Impotent tactic

[eXistenZ]

Ive been dipping in and out of FM21 as I tend to skip every other year, and revisited a career where i just took over Atalanta 5-6y  in.

I remember why i stopped eventually, as despite it being a 4231, which is kinda the meme/easy tactic, it never took off. The only reason im high up in the league is because im spared of european football, failing of other teams and an over reliance on setpieces (even though im not playing for them nor have an exceptional corner/fk taker). 75% of Vlahovic goals are penalties.

 

The defence is solid, but the tactic just fails to create (good) chances. Im mediocre in clear cut chanches created, almost bottom for conversion rate. I notice regulary barely 30% of shots are on target. Possession is easily lost as even with "dribble les" on, players wont pas. A lot of crosses are blocked. the front 4 will often show up ratings of 6.4 or sometimes even lower

Ive been slightly tweaking width and passing/tempo, but seems to really work. what am i missing?

 

 

EDIT: for some reason original post didnt upload the tactic

Edited May 22, 2022 by eXistenZ

[mikcheck]

Maybe you should post your tactic

[eXistenZ]

12 hours ago, mikcheck said:

Maybe you should post your tactic

fixed, dont know why it didnt save my edit

[Johnny Ace]

3 of your 4 forwards are on Attack, start by trying with at most 2, it looks like you're relying on the CF to mostly create 

I can't read the TI's too well because the picture won't zoom in 

[eXistenZ]

1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

3 of your 4 forwards are on Attack, start by trying with at most 2, it looks like you're relying on the CF to mostly create 

I can't read the TI's too well because the picture won't zoom in 

Normally you should be able to zoom in if you open it in a new window. I'll reupload

 

I usually go for an AF in one striker formations, but Vlahovic has several traits that are contrasting to that role.

[Johnny Ace]

You have attacking play Team Instructions, then when you get to the final third, Work Ball into box which will neut your style of play. I'd try removing that, you're basically cutting down the teams long shots and crosses which are both effective ways of scoring goals 

I'd still try and get an extra Support role up front, probably just the IW on the right  

[eXistenZ]

I know were not supposed to listen to the Assman, but WBIB is the only way they might actually hit the goal. As said, the shot percentage that actually hits the goal is terrible low, hence why I put it on.

 

I disagree with crosses being effective, especially in fm21. Only 20% on average finds the target, and headers are always low xg. The amount of crosses ending in a block/corner is astoundinly high

[Johnny Ace]

10 hours ago, eXistenZ said:

I know were not supposed to listen to the Assman, but WBIB is the only way they might actually hit the goal. As said, the shot percentage that actually hits the goal is terrible low, hence why I put it on.

Look at who is taking these shots are try and figure why, WBIB affects the whole team so it sorts one or two issues and creates a whole new one 

 

10 hours ago, eXistenZ said:

I disagree with crosses being effective, especially in fm21. Only 20% on average finds the target, and headers are always low xg. The amount of crosses ending in a block/corner is astoundinly high

There's always the crosses to the far post or centre that find an attackers foot. If you have players that are good in the air or at finding space it's effective. Watch a bunch of goals from random games and see how they're created

Only trying to help 

[Tsuru]

Em 23/05/2022 em 11:04, eXistenZ disse:

I have a theory - supported by many things I read here at the forums - that any problem in FM is mainly related to our role/duty selection. Of course TIs and PIs can be a problem, but they tend to make things better or worse instead of being the main issue.

So starting with roles and duties, I think your team is split into two different groups: you have a defensive line with both fullbacks on support duties and your front line has 3 attacking duties behind a CF-Su. You play on a Positive mentality, so attack duties tend to make the players bomb forward sooner. What I think tends to happen here? Your front players tend to move forward soon and the back line is more conservative, so your fullbacks, CBs and DLP-D have to lump the ball to find the front players, which results in possession losses and maybe counter attacks. 

There are many possibilities here, but maybe I would consider the following:

• Move the DLP-D to the left and change the FB-Su into a WB-Su (or FB-At). This way you would put your defensive pivot (DLP) behind your IF, covering a fullback that moves up the pitch and helps opening space for your IF-At (which will benefit from a bombing fullback to help him finding space).
   
• Move the BBM-Su to the right, change him into a CM-Su, change the WB-Su into a FB-Su and put a support duty on the IW. Why? The BBM moves around but he could occupy the same space of the IW, something that the CM does less. A FB-Su will move up the pitch on a positive mentality but will do that on safer situations, and a IW needs less from a bombing fullback than the IF (because the IW just moves inside with the ball). 
   
