Evidence Based FM's testing seems to show that Match Prep sessions increase the likelihood of losing the next match compared to no training at all. Is this a bug or something else?

[rsihn]

 

[Neil Brock]

Interesting stuff. Have mentioned it to our QA team so they can take a look at the video  

[Platinum]

My initial thoughts are that as only one match prep slot is used it will likely have a negligible effect and also the training slot will make the players conditions a bit worse than the other team who had no training. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Platinum

[enigmatic]

1 hour ago, Platinum said:

My initial thoughts are that as only one match prep slot is used it will likely have a negligible effect and also the training slot will make the players conditions a bit worse than the other team who had no training. 

Yup.

They're roles which used regularly over time remove team cohesion issues, and they definitely work in that respect (you can cram them into busy schedules as well, as apart from Match Practice they don't use much condition). 

 

But a single session... not going to do much. And especially not going to do much if their team cohesion/morale etc has all been maxed out like it looks like the demo team did...

[ImDaWeasel]

Love how this guy shows up how the game actually works. Will be adjusting my training from now on to get the best results. Bye bye match tactics, preview and teamwork.

[JordanMilly]

24 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

And especially not going to do much if their team cohesion/morale etc has all been maxed out like it looks like the demo team did...

Yea, that automatically biases the results of the experiment, because it removes the main benefit of that training option.

[fc.cadoni]

Seems like Teamwork and Match Tactics is waste of time; in their position can be replaced with something more rewarding in terms of attributes. Like General Attacking or General Defending or General Goalkeeping; which increase team cohesion as well. Will be interesting to see - hear his results in terms of combination schedules. 

[Platinum]

44 minutes ago, ImDaWeasel said:

Love how this guy shows up how the game actually works. Will be adjusting my training from now on to get the best results. Bye bye match tactics, preview and teamwork.

I wouldn't recommend making any changes to your training based on the experiment due to the reasons I and other gave in this thread

[fc.cadoni]

25 minutes ago, Platinum said:

I wouldn't recommend making any changes to your training based on the experiment due to the reasons I and other gave in this thread

Can safely remove match tactics and teamwork, general ones from attacking/defending/goalkeeping offer the same plus tactical familiarity. In last minutes shows the impact on attributes and really teamwork and match tactics is waste of time.

[phnompenhandy]

7 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

Can safely remove match tactics and teamwork, general ones from attacking/defending/goalkeeping offer the same plus tactical familiarity. In last minutes shows the impact on attributes and really teamwork and match tactics is waste of time.

Don't think I'll be taking them out until this experiment is analysed properly. I'm a lower league manager with naff all facilities and coaches, with players on short-term contracts. I habitually use all 7 next-match schedules (inc. match review), seemingly to good effect.

However, if you do take them out, consider replacing them with set piece units as they boost the upcoming game AND have long-term benefits (and don't take up much conditioning)

Edited June 14, 2022 by phnompenhandy

[jacob_m_mack]

if i had to guess why it's causing him to drop games it's actually BECAUSE it improves his tactical familiarity, and he's likely using a bad tactic that he quickly threw together for the purposes of testing. Like say for example he has CBs with take fewer risks and dribble less in their player instructions. If he does the Teamwork training then the player's tactical familiarity is boosted AND their teamwork attribute (which affects their ability to follow player instructions) is boosted. As a result, his CBs are going to dribble less and take fewer risks relative to their opposition, which in this case will make them much worse as they have 15s across the board and thus are very smart, technical CBs who should be taking more risks and dribbling more. And as for the City vs Leicester game in that instance the sample size is deflated in a sense, because the significant results for this test are the Leicester wins and there are so few of them to begin with, so honestly those results can be discarded.

I think that redoing the test with worse players and a better tactic would be worthwhile though tbf, I'm very skeptical that teamwork as an attribute is worth boosting as Tactical Familiarity should essentially serve the same purpose as it and that can be acquired through both playing matches and doing training sessions that actually improve your players' important attributes.

[fc.cadoni]

4 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

Don't think I'll be taking them out until this experiment is analysed properly. I'm a lower league manager with naff all facilities and coaches, with players on short-term contracts. I habitually use all 7 next-match schedules (inc. match review), seemingly to good effect.

