"Pass into space" question

[Weston]

Quick question you experts might be able to help me with -

I am predicted to finish dead last in the Bundesliga, thus I am aiming for a counter-attacking style with fast forwards.

However, my CAM is a near-death James Rodriguez with an acceleration/pace of 7/5.

Obviously I want my players to pass into space for the strikers, but they need to pass to feet with James or he will never see the ball all season.

Other than "make a feature request that specifies passing instructions by player/line and not overall," is there anything I can do here to this end?

[CARRERA]

Well, whatever instruction you pick is never a „do only“ or „don’t ever“ choice. It’s always a tendency to do a specific thing more or less. The decision is still made by the player. 

Passes into space are most likely played behind the defensive line rather then in central midfield. If you chose a role for your player that is not meant to run in behind (which is properbly the better choice anyway with such bad physicals), you should not face any problems. 

[Argonaut]

As a side note, it may be worth not turning on "Pass into Space", but give specific instructions for More Risky Passes to your best passer(s). This may be on by default for playmakers and BPDs.

Fewer wasteful balls that way. And ticking on "Counter" will launch counterattacks without needing Pass into Space anyway.

[Weston]

Thanks, this is interesting.

Both James and his backup have good passing/vision stats, so I'll def check on "more risky passes," which, to be honest, I think I just assumed was default to the role. I do have "counter" checked on for the general team.

So now this has me thinking... what's the point of "pass into space," then? Is it just for when everyone on your whole team is super pacy? Or perhaps when the opposition is marking really tightly? Can't see a need for it now if I'm manually setting these other instructions.

[Argonaut]

I can't think of any case where I would personally use Pass into Space. Like you say, it suits a counterattacking style with pacey players up front.

But you'd also want all 11 players to be good passers. Otherwise just designate a couple players with license for risky passes. But if my whole team are good passers, I'm probably playing a possession style and don't want Pass into Space anyway.

I guess you could use it on a rock and roll attacking team with players good at everything. I don't tend to manage top clubs myself though.

[skyline72]

I believe James has good passing and vision?

Why not bring him down to the MC strata or even DM to play as DLP as his physical deteriorates, just like how Pirlo did. So you dont have to worry about him not seeing much of the ball.

Edited April 22, 2022 by skyline72

[Weston]

On 22/04/2022 at 02:01, skyline72 said:

I believe James has good passing and vision?

Why not bring him down to the MC strata or even DM to play as DLP as his physical deteriorates, just like how Pirlo did. So you dont have to worry about him not seeing much of the ball.

I would, and as a Juventino thought of that exact example, but I need every midfielder from CM and deeper to be able to tackle and defend in some capacity, and he would be a huge liability as everyone would simply run right by him as if he weren't even there. Pirlo was able to drop deeper because he played for top clubs that dominated possession, and he often had someone like Vidal or Gattuso to protect him and clean up messes.

[Weston]

On 22/04/2022 at 01:52, Argonaut said:

I can't think of any case where I would personally use Pass into Space. Like you say, it suits a counterattacking style with pacey players up front.

But you'd also want all 11 players to be good passers. Otherwise just designate a couple players with license for risky passes. But if my whole team are good passers, I'm probably playing a possession style and don't want Pass into Space anyway.

I guess you could use it on a rock and roll attacking team with players good at everything. I don't tend to manage top clubs myself though.

I guess I never thought of passing into space as inherently riskier, it's just a different type of pass. Obviously it often does end up being riskier, but I don't think think each of my two strikers need to be visionaries to be told "put it in front of your teammate to run onto" as a general tactic, but if that's how it's set up, then so be it. I guess I'll have to hope they do the right thing aside from James' specific instructions.

[bosque]

On 24/04/2022 at 00:09, Weston said:

I guess I never thought of passing into space as inherently riskier, it's just a different type of pass. Obviously it often does end up being riskier, but I don't think think each of my two strikers need to be visionaries to be told "put it in front of your teammate to run onto" as a general tactic, but if that's how it's set up, then so be it. I guess I'll have to hope they do the right thing aside from James' specific instructions.

Edited.

Edited February 11 by bosque

[Weston]

1 hour ago, bosque said:

Specifically talking about match engine and the tactial creator, "Pass into space" option is like ticking "more risky passes" in all your players. That's what that option do.

