 and 6.6, you can only criticise recent form which only seems to boost the average by 0.1 or 0.2.

It seems to vary a bit with 6.5. Sometimes you can discipline and sometimes you can only warn.

I wonder if it it has something to do with the micro-increments that we cannot see in the match engine calculations - 6.51389 vs 6.57984 - or something similar to that?

[ImDaWeasel]

32 minutes ago, 2feet said:

Shouldnt FM allow for some gameplay here?

I mean its an attrative narrative, taking a young hopeless player and turning him around?

There must be at least some examples in real life when this has happened?

For the game to simply discard low determination youths doesnt just feel a bit cruel but also not quite accurate, and a missed oportunity for a cool managerial challenge to fix the player.

 

If you are able to view a CA and PA then you are already deviating from a realistic game. You want accuracy? Judge a player yourself.

[ImDaWeasel]

18 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

I mean, if he's a youth and being paid buttons, and he's not blocking another kids from starting youth matches, then what's the harm. But I wouldn't waste time on him either. I demand determination and professionalism from all my youths.

Takes up coaching time and can affect the potential of other wonderkid in your setup if the youth team isnt winning alot. 

Totally agree. Only the best you can get your hands on should be in your youth.

[2feet]

8 hours ago, ImDaWeasel said:

If you are able to view a CA and PA then you are already deviating from a realistic game. You want accuracy? Judge a player yourself.

I never said I wanted accuracy.

I said I wanted the game to make it possible somehow for low determination players to be improved so they can become successful.

Whether anyone plays with the editor or not is besides the point.

[Marko1989]

12 hours ago, 2feet said:

Shouldnt FM allow for some gameplay here?

I mean its an attrative narrative, taking a young hopeless player and turning him around?

There must be at least some examples in real life when this has happened?

For the game to simply discard low determination youths doesnt just feel a bit cruel but also not quite accurate, and a missed oportunity for a cool managerial challenge to fix the player.

 

That is the biggest issue with current player development system. Even at the age of 16 for example you can already know if player will grow into good player or not.  Your problem is low determination, and my problem is low PA. After a couple of saves I can learn which players have high PA and then at the very start of the player career, if I know that player has no big PA I already know there is no point of giving him playing time because PA will not change and he is doomed to be bad player from very young age.

That is the big issue with fixed Potential Ability. Even the bigger issue is that the people are satisfied with this primitive development system and fixed PA. Similar to what you have, with determination so low, you already know at 16 year of age is it questionable if he will become a good player. ( even I read somewhere that ambition, PA, and professionalism are more important than determination )

[HUNT3R]

2 hours ago, Marko1989 said:

( even I read somewhere that ambition, PA, and professionalism are more important than determination )

This isn't correct. Ambition, Determination and Professionalism are equal in terms of development. These attributes have other effects, but in terms of development, they're equal in importance.

 

[Cal585]

1 hour ago, Marko1989 said:

That is the biggest issue with current player development system. Even at the age of 16 for example you can already know if player will grow into good player or not.  

You don't think academy coaches have educated guesses about the rough talent potential for a player by the time they reach their mid to late teens? That's all the PA stars are. I've heard plenty of interviews with people saying that so and so was a special talent when he came through and they could see him breaking through into the first team or going on to big things. Managers don't seem to invest a heap of time into young players that aren't already similar standard to their existing squad players or have glowing reviews which is the complaint you have. And my experience of players that have had high CA but low PA is that they get high PA stars anyway that gradually dwindle over time. I've also had 2.5 and 3 star PA players who have had the actual PA to be the best player on my first team.

Sure the current system has flaws but it's doing a reasonable job. Mechanically I think assigning a random talent ceiling thats specific to your game world to players isn't so bad. Not as convinced by some of the exact numbers on well known wonderkids but don't feel strongly on it.

 

As for Determination, given it is the application of a player when things get tough, I can imagine it's very important in how they develop but also that youth teams might not have as much pressure and adversity to negatively impact the player too much where they can rely on their raw talent to succeed? Just conjecture as haven't invested a heap of time into such players. In addition to warnings and mentoring, squad character will also affect him. If you have a lot of determined and influential characters and leaders then he will naturally improve from their example.

[vikeologist]

15 hours ago, mikelfc8 said:

It seems to vary a bit with 6.5. Sometimes you can discipline and sometimes you can only warn.

I wonder if it it has something to do with the micro-increments that we cannot see in the match engine calculations - 6.51389 vs 6.57984 - or something similar to that?

I always assumed it was because you can only fine a player once a week. I think that sometimes you can't fine all the lower performances, but I'm unaware of any occasion where I could warn but not fine.