However, if you do take them out, consider replacing them with set piece units as they boost the upcoming game AND have long-term benefits (and don't take up much conditioning)

I was more talking about match tactics, teamwork; not match review/preview. As for tactical familiarity, after 3-4 matches in pre-season can easily gain 90% via playing the games and train the players according to their roles (so Att. Movement, Def. Positioning can boost here). 

[ImDaWeasel]

11 hours ago, Platinum said:

I wouldn't recommend making any changes to your training based on the experiment due to the reasons I and other gave in this thread

Yeah, your very detailed initial thoughts did make me completely change my mind. All I'll do is teamwork and match tactics......

[Daniel Evensen]

21 hours ago, Platinum said:

My initial thoughts are that as only one match prep slot is used it will likely have a negligible effect and also the training slot will make the players conditions a bit worse than the other team who had no training. 

Actually, there is no impact on condition.  He shows this in the video.  Surprisingly, Match Practice, which many of us have stayed away from because of the impact on conditioning, has been shown to have absolutely no impact on conditioning.

After Max's earlier video, I changed my training plan, moving away from Overall and Outfield to hitting the team heaving with Attacking, Defending, Physical, and the occasional Goalkeeping session.  My players now routinely hit 9.0 or better in training, even when disgruntled.  My experience has validated his results.

I've also noticed that most injuries seem to come from Match Preparation / Match Tactics sessions and the like.  The sessions that the game claims are physically demanding very rarely result in any injuries.

Others have brought up tactical familiarity.  My experience is that the best way to increase tactical familiarity in the season is to frequently hold matches.  Two matches a week in the preseason tends to build tactical familiarity much faster than any of the trainings that are described as building tactical familiarity.

As others have noted, I suppose you could make an argument that combining Match Preview, Teamwork, Match Tactics and the like has a strong compounding impact on tactical familiarity or training that we're not seeing in this experiment.  That strikes me as something that would not be difficult to test.  In response, I can only note that I've seen much better responses once I put Max's findings into practice in my training.

[Guest]

I think Match Preparation like Training has an accumulative effect over time so you're not going to see results with just one session.

[phnompenhandy]

10 minutes ago, FunAdapter.exe said:

I think Match Preparation like Training has an accumulative effect over time so you're not going to see results with just one session.

Er, no!  Match Prep is sold to us as preparation for the NEXT match - a boost to that game with no lingering benefits. It's the other sessions that have longterm impact, allegedly.

 

 

Daniel - I changed my training this morning to do what you've done and in my first pre-season I've been massacred with injuries. If you use 2 general sessions per day, what do you do in your third slot? Maybe that's where I'm overdoing things.

[Daniel Evensen]

24 minutes ago, FunAdapter.exe said:

I think Match Preparation like Training has an accumulative effect over time so you're not going to see results with just one session.

To be honest, I've moved past the point of speculating on what could happen.  Whatever the true result of training sessions are, it is clear that the descriptions in FM themselves cannot be trusted.  As I said before, it would not be difficult to construct an experiment to see whether match preparation training has a cumulative impact or not.  I doubt it, however, since Max showed quite conclusively that it has no real impact on a single training basis.

12 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Daniel - I changed my training this morning to do what you've done and in my first pre-season I've been massacred with injuries. If you use 2 general sessions per day, what do you do in your third slot? Maybe that's where I'm overdoing things.

This is good to know – I haven't actually tried this in preseason yet.  During the season, I've had a daily schedule of Attacking - Defending - Physical, with Goalkeeping / Community Service / Team Bonding thrown in here and there in place of Physical.  Almost all of the injuries have come during things like Teamwork, Match Tactics, and those other match preparation sessions that I schedule closer to games.  However, now that we know that most of the match preparation training has no real impact, I'm starting to wonder if having two sessions a day with rest isn't the optimal approach.

Some on Discord have surmised that keeping training on "normal intensity" might help, rather than going to "double intensity" for fully-rested players.  The theory is that "double intensity" only helps with players who are over 27 years old.  Again, I haven't seen any actual evidence of this.