Interesting. Makes me wonder why they don't just call it that, then -

Maybe it's just me, but "pass into space" vs "pass to feet" seems so much more about who is receiving the ball than who is passing it.

Fast and/or weak? Kick it into space for them to run onto. Strong and/or slow? Kick it to where they are now.

"Make risky passes" means "make risky passes."

[Aoyao]

Open space

This instruction will make the teammate pass the ball to open space which behind defence line for somebody run toward the ball on higher field.

Edited February 10 by Aoyao

[herne79]

6 hours ago, bosque said:

Specifically talking about match engine and the tactial creator, "Pass into space" option is like ticking "more risky passes" in all your players. That's what that option do.

 

5 hours ago, Weston said:

Interesting. Makes me wonder why they don't just call it that, then -

Maybe it's just me, but "pass into space" vs "pass to feet" seems so much more about who is receiving the ball than who is passing it.

Fast and/or weak? Kick it into space for them to run onto. Strong and/or slow? Kick it to where they are now.

"Make risky passes" means "make risky passes."

It's not the same as ticking more risky passes for all your players.

Pass into space is used during approach play, when players look for runners to pass the ball to / ahead of to run onto.  It's not necessarily a "high risk" pass (although it might be) - it's more directional given a teammate running into/towards open space.

More risky passes are just that - high risk passes in not only approach play but also in the final third where space becomes more limited and good off the ball movement is essential, as is great vision/passing and even flair by the player attempting the pass.  Tick that for all of your players and you'll be asking for trouble.

[Argonaut]

I've also heard in the past that 'Pass Into Space' is just ticking risky passes for all your players. Both of which are just a focus on through balls.

Was that the way it was in past FMs, or just one of those rumours that gets tossed around telephone-style?

I'd still probably prefer to isolate my through balls to come from good passers, but 'Pass Into Space' may be an interesting option if you have a lot of fast players and a big pitch.

[Feddo]

I've played at lowest possible level in my region and I can safely say that I'm not a good passer. I can however hoof the ball pretty well. I was a "always stayes behind" no-nonsense centre back and upfront we had a pacey poacher. Combine that with space in behind the defence and you have a good combination for a lot of counter goals. (I beat him as topscorer though, unfortunately in my own goal 😂😂) 

Now offcourse pro football is on another level with better defenders but it's a simple example of what one can do with the pass into space shout. 

I've used it a lot with my 352 tactic. I was a contender in Europe, not a big club but reaching to the quarter or semifinal. So not a small club and I had a lot of technical good players. I had fast wingers and strikers and 3 ball playing centre backs. My wider centrebacks (fm20 so I didn't use the new role) got a lot of assists this way. I used it combined with play out defence which invited the press and created space. 

[Weston]

1 hour ago, Feddo said:

I've played at lowest possible level in my region and I can safely say that I'm not a good passer. I can however hoof the ball pretty well.

This is a good point as well - passing into space is often a lot easier and less risky than trying to pick out a player and land it directly at their feet, especially when they're being marked tightly and/or under pressure. In fact, putting the ball down field is always less risky than anything else closer to your goal, in general.

2 hours ago, Argonaut said:

I've also heard in the past that 'Pass Into Space' is just ticking risky passes for all your players. Both of which are just a focus on through balls.

Was that the way it was in past FMs, or just one of those rumours that gets tossed around telephone-style?

Is there anyone with any authority on this topic who could clear things up for us?

[Feddo]

Herne just did that

7 hours ago, herne79 said:

 

It's not the same as ticking more risky passes for all your players.

Pass into space is used during approach play, when players look for runners to pass the ball to / ahead of to run onto.  It's not necessarily a "high risk" pass (although it might be) - it's more directional given a teammate running into/towards open space.

 

 

[Weston]

44 minutes ago, Feddo said:

Herne just did that

 

Oh I see, didn't recognize them with the new blank image.

So then, this brings me back to my original question. Now that we know what it means, what do we think?

On 21/04/2022 at 18:29, Weston said:

my CAM is a near-death James Rodriguez with an acceleration/pace of 7/5.