• I also think that your out of possession instructions are a little bit too aggressive for a Positive mentality. I would consider dropping them down a bit, but this is something very personal. My preference would be leaving just "Higher Defensive Line" and then adding "Press More" PIs on the front 4. I would also remove Counter-Press and add it just if you really feel it is necessary, because makes the game faster and can overcomplicate things.
   
• Play out of Defence + Work Ball...are more related to a possession system, but you added Higher Tempo on a Positive mentality. I consider Tempo a very sensible instruction and it can lead to lots of balls being lumped forward (something worse due to the role/duty selection), so I would consider removing it. 

These are some ideas and suggestions, maybe test them and tweak a little until you find the right balance.

[wattzy]

The thing I've picked up on is that there doesn't seem to be a consistent message as to what style you want to play. I'm not a tactical whizz, far from it, but it looks to me like you're setting up with a high tempo pressing game off the ball, but on the ball you're a bit all over the place. Your instructions seem to suggest you want to control possession, but the player roles don't. You've got one single player in the midfield with a creative role, your defenders in a pretty flat back 4, and the front 4 all making runs into/around the box. So I think you need to decide what you want here. 

If it's a possession game you want i'd probably change the roles so you've got more players that want and are open to receive the ball. If you want to get the ball to Vlahovic and support around him, i'd remove the possession based team instructions. I think you also need one of your full backs helping out more, either by putting one on attack or making sure they have the trait to get forward. 

[eXistenZ]

3 hours ago, Tsuru said:

I have a theory - supported by many things I read here at the forums - that any problem in FM is mainly related to our role/duty selection. Of course TIs and PIs can be a problem, but they tend to make things better or worse instead of being the main issue.

So starting with roles and duties, I think your team is split into two different groups: you have a defensive line with both fullbacks on support duties and your front line has 3 attacking duties behind a CF-Su. You play on a Positive mentality, so attack duties tend to make the players bomb forward sooner. What I think tends to happen here? Your front players tend to move forward soon and the back line is more conservative, so your fullbacks, CBs and DLP-D have to lump the ball to find the front players, which results in possession losses and maybe counter attacks. 

There are many possibilities here, but maybe I would consider the following:

• Move the DLP-D to the left and change the FB-Su into a WB-Su (or FB-At). This way you would put your defensive pivot (DLP) behind your IF, covering a fullback that moves up the pitch and helps opening space for your IF-At (which will benefit from a bombing fullback to help him finding space).
   
• Move the BBM-Su to the right, change him into a CM-Su, change the WB-Su into a FB-Su and put a support duty on the IW. Why? The BBM moves around but he could occupy the same space of the IW, something that the CM does less. A FB-Su will move up the pitch on a positive mentality but will do that on safer situations, and a IW needs less from a bombing fullback than the IF (because the IW just moves inside with the ball). 
   
• I also think that your out of possession instructions are a little bit too aggressive for a Positive mentality. I would consider dropping them down a bit, but this is something very personal. My preference would be leaving just "Higher Defensive Line" and then adding "Press More" PIs on the front 4. I would also remove Counter-Press and add it just if you really feel it is necessary, because makes the game faster and can overcomplicate things.
   
• Play out of Defence + Work Ball...are more related to a possession system, but you added Higher Tempo on a Positive mentality. I consider Tempo a very sensible instruction and it can lead to lots of balls being lumped forward (something worse due to the role/duty selection), so I would consider removing it. 

These are some ideas and suggestions, maybe test them and tweak a little until you find the right balance.

I find possession being mostly lost by one of the front 4 players not necessarily the midfield/cb's. Ive been tinkering a bit with your comments in mind

As for the fullbacks, I agree that they should be more aggressive to stretch play and offer support. hence is why I put them on support with go further forward PI. The reason it's a FB and not a WB is very simple. FBs allows me to customize the less crossing (crossing isnt effective and my fullback have poor crossing stats)

I kept play out of defence as I dont want the ball to hoofed upfield. Vlahovic is the only player who might win an aerial duel. But I struggle which role to pick for him. As he has the "play with back to goal". Ive opted for Tm out of pure "i have no idea"

[Tsuru]

17 minutos atrás, eXistenZ disse:

 

This version looks better to me. I agree that FBs are better than WBs regarding PI customization and also defending without a DM, that´s why I suggested FB-Su/FB-At on the flanks.

You have an IF-At which is a goalscorer, so I don´t think you need another one in the box. Maybe you can try a DLF-At which will help on buildup and also score some goals. If that is the case I would turn the AP-Su into an AM-Su.