[fc.cadoni]

11 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Er, no!  Match Prep is sold to us as preparation for the NEXT match - a boost to that game with no lingering benefits. It's the other sessions that have longterm impact, allegedly.

 

 

Daniel - I changed my training this morning to do what you've done and in my first pre-season I've been massacred with injuries. If you use 2 general sessions per day, what do you do in your third slot? Maybe that's where I'm overdoing things.

From the manual about Extra Session:

Extra Sessions quickly result in fatigue and tiredness among your players; however, it is less of an issue for youth teams, who are more likely to benefit from the additional time spent learning and developing.

====

Extra Session can be remain empty slot, in order to push for Double Intensity while a player have full green heart.

This is my season schedule (gonna test for next season):

This is my pre-season schedule (gonna test in upcoming pre-season):

====

In the videos from Max; the difference between Normal Intensity vs Double Intensity is minimal.

[phnompenhandy]

Zealand recently produced his optimal training programme where he has NO rest slots (other than the 2 on match day).

I've just completed pre-season so I'll try a double General session with a range of third sessions, esp set pieces, extra-curricular (one per week) and the odd shadow play etc. I'll substitute some physical sessions for general ones a couple of times a week too. I've also ensured all players are on automatic intensity - we'll see if the injury rate is reduced.

[fc.cadoni]

Set Pieces is just give me more injuries. Despite having in card saying "team has been benefit from set pieces", there is no more goals from there - normal outcome.

[Daniel Evensen]

I'd trust Max's experiments over Zealand's video editing any day.

@fc.cadoni is right – the descriptions don't really mean anything.  I've never seen much success in training set pieces, other than the assman telling me that we should play for set pieces.

[ImDaWeasel]

3 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

Set Pieces is just give me more injuries. Despite having in card saying "team has been benefit from set pieces", there is no more goals from there - normal outcome.

Hmm I do think the set pieces do have a slight benefit, especially if you have created set pieces yourself. Also penalties is just a must with a cup final 

5 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

From the manual about Extra Session:

Extra Sessions quickly result in fatigue and tiredness among your players; however, it is less of an issue for youth teams, who are more likely to benefit from the additional time spent learning and developing.

====

Extra Session can be remain empty slot, in order to push for Double Intensity while a player have full green heart.

This is my season schedule (gonna test for next season):

This is my pre-season schedule (gonna test in upcoming pre-season):

====

In the videos from Max; the difference between Normal Intensity vs Double Intensity is minimal.

Looks good though I'd be wary of having double match practice in one week. 

Also Max did have double intensity for 4 of the 5 rest options which is a bit much but he did not have any matches to play, just purely training. Mines are usually half then 3 normal then double.

Thirdly, maybe an extra recovery in your schedule wouldn't go amiss. Will help your injury risks immensely.

Edited June 14, 2022 by ImDaWeasel

[fc.cadoni]

26 minutes ago, ImDaWeasel said:

Hmm I do think the set pieces do have a slight benefit, especially if you have created set pieces yourself. Also penalties is just a must with a cup final 

Looks good though I'd be wary of having double match practice in one week. 

Also Max did have double intensity for 4 of the 5 rest options which is a bit much but he did not have any matches to play, just purely training. Mines are usually half then 3 normal then double.

Thirdly, maybe an extra recovery in your schedule wouldn't go amiss. Will help your injury risks immensely.

Went with Normal Intensity instead of Double, like you said because of double match practice. Let's see

[ImDaWeasel]

32 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said:

Went with Normal Intensity instead of Double, like you said because of double match practice. Let's see

I've gone with these schedules now. Played through 4 weeks worth and the progress of the players has went far, far better than any other training schedule I've done before. Only slight issue has been the condition on match days which has been in the 90% range but its manageable. Might look at tweeking if it becomes too much of an issue.

[fc.cadoni]

Looks good to me @ImDaWeasel.

I will wait for more results from Max before I make my final adjustments. So far, Physical-Attacking-Defending-Match Practice seems the best (without games).

[sdx15]

5 hours ago, Daniel Evensen said:

I'd trust Max's experiments over Zealand's video editing any day.

@fc.cadoni is right – the descriptions don't really mean anything.  I've never seen much success in training set pieces, other than the assman telling me that we should play for set pieces.