Obviously I want my players to pass into space for the strikers, but they need to pass to feet with James or he will never see the ball all season.

Other than "make a feature request that specifies passing instructions by player/line and not overall," is there anything I can do here to this end?

@herne79

[herne79]

13 minutes ago, Weston said:

Oh I see, didn't recognize them with the new blank image.

So then, this brings me back to my original question. Now that we know what it means, what do we think?

@herne79

1) Using a playmaker role can slow down the pace of your attacks as your players may look to pass the ball through the playmaker rather than a more direct / faster option.

2) James is slow as hell and, unless constantly positioned high up the pitch, won’t always keep up with fast breaks.

Bottom line, there are essentially 2 ways of setting up counter attacking football.

The first utilises the Match Engine itself to generate counter attacks.  In this case, when the ME starts what it defines as a counter attack, it basically ignores all of your tactical instructions and turns your team into a super aggressive, super attacking beast for the duration of the counter attack.  To encourage this ME behaviour you set up with a deep formation using the Counter Mentality with strategically placed fast paced players (such as a winger).  This is designed to encourage the opposition to over commit themselves in attack, before you win the ball back from a deep position and break forward quickly and in numbers.  So any tactical instructions you set are used when you are not counter attacking.  See @Cleon‘s old thread “The Art of Counter Attacking” for more info on that (it’s linked in a sticky somewhere at the top of the forum).

The other method is to set up in a relatively aggressive manner so as to create a kind of pseudo counter attacking strategy (although it’s a fine line between setting up like that and setting up in a direct attacking manner).  In this scenario I’d use an aggressive mentality such as Attacking with a relatively neutral formation (such as a 442) with no additional pressing instructions and using fairly aggressive hard working players, with a bit of pace where needed.  I have a system like that now with just a couple of instructions, neither of which are pass into space (although not to say you can’t use it).  I made a quick post about that recently - Revisiting Old Threads I think it was called.

Anyway, I wouldn’t want James anywhere near either of those strategies .

[Weston]

Thank for this. I usually use James as an attacking midfielder, not an advanced playmaker, and I usually use a 4-4-2 narrow diamond with industrious, hardworking midfielders more focused on winning the ball and laying it off to James or my DLP, paired with really aggressive attacking wingback role FBs to add width.

At the end of the day, we're a ragtag group fighting relegation (I only took over in summer), so we certainly don't have ideal personnel, as you've pointed out. I have a faster backup to James, but James is so good at set pieces, etc., that it's hard to bench him, especially when a lot of my goals come from an absolutely massive CB on corners, which we've come to rely on at times.

[mikcheck]

@herne79would you mind posting that aggressive system you use? Is it a 442? 

In both of those counter attack systems you've explained, would you tick counter option? 

Thanks. 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by mikcheck

[Aoyao]

Pass Into Space asks players to lead their team-mates into open spaces with their passing, rather than delivering it to their feet, in an effort to stretch the play and increase the overall tempo.

[herne79]

4 hours ago, mikcheck said:

@herne79would you mind posting that aggressive system you use? Is it a 442? 

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/564042-revisiting-old-threads/

4 hours ago, mikcheck said:

In both of those counter attack systems you've explained, would you tick counter option? 

For the former I’d say it’s essential, for the latter optional (I didn’t bother in the 442 above).  IIRC that counter option lowers the threshold at which the ME triggers a counter attack, thus aiming to increase the frequency they occur.

[Weston]

3 hours ago, Aoyao said:

Pass Into Space asks players to lead their team-mates into open spaces with their passing, rather than delivering it to their feet, in an effort to stretch the play and increase the overall tempo.

Yeah, so this gets back to my initial problem, which is no differentiation between which lines in the formation or types of roles of players receive such balls, which is problematic. I want the passes into space for my strikers in the final stage of play, I don't want my goalkeeper passing into space for my defenders or my midfielders passing into space for my stationary slow playmaker James. I wish FM would develop this further to be more customizable and useful.

[Argonaut]

1 hour ago, Weston said:

Yeah, so this gets back to my initial problem, which is no differentiation between which lines in the formation or types of roles of players receive such balls, which is problematic. I want the passes into space for my strikers in the final stage of play, I don't want my goalkeeper passing into space for my defenders or my midfielders passing into space for my stationary slow playmaker James. I wish FM would develop this further to be more customizable and useful.