Edited August 12, 2022 by vikeologist

[phnompenhandy]

2 hours ago, vikeologist said:

I'm unaware of any occasion where I could warn but not fine.

Try managing an amateur side   ;-)

[herne79]

Whilst Determination can indeed be an important factor in player development, it’s just one factor of many which will contribute to that development and thus having low Determination is not the end of the world.  Players with low Determination can and do develop into decent players.  Even players who have low Determination, Ambition and Professionalism can still develop well.

I’ll give a slightly different perspective: lets say I’m managing a 4th tier team and in my youth intake I get a high potential player with great Determination, Ambition and Professionalism - pretty much the ideal young player to develop.  But if he stays at my team in the 4th tier it’s unlikely he’ll ever fulfil his potential, despite him having such great attributes.  That’s because he plays in the 4th tier.  Playing at a relevant level is another factor in player development.  So from this example I’m trying to demonstrate that Determination is not the be all and end all.

Can it help?  Yes of course, but it’s just one of many factors.

Another example - I currently have a young player who has an “Unambitious” personality yet he’s come nicely through my youth ranks and is just about to become one of my first choice central defenders (I’m managing a regular Champions League side).  And yet Ambition plays a practically equal role to Determination in player development.  So how has he developed so well?  Because it’s just one of many factors and the other factors I’ve been using (such as quality of training facilities, coaches, match time at a relevant level and so on) have still promoted such development.  Could he have developed even better with good Ambition?  Possibly yes but going from a 16 year old in my youth intake to first choice pick at age 20 isn’t bad going.

TL;DR yes Determination is an important attribute but there’s no need to give up on a player if it’s low 👍.

[2feet]

In the old system, a low determination player could be mentored by a senior pro, one to one.

His determination attribute might then go up 3,4,5,6? points.

You cant do that anymore, unless you move a low determination U18 player into the senior squad and then put him in a mentor group.

Is this what the game is now expecting us to do with these U18 players?

Because his training will suffer in the senior squad with coaches that have poor scores for working with youngesters.

[herne79]

40 minutes ago, 2feet said:

Because his training will suffer in the senior squad with coaches that have poor scores for working with youngesters.

Not necessarily no.  Take a look at the two young players below that I've had in my first team squad for 2 years now.  They get some first team matches but mostly play for the U23s although Godwin is about to become a first choice pick for the senior team.  And if Leslie keeps developing as he is he'll become my first choice left back soon.  Both came through my club's youth intakes.

Including U23 manager/assistant, GK and Fitness coaches, I have 14 "coaches" coaching my senior squad - just 5 have a WWY rating of 15 or more.

This doesn't make a mockery of Training.  What it shows is the training module is very complex with many many factors affecting it - some of which can impact others, some of which can help mitigate shortfalls.  I'm sure the two players below could have developed even faster than they have given "ideal" conditions but training is based on realism and realistically having "ideal" conditions is very unlikely.

In short, don't just assume that lacking in a certain area or two means players will suffer .

[2feet]

WWY has little effect on the development of players under 18?

Whats the point of it then?

[mikelfc8]

16 hours ago, vikeologist said:

I always assumed it was because you can only fine a player once a week. I think that sometimes you can't fine all the lower performances, but I'm unaware of any occasion where I could warn but not fine.

Just had Luis Diaz get a 6.5 but the option to fine him was not there. His last fine was over a month ago, so it doesn't seem to be related to fining only once a week, at least in this instance.

I was able to warn him about his performance  - 'our forwards were feeding off scraps etc.'

[Dricky]

 You can actually jugde players PA by their price tag, if jude cost 1,26 Bill he got svive 180 PA. If tanguy cost 400+ hes got above 160  kinda not realistic that this happens with the prices

 

[herne79]

9 hours ago, 2feet said:

WWY has little effect on the development of players under 18?

I didn’t say that.

15 hours ago, herne79 said:

I have 14 "coaches" coaching my senior squad - just 5 have a WWY rating of 15 or more.

This doesn't make a mockery of Training.  What it shows is the training module is very complex with many many factors affecting it - some of which can impact others, some of which can help mitigate shortfalls

I also said I’m sure the players could have developed even faster given ideal conditions 👍.

Edited August 13, 2022 by herne79

[2feet]

OK i see, thanks

[mikcheck]

Em 12/08/2022 em 16:17, herne79 disse:

 

Godwin looks really promising and ready for 1st team football. Still using 442 or 433 with your West Ham side? 

[herne79]

2 hours ago, mikcheck said:

Godwin looks really promising and ready for 1st team football. Still using 442 or 433 with your West Ham side? 

Yes a possession based 433 (aka 4123DM) .