Not sure about defensive set-pieces, but offensive set-pieces training has constantly produced extra goals for me this year. If you have a tall squad that can outjump their opponents, then set-pieces training will give you more goals and generally more shots from set-pieces in your next 2-3 matches.

[Kevinho7]

Firstly, I haven’t read this complete tread so excuse me if i say something that’s already mentioned…

I actually don’t quite get the way he’s testing the match preparation settings. He uses one slot filled with a match prep session and then looks at the results that came from it. 

The training presets are set up in a way that several slots are used for match prep sessions. Seems to me that’s a very logical setup. 

If i look at it purely simplistic and apply common sense: You aren’t going to win more matches if you only boost your attacking play, or either only boost your defensive positioning. A 90 minute match asks you to be good at defending, attacking and transitioning as a whole. 

So if you ask me, will you win more by using only one slot of attacking movement? No. Will you win more by using only one slot of defensive positioning? No. But wil you win more when using the full range of match prep sessions combined before the next match? Well in my case that’s defenitely a big yes. 
 

Also when it comes to training, why put in training sessions that influence the familiarity bars when they are already maxed out? Seems unlogical to me. When i have my tactical familiarity bars maxed out there is nothing more to gain, so from there on i only focus my training sessions on improving my players attributes with like say technical training or something like that. 

[Daniel Evensen]

@Kevinho7 – I think part of the point behind this video was Max demonstrating that most of those training sessions appear to have no impact at all.  If he is wrong (that is, if those trainings are actually meaningful and impactful), I think it would be pretty easy to demonstrate.  Set up a new league and run experiments, comparing your results with or without these training sessions while keeping all other variables equal.

I've only tried a few weeks of his recommended method (using Match Practice and ignoring the others).  Injuries are down, my squad keeps winning, and I'm not seeing any negative effects.  It's anecdotal data with a small sample size, sure, but I'm not seeing any evidence that he's wrong.

[fc.cadoni]

2 hours ago, Kevinho7 said:

Firstly, I haven’t read this complete tread so excuse me if i say something that’s already mentioned…

I actually don’t quite get the way he’s testing the match preparation settings. He uses one slot filled with a match prep session and then looks at the results that came from it. 

The training presets are set up in a way that several slots are used for match prep sessions. Seems to me that’s a very logical setup. 

If i look at it purely simplistic and apply common sense: You aren’t going to win more matches if you only boost your attacking play, or either only boost your defensive positioning. A 90 minute match asks you to be good at defending, attacking and transitioning as a whole. 

So if you ask me, will you win more by using only one slot of attacking movement? No. Will you win more by using only one slot of defensive positioning? No. But wil you win more when using the full range of match prep sessions combined before the next match? Well in my case that’s defenitely a big yes. 
 

Also when it comes to training, why put in training sessions that influence the familiarity bars when they are already maxed out? Seems unlogical to me. When i have my tactical familiarity bars maxed out there is nothing more to gain, so from there on i only focus my training sessions on improving my players attributes with like say technical training or something like that. 

I can't see the difference between match preparation training schedules in terms of results; from the ones which is only General Attacking/Defending/GK before the match. Testing that over 3 seasons now.

So, what's the point of having match prep schedules in training? Have that schedules gave the chance of winning more matches or it is because of my tactic/morale management (and other factors as well)?

Tactical familiarity can be maxed out in 2-3 friendlies during pre-season; no big deal. 

[themadsheep2001]

On 13/06/2022 at 20:10, JordanMillward_1 said:

Yea, that automatically biases the results of the experiment, because it removes the main benefit of that training option.

Yeah, this seems like quite the flaw in the experiment?

[Junkhead]

My training schedules are solely designed to maximize what I have on a game by game basis, and practice things solely with the next game in mind. The day before a game is always Match Tactics, Match Prep and Teamwork, with Recovery and Match Review the day after. The rest of the sessions in the week are tactic specific, depending on the opposition. So, for example, if I decide to attack my next opponent down the wings, I will train things like direct passing, wing play, chance conversion, etc. If I decide to play a patient passing game, I will adopt sessions to reflect that.