When all else fails you kind of have to watch a match on full/comprehensive/extended to see what's going on. Are your defenders actually getting played into space or does this just happen further up the field?

I agree, I would likely only want the ball into space for dedicated attackers, or perhaps wingbacks. I also wouldn't want it to happen to AMs in a 4-2-3-1, but would want it to happen for AMs in a strikerless system. So some nuance would be nice. Although FM always tries to find the right balance between micromanagement and ease of use.

[herne79]

2 hours ago, Weston said:

I want the passes into space for my strikers in the final stage of play, I don't want my goalkeeper passing into space for my defenders or my midfielders passing into space for my stationary slow playmaker James

Then use the Positive mentality or, if you're feeling confident, the Attacking mentality.  That's literally what they do - build from the back and more direct up front.

And why do you think your goalkeeper is going to pass into space for your defenders when, as mentioned above, that TI is used during approach play?  And also why do you think a midfielder will pass into space for a stationery playmaker?  The TI encourages players to look for runners, not a stationery playmaker who they'll look for regardless of TIs because he's a designated playmaker.

2 hours ago, Weston said:

I wish FM would develop this further to be more customizable and useful.

Stop blaming the game.  FM can indeed improve but that doesn't stop us from doing what we want to (within certain expectations).  Look at the stats below from my recent 2-1 away win at Chelsea (I even had a player sent off at 0-0).  It's not a freak result either - I regularly have results like that against decent opposition.  The tactic used is linked above - I use the Attacking Mentality and 3 TIs (and not pass into space).  I also don't use a playmaker.  The team doesn't always play like that - against lower quality opposition they'll tend to dominate using the same system.  I'm not saying for a moment copy it (because it's built for a certain type of player that I've built things around), I'm just trying to show what's possible.

In fact watch the clip below.  This is right from the first kick off.  Notice how we pass the ball around at the back before getting it forward quickly.  That's a function of the Attacking Mentality as I said above - build from the back and more direct up front.  Sure I also use the more direct passing TI and that will have had an impact, but it didn't stop my defenders passing it between themselves.  ok the move came to nothing but just from that single clip I can tell the team are doing what they're supposed to be doing.

I don't know what system you are using other than a 442 narrow diamond.  However if that were me I'd probably drop the CAM to midfield to create a 4132 and have a runner or two next to him.  I'd prefer that deeper formation to play some counter attacking football rather than the somewhat top heavy diamond.  Get the basics right, then start worrying about fancy shmancy pants stuff like passing into space .

[Weston]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

And why do you think your goalkeeper is going to pass into space for your defenders when, as mentioned above, that TI is used during approach play?

Good point, I missed/forgot that detail.

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

Then use the Positive mentality or, if you're feeling confident, the Attacking mentality.

That's the problem, we very rarely are able to do this as a newly-promoted side.

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

I don't know what system you are using other than a 442 narrow diamond.  However if that were me I'd probably drop the CAM to midfield to create a 4132 and have a runner or two next to him.  I'd prefer that deeper formation to play some counter attacking football rather than the somewhat top heavy diamond.

In games where the opposition doesn't have a CAM positioned player I am now going to try James at DLP over the more physically and defensively capable guy I'd had playing DLP, if only to put another guy I've brought in on loan at CAM who is much younger and faster. I usually put two aggressive and defensively capable midfielders on either side of the diamond, regardless - ideally I prefer B2B or carrilero - but currently I have what are pretty purely BWM brutes. We'll see how it goes.

[Aoyao]

new manual

manual

[Weston]

Hello again - playing with a new team in a new league in a new FM and running into a slightly different version of the same question once again. I made a new post before I realized I had this old one.

Before I was a newly-promoted Bundesliga side playing counterattacking football. Now I'm a newly-promoted side in Finland's top division, but with more parity in the league and some clever transfer dealings, I think I can challenge for the title in my first go and will be playing my same 4-1-2-1-2 with a positive mentality, looking to control possession a reasonable amount.

The reason why my question is different this time? Well now I have a brand new very fast AF, probably one of the fastest players in the league, and a slow but massive TF who broke the goalscoring record last season pinging balls off his head while standing in the box.