I didn´t suggest you to remove Play out of Defence, I like that instruction. Which I just pointed out is the use of Play out + Work Ball + acceleration instructions (Higher Tempo, Counter) may create a contradiction between more oriented possession PIs and fast tempo PIs. As FM is not clear about the point in which PIs can be combined and the point in which they create a contradiction, it is safer to follow a simpler path.

[Johnny Ace]

18 minutes ago, eXistenZ said:

As he has the "play with back to goal". Ive opted for Tm out of pure "i have no idea"

With how you've set up, I wouldn't use a Target Forward. A DLF or CF on Attack would suit and suit his PPM. With Dembele as an IF(A) a DLF or CF with be dropping deep, running the channels or roaming. You're not a crossing fan when a TF would encourage them and you've gone shorter on the passing with a playmaker 

[Flußkrebs]

Just re the debate about the striker, personally I'd still consider trying an AFa- precisely because Vlahovic has traits that are more suited for a TMa. You'll end up with a hybrid forward who will still most effectively stretch the back line- mildly contrasting player traits and PIs can create some interesting combinations. If penetration is something you're lacking then an AFa might suit. 

Plays with back to goal would suit, in my view, a goalscoring no 10. Whilst the APs seems to be more of a tempo dictating, ball threader, or even pass before the assist type. Does he have an attribute profile that would suit an AMa/SSa (if you did want to play Vlahovic as the back to goal striker?).

[eXistenZ]

DLF was my second option B, guess m in the habbit of picking bad player roles

 

Both my AM's dont have a SS build unfortunately, they are playmakers (high passing, vision, teamwork, not finishing)

[eXistenZ]

On 26/05/2022 at 16:40, Tsuru said:

This version looks better to me. I agree that FBs are better than WBs regarding PI customization and also defending without a DM, that´s why I suggested FB-Su/FB-At on the flanks.

You have an IF-At which is a goalscorer, so I don´t think you need another one in the box. Maybe you can try a DLF-At which will help on buildup and also score some goals. If that is the case I would turn the AP-Su into an AM-Su.

I didn´t suggest you to remove Play out of Defence, I like that instruction. Which I just pointed out is the use of Play out + Work Ball + acceleration instructions (Higher Tempo, Counter) may create a contradiction between more oriented possession PIs and fast tempo PIs. As FM is not clear about the point in which PIs can be combined and the point in which they create a contradiction, it is safer to follow a simpler path.

So I dont want to be rude, and i suppose you prefer honest feedback rather than me lying but i did the changes and... its pretty awful (hope you dont take this personal, i appreciate the explanations so far)

I played the same match 5 times (to filter out variance and im going back to the start of the season anyway at some point). Its a team that according to season preview is slightly worse than me

-Front 4 averaged 6.5, even their substitutes

-shot conversion remains terrible, barely  1/3 hits the goal, considerably less than any AI team i play

- 1 clear cut chance in 5 matches, but didnt stop me from losing 3-0 then. In total condeded 7, only scored 3 (of which one was a corner again)

-tons of blocked shots and crosses. everytime the ball went to the flank it ended in a corner.

-possession given away very often, either by bad passing, running in a cul de sac, or just hoofing it

To illustrate, match 5 of 5

I dot even considered this to be fm'ed. being fm'ed is playing well and losing. Tjis was playing not even averagly and losing. If your front row does **** all, you cant win. This was also the only match i had a better Xg

Edited May 27, 2022 by eXistenZ

[Tsuru]

Em 27/05/2022 em 20:59, eXistenZ disse:

So I dont want to be rude, and i suppose you prefer honest feedback rather than me lying but i did the changes and... its pretty awful (hope you dont take this personal, i appreciate the explanations so far)

Yes I prefer the honest feedbacks. Everything always works in theory, when we move up to the field and play, then things are for real. And sometimes our best ideas simply don´t work.

[sonnevillejr]

Le 26/05/2022 à 16:16, eXistenZ a dit :

 

If you want to play with IWsu and IFat, I suggest you to change the following things :

- WBsu behind the IFat

-WBsu or FBat behind the IWsu

Now that both RB and LB are more attack-minded, you want to have roles in midfield to cover them, and also to create space for your AM (considering you leave him in support duty). 
To achieve that, I suggest you to : 

- Put you midfielder with the defend duty on the same side as the IWsu

- Give your second midfielder a more « cautious » role : DLPsu (holding role), CM with « hold your position », or a covering role like BWMsu or CAR. Just be careful not to have too many playmakers close to each others. 
 

With these changes, your AM (AMsu or APsu) will have more space to operate. Then, I suggest to change your ST into a DLFat (TFs are more suited to direct style). 
 

Finally, I would personally avoid the tighter marking TI in a high block.