This is because I generally play with low level sides who are expected to do badly and generally end up overachieving - particularly against the better sides in whatever league I am in. I've always assumed that this is down to being more prepared and more cohesive. For me, attributes are less important than performance, particularly when I've got to consistently sell my better players anyway to stay afloat.

If I was playing as a bigger side with better mentals and experiences, I might change my processes. Otherwise, when overachieving, why change? 

[Kevinho7]

17 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

Tactical familiarity can be maxed out in 2-3 friendlies during pre-season; no big deal.

Exactly

[DarJ]

I’m sorry but the more I read these comments, the more I’m convinced people don’t actually know how training is supposed to work.

First of all, if you think there is any training schedule that makes you win more games you’re wrong. There is no where in the game where it says using match preparation increases your chances of winning. If you take attacking movement for example under it says it has an impact on the attacking movement and passing of your team, it doesn’t say you’ll score more goals or win more games.
Training doesn’t directly help you win games, it’s solely to improve the attributes of your players.

Now why would you want to use match preparation schedules in your training? 
You want them (specifically attacking movement, defensive shape and match practice) because I presume everyone have given their players specific roles to train in, and those are the only schedules that target the specific attributes of the roles you have chosen for your players to train in. So let’s say you have your defender training as a BPD, on those days where you have match prep training he’s only going to train in those attributes that are needed to play as a BPD. If you have enough of there every week, you can be more efficient with what attributes you want them to improve.

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by DarJ

[sdx15]

1 hour ago, DarJ said:

If you take attacking movement for example under it says it has an impact on the attacking movement and passing of your team, it doesn’t say you’ll score more goals or win more games.

Did you just seriously say that improved attacking movement and passing do not improve your chances of winning? If the training session is focused on the upcoming match and it impacts your tactical familiarity and certain areas of the game, then that increases your chance to win the next match. The increase should, of course, be slight, but it should be visible on a sample of 200 matches and yet the experiment has shown the opposite. Getting the team extra prepared for the next match maybe decreases your chances of winning, which should not happen when the team isn't fatigued by that training.

[ImDaWeasel]

8 hours ago, sdx15 said:

Did you just seriously say that improved attacking movement and passing do not improve your chances of winning? If the training session is focused on the upcoming match and it impacts your tactical familiarity and certain areas of the game, then that increases your chance to win the next match. The increase should, of course, be slight, but it should be visible on a sample of 200 matches and yet the experiment has shown the opposite. Getting the team extra prepared for the next match maybe decreases your chances of winning, which should not happen when the team isn't fatigued by that training.

Yeah the guy has had a mare there trying to prove some point. 

[DarJ]

9 hours ago, sdx15 said:

Did you just seriously say that improved attacking movement and passing do not improve your chances of winning?

Not necessarily. I agree with you that theoretically, it should improve slightly but in practice, there are a lot of things that have to fall into place for it to work

[Daniel Evensen]

I think I understand what you are saying, @DarJ – but there's still a problem.  Max's study shows quite conclusively that the match preparation trainings offer no significant difference when compared with no training at all.  He goes into some depth to show that this is the case.

I have a very hard time believing that there is some sort of secret combination of trainings that overcome his findings.  After changing my own training approach to match his findings, I've noticed a huge decrease in injuries and a very notable increase in 10.0 training ratings from week to week.  All of my players are set up for individual training as well, none of which invalidates any of his findings or suddenly makes Attacking Movement, Defensive Shape, and the like have any actual positive impact.

It's pretty clear that he is correct about Attacking / Defending / Physical being the most effective general trainings in the game, and that those trainings impact different areas than the game itself states.  Why would we conclude that his findings for match preparation are incorrect?

What you are asking us to do is to ignore the evidence that we have, which comes from a carefully controlled trial study – and believe your intuition instead?  My biggest problem is that I've seen a lot more in-game success following his advice than handling training the traditional way.

Again, it's not hard to set up an experiment to disprove his results.  Evidence is a lot more convincing than your opinion on how training works in game.