So now the fast/short and slow/tall contrast is in the same part of the pitch - the forward line.

Last season, my AF was more average all around, so I instructed my wide players to aim floated crosses at the target man with the default passing instructions for a positive mentality to keep things simple.

But now I want my players to make early, low crosses and quick passes into space ahead of the pacy AF, while still making floated crosses for and passing to the body of the TF.

How do I go about instructing my team accordingly?

I get that the TI is used in approach play, but they'll both be approaching. I can afford to make risky passes because I'm one of the stronger teams in this division, but I don't need to, and even though my passers are better than average vs the competition, they're still not amazing in general, so I don't want to give them specific instructions to go crazy.

Any help is appreciated, especially from @herne79.

Edited February 9 by Weston

[herne79]

12 hours ago, Weston said:

How do I go about instructing my team accordingly?

Do you need to instruct them to do anything?  With your new AF/TM pairing, how are they doing already?

Personally I only ever use instructions to a) create a certain style of play and/or b) to address certain issues I see during matches.  That’s because players are perfectly capable of playing a game of football without my intervention.

So, you want your players to make quick passes ahead of the pacy AF - are they doing that?  If not I’d start by looking at your role and player selections in midfield, particularly the AMC (I’m guessing you use an AMC?). For example, does your AMC have the Trait to play through balls (or whatever it’s called)?  Does the role have the PI to do it?  How about the other midfielders?  Do any of them have the right attributes to live up to their Trait and/or PI to enable them to consistently make such passes?  Do you have a good runner from midfield who’ll be up supporting your attack, perhaps with some technical ability to pick a deadly pass in the final 3rd for your AF?

I’d also look at your new pacy striker.  Is he capable, with low anticipation, of making those darting runs to get on the end of through balls, especially against the elite defenders he’ll be up against?

wrt floated crosses/passes for your TM I don’t see why your wide players wouldn’t still cross to him or why your midfielders wouldn’t still pass to him.  They’ll still be looking for him.  However, if you feel your players are looking for him too much rather than making a quick pass to your AF, you could always experiment with changing the TM’s role.

TL;DR making through balls/passing into space or however we want to term it isn’t just about telling your players to do something via an instruction. It’s a combination of factors stemming from how we set up and the players we use 👍.

[Weston]

4 hours ago, herne79 said:

Do you need to instruct them to do anything?  With your new AF/TM pairing, how are they doing already?

Haven't played a game yet, only just signed the AF. The TM did amazingly with the "aim floated crosses to target man" instructions last season, which is why I'm concerned I'll mess that up trying to accommodate the new guy, but I spent a lot of money on the new guy and he's an outlier that needs to be set up to succeed as much as possible.

4 hours ago, herne79 said:

So, you want your players to make quick passes ahead of the pacy AF - are they doing that?  If not I’d start by looking at your role and player selections in midfield, particularly the AMC (I’m guessing you use an AMC?). For example, does your AMC have the Trait to play through balls (or whatever it’s called)?  Does the role have the PI to do it?  How about the other midfielders?  Do any of them have the right attributes to live up to their Trait and/or PI to enable them to consistently make such passes?  Do you have a good runner from midfield who’ll be up supporting your attack, perhaps with some technical ability to pick a deadly pass in the final 3rd for your AF?

I’d also look at your new pacy striker.  Is he capable, with low anticipation, of making those darting runs to get on the end of through balls, especially against the elite defenders he’ll be up against?

Depending on the personnel there's usually an AM(S)/Eng behind him and two AP(A)/Mez(A/S) behind him, and attacking wingbacks or complete wingbacks out wide. We're not facing elite defenders, we're facing other people with similar mental/technical attributes but far inferior physical ones, for the most part, as far as I can tell before actually playing them.

4 hours ago, herne79 said:

TL;DR making through balls/passing into space or however we want to term it isn’t just about telling your players to do something via an instruction. It’s a combination of factors stemming from how we set up and the players we use 👍.

I think the more I learn about this interplay the more confused I get - ie how I'm gathering that maybe I shouldn't pass into space unless I'm countering, yet it seems that countering already makes people pass into space, so why ever click it at all...