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Amount of teams in top division

Celtic501
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Celtic501

Celtic501

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What do you think the ideal amount of teams in a top division or any division for that matter should be?

I think 24 is the most really and 18 or 20 seems good for a top division. 

 

Just curious what people think, I'm always modifying.. 

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Speedyol

Speedyol

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One question popped into my head; Why are some amounts better than other? well amount of matches per season, and how many times per year you meet the other teams. 

I think it need to be at least 10 teams. Irish Premier Division has 10 teams and I like that league very much. They play 36 matches per season, meeting eacother 4 times a year (9*4=36).

I also like 16 teams like in Norway, that way you probably get 30 matches per year and fewer weeks with 2 matches in a single week.

Im currently managing STM Sports who was disbanded and quit playing in real life, In Wales. They have 12 teams and 32 matches per year. Its a very fun way to play and challanging because of the low level and forcing of youth in the match squad.

 

Why do you think 18 or 20 is good? what is your reason behind it? Is it anything other than amount of matches per season, and how many times per year you meet the other teams. 

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rusty217

rusty217

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I'm a big fan of 20. Although I'm starting to lean more towards 18. 18 makes sense given the increasing number of matches everywhere else, if a few can be cut from somewhere then they probably should be. But looking at any of the major 20 team leagues and I wouldn't be able to point to two teams and say get rid of them. Especially an issue in countries like Brazil where you have big historic teams like Cruzeiro and Gremio that can't even make the current 20 in Serie A, who else would be missing if it was cut to 18?

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Celtic501

Celtic501

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On 19/06/2022 at 23:03, Speedyol said:

One question popped into my head; Why are some amounts better than other? well amount of matches per season, and how many times per year you meet the other teams. 

I think it need to be at least 10 teams. Irish Premier Division has 10 teams and I like that league very much. They play 36 matches per season, meeting eacother 4 times a year (9*4=36).

I also like 16 teams like in Norway, that way you probably get 30 matches per year and fewer weeks with 2 matches in a single week.

Im currently managing STM Sports who was disbanded and quit playing in real life, In Wales. They have 12 teams and 32 matches per year. Its a very fun way to play and challanging because of the low level and forcing of youth in the match squad.

 

Why do you think 18 or 20 is good? what is your reason behind it? Is it anything other than amount of matches per season, and how many times per year you meet the other teams. 

I suppose its interesting having leagues with different team numbers as it gives a good dynamic. I think 16-20 is about right. At least 30 games a season for me but 38 being the most I'd be willing to play. The longer the league, I personally start to get bored by the amount of games. To note I'm not a fan of 10 or 12 team leagues as I don't like the idea of a team playing each other 4 times, it's a bug bear I have with the Scottish league for example. 

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Celtic501

Celtic501

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On 20/06/2022 at 01:05, rusty217 said:

I'm a big fan of 20. Although I'm starting to lean more towards 18. 18 makes sense given the increasing number of matches everywhere else, if a few can be cut from somewhere then they probably should be. But looking at any of the major 20 team leagues and I wouldn't be able to point to two teams and say get rid of them. Especially an issue in countries like Brazil where you have big historic teams like Cruzeiro and Gremio that can't even make the current 20 in Serie A, who else would be missing if it was cut to 18?

I have to agree, I think the 18 model is a good one, as well as 16 for most leagues. The top leagues wouldn't go lower than 20 in reality due to tv revenue and clubs losing out on match day income. However with the growing number of continental,  international and cup tournaments particularly in England 20 is becoming a bit of a stretch now.

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rusty217

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On 23/06/2022 at 10:14, Celtic501 said:

I have to agree, I think the 18 model is a good one, as well as 16 for most leagues. The top leagues wouldn't go lower than 20 in reality due to tv revenue and clubs losing out on match day income. However with the growing number of continental,  international and cup tournaments particularly in England 20 is becoming a bit of a stretch now.

You never know. Germany is already at 18 and France is shifting to 18 next season. At least 1 of England, Spain and or Italy also going down in the near future certainly seems possible, especially with an increasing number of European games in the near future.

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Celtic501

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On 24/06/2022 at 23:31, rusty217 said:

You never know. Germany is already at 18 and France is shifting to 18 next season. At least 1 of England, Spain and or Italy also going down in the near future certainly seems possible, especially with an increasing number of European games in the near future.

I didn't realise France is going down to 18. Have they given a reason for this? 

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Draakon

Draakon

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In reality, the first factor is always competitiveness of the league and clubs that get promoted to it. There's no point in expanding the top division when the country lacks professional clubs. And nobody wants to see hockey scores like 7:0 or 10:0 every other match day when difference in class gets too big between clubs.

The second is money, of course. At least in Estonia (my home country) the registration fees for top division clubs is much higher than in lower divisions. So, if you get promoted, you need more sponsors or additional income which is difficult to find in a (football-wise) small country. Again, in Estonia there have been cases when promoted teams have given up their spot in the top division because they just can't find enough money or as an amateur or semi-professional club don't want to compete againt professional teams.

That's why in smaller countries the size of the league varies between 8-16 teams - that's usually the amount of teams that the given country can "support" - meaning, there's enough professional footballers for that amount of clubs, and sponsors for the league to be financially sustainable. I remember that Holland have actually struggled to sustain two professional leagues with 18 teams each (they allowed reserve teams of bigger clubs to participate in the second division to make it more competitive).

So, in a sense less may be more in football - better smaller league, but at least there's equal competition. The number of games is no problem - as quoted before, it's easy to get 36 games in a 10-team league, just play each other 4 times. The final number of games is not so much different from big leagues and calendar looks quite similar. 

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rusty217

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3 hours ago, Celtic501 said:

I didn't realise France is going down to 18. Have they given a reason for this? 

The expanded UCL was their reason. I believe they were actually annoyed that the new UCL league format was reduced to 8 games from the proposed 10, since they specifically decreased their number of teams in preparation for more European games.

As for how many you can have in the game, how many do you want? If you want double round robin then around 30 teams would be about the most you should use (assuming no continental/cup competitions) due to fixture congestion.

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Celtic501

Celtic501

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12 hours ago, rusty217 said:

The expanded UCL was their reason. I believe they were actually annoyed that the new UCL league format was reduced to 8 games from the proposed 10, since they specifically decreased their number of teams in preparation for more European games.

As for how many you can have in the game, how many do you want? If you want double round robin then around 30 teams would be about the most you should use (assuming no continental/cup competitions) due to fixture congestion.

Fair enough, the French league has changed it's format quite a few times. I'm not sure, i'm thinking of creating a league system with 1024 clubs from around the world and of course i'm thinking of getting as many into the top division as possible. That's a good shout, I was thinking 32 teams would be the limit. (62 games, with a few cup games, plus internationals)

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\'Appy \'Ammer

\'Appy \'Ammer

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18 for me is ideal considering the amount of other matches that need to be squeezed in. I've also actually grown to like the league splits in 12 team leagues, for example Northern Ireland. It makes those last 5 matches far more competitive and meaningful.

Better still reduce the amount of country's that qualify for a World Cup. 32 is spot on I wish they weren't going to change it 

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