[sdx15]

1 hour ago, DarJ said:

Not necessarily. I agree with you that theoretically, it should improve slightly but in practice, there are a lot of things that have to fall into place for it to work

Daniel has already replied to you, but I'd just like to add that, while I agree that FM is a game where a number of things have to fall into place to make a difference, you'd still expect match preparation training to not have a detrimental impact on your next match.

13 minutes ago, Daniel Evensen said:

It's pretty clear that he is correct about Attacking / Defending / Physical being the most effective general trainings in the game, and that those trainings impact different areas than the game itself state

This is interesting. I remember I was once playing around with my save games and I discovered that, when a player is ready to receive a CA improvement, the improvement is randomly assigned to various attributes rather than fixed to the attributes that should've been impacted the most from your training. I'll watch that video later to see what conclusions he's made from his experiments.

Edited June 17, 2022 by sdx15

[ImDaWeasel]

Half a season of changing my training to what I previously posted.

Players developing far better, players far happier, vast majority have 8.0 or above training rating every week.

No drop off in match performances. Changed player roles etc during weeks but players picked familiarity alot quicker.

Only small amount of injuries coming from matches. No injuries in training.

Honestly big game changer. Not looking back at all. Those at SI need to have a look at this properly if they want those defunct training slots back in rotation.

[bluehefner]

On 16/06/2022 at 15:59, Kevinho7 said:

Exactly

That's assuming once you learn a tactic and establish your players roles then they're locked in for the entire season.

But if you have backup tactics you rarely use then during the course of the season don't you need tactical familiarity training in order to keep those tactics from losing familiarity?

[fc.cadoni]

8 hours ago, bluehefner said:

That's assuming once you learn a tactic and establish your players roles then they're locked in for the entire season.

But if you have backup tactics you rarely use then during the course of the season don't you need tactical familiarity training in order to keep those tactics from losing familiarity?

Personally, I don't recommend using back-up tactics, because 1st slot in tactic gain 60% of training, 2nd and 3rd 20%. From the manual:

A maximum of three Tactics can be worked on at any one time; the Primary Trained Tactic benefits from 60% of the contribution towards the team’s Tactical Familiarity, with the other two each gaining 20%. Familiarity rises and falls depending on the team and player instructions set in a tactic and is remembered across all tactics. For example, if a player is tasked with Short Passing in all three tactics, the Familiarity will be higher in that particular regard, which contributes towards the overall score when extrapolated across all players and instructions.

[awboddy1]

While I applaud the effort it’s unfortunate that the person making the video doesn’t really understand experimental design or the mathematics involved.  At the sample size used a single training session would have to have an impact on the win percentage of substantially more than 5% to be noticeable. Other issues include failure to have a proper control … each training has both positive and negative effects and if you worsen the condition and increase fatigue of the trained team you are not measuring only the supposed positive effect.  Setting all player attributes to 15 is unrealistic and will tend to minimize the impact of training.  Finally, increasing the sample size in the one case where there appeared to be an effect is a classic mistake that creates a biased estimate … you never change sample size based on results.

Other more realistic and rigorous experiments have verified that match preparation is effective in increasing team performance.  I would definitely recommend attacking movement and defensive shape be done in the 7 days before every game as these provide the most gains.

[Daniel Evensen]

Hi @awboddy1 – could you link to the "realistic and rigorous experiments" regarding match preparation and team performance that you refer to?  I ask largely out of skepticism, as I've seen a lot of in-game success after following Max's recommendations.

I also wanted to note that Max does examine condition and fatigue.  I do think that you make a good point regarding the impact of setting all player attributes to 15.  However, I would note again that this isn't a particularly difficult experiment, and that it would be helpful to see actual data and results, rather than rhetoric and argumentation. 

The truth is that the vast majority of "studies" I've seen fail to control any of the many variables that impact player performance.  Rather, most tend to take SI's descriptions of training impact at face value and make corresponding rhetorical arguments for the "best" method.  Max is influential precisely because he lets the data speak for itself.  If you can point to anybody with a similar approach with different results, I would be more than interested.

[phnompenhandy]

Have to agree with Daniel here; however, in the absence of rigorous testing, I go with Weasel's response - personal evidence. Like him, I've applied the recommendations, minimising match prep to a single match practice once tactical familiarity has rendered the preview and review sessions unnecessary. I've also applied Zealand's counter-intuitive proposals to eliminate rest periods and focus on General Attacking and Defending units more than any others. The results with my lower league professional outfit have been spectacular. After three seasons, I note that injuries are fairly high in pre-season and around the Xmas/New Year intense period, but can otherwise be covered with an adequately staffed squad. The occasional periods of too many injuries is more than compensated by the progression in development of the squad overall. To reiterate, squeezing out MP sessions seems to have done no harm whatsoever.

[monsalai]

2 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

Have to agree with Daniel here; however, in the absence of rigorous testing, I go with Weasel's response - personal evidence. Like him, I've applied the recommendations, minimising match prep to a single match practice once tactical familiarity has rendered the preview and review sessions unnecessary. I've also applied Zealand's counter-intuitive proposals to eliminate rest periods and focus on General Attacking and Defending units more than any others. The results with my lower league professional outfit have been spectacular. After three seasons, I note that injuries are fairly high in pre-season and around the Xmas/New Year intense period, but can otherwise be covered with an adequately staffed squad. The occasional periods of too many injuries is more than compensated by the progression in development of the squad overall. To reiterate, squeezing out MP sessions seems to have done no harm whatsoever.

@phnompenhandy

Would you be willing to share your schedules?

Edited June 25, 2022 by monsalai

[phnompenhandy]

23 minutes ago, monsalai said:

@phnompenhandy

Would you be willing to share your schedules?

I'm not completely consistent, but it generally goes like 2 General sessions per day, mostly attack and defend with some overall, outfield and goalkeeping thrown in. The third session is one that keeps the overall workload below red, so it might be a set piece or something like that. I'll have one Match Practice the day before a game and a Community Outreach the day after along with recovery. Occasionally, I'll chuck in one rest session if the workload is obscenely high, and other sessions like technical and tactical get a few looks in.

[monsalai]

On 14/06/2022 at 23:04, ImDaWeasel said:

I've gone with these schedules now. Played through 4 weeks worth and the progress of the players has went far, far better than any other training schedule I've done before. Only slight issue has been the condition on match days which has been in the 90% range but its manageable. Might look at tweeking if it becomes too much of an issue.

Thanks @phnompenhandy

@ImDaWeasel How are you getting on with the above schedules?

[phnompenhandy]

I'd be interested in Weasel's feedback too. What the rationale behind extra recovery sessions when no match - does it reduce injuries? And does double-extracurricular in a day boost something?

[Siven]

Very interesting video. Watched a few others too.

Really interested to watch his upcoming videos on the other training sessions too.

I do still like to have def shape and att movement tho, as they train individual roles.

I have tried many training schedules, from BTN, RDF and Zealand. And most always fill every training slot. And as a top premier league team who mostly play 2 games a week, well fatigue is always an issue so nowadays i try to have 2-3 rest sessions along with recovery after matches to help combat fatigue, which alot of other training schedules dont really seem to consider.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Siven

[ImDaWeasel]

On 25/06/2022 at 09:17, monsalai said:

Thanks @phnompenhandy

@ImDaWeasel How are you getting on with the above schedules?

Very successful with slight changes here and there depending on the matches etc. 

Players improving much better, far better training ratings, no complaints, barely any training injuries. The intensity/rest does need lowered from double to normal during the season. 

On 25/06/2022 at 10:11, phnompenhandy said:

I'd be interested in Weasel's feedback too. What the rationale behind extra recovery sessions when no match - does it reduce injuries? And does double-extracurricular in a day boost something?

The recovery for no match weeks is to manage the players injury risk, it doesnt have to specifically be just after a match, and nothing more. It's a spare slot so why not? Also most of my players are away on international duty during this time so only about 8-10 players will be doing this training week.

The double extra-curricular is moral boosting for the squad and for your supports confidence. As I said, you've got spaces so use them for something other than the training sessions that don't work.

Edit - I will add that I remove the match reviews once the tactic is fully familiarised. It is replaced by a rest session as full familiarity with a tactic after tinkering the first few games comes during the double game weeks so to help with fatigue.

Edited June 29, 2022 by ImDaWeasel