WCB-A not trying to get space

[Andrew Marines]

Hello, i'm currently trying to use  some of the principles of Bayern in a tactic. 

I'd like to let my defenders to get further forward with the ball:

 

Thought i could create this using the role WCB and the player trait "Brings ball out of defence".

 

However that doesn't happen. They just stop, watch and try a long pass even thought we have short passing(no be more expressive, no PI, balanced mentality). I'd like him to get into the blue spaces.

Tips? 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Andrew Marines

[khodder]

What kind of tempo are you using? A higher tempo will lead to these players looking to advance the ball quicker and not hold on in possession as much.

 

Theoretically he should dribble into the space to draw a defender and then pass around him. Maybe look at slowing the tempo a little bit and see if the behaviour changes.

I'd probably also look to avoid the Libero role preferring a gemeric CD on Cover, and maybe go with a WCB on Support instead of attack to see if that helps to lower their get the ball forward fast mentality.

I've managed to get this type of behaviour of of Nathan Ake and Goncalo Inacio in my save  both on standard CD roles, but both with "Brings Ball out of Defence" PPM. Not sure if the PPM is the best way to achieve it or whether it's just very hit or miss depending on the player and their decision making skills.

Edited April 14, 2022 by khodder

[Andrew Marines]

In questo momento, khodder ha scritto:

What kind of tempo are you using? A higher tempo will lead to these players looking to advance the ball quicker and not hold on in possession as much.

Right now it's standard but i've changed it a lot trying to understand how the behaviour changed. I've tried adding Dictates tempo to one of the two WCB but that doesn't lead to anything 

[Andrew Marines]

10 minuti fa, khodder ha scritto:

I'd probably also look to avoid the Libero role preferring a gemeric CD on Cover, and maybe go with a WCB on Support instead of attack to see if that helps to lower their get the ball forward fast mentality.

The libero is the only one that does his job perfectly. I'll try WCB-D and WCB-S but it shouldn't change their behaviour in defense possession.

10 minuti fa, khodder ha scritto:

 

I've managed to get this type of behaviour of of Nathan Ake and Goncalo Inacio in my save  both on standard CD roles, but both with "Brings Ball out of Defence" PPM. Not sure if the PPM is the best way to achieve it or whether it's just very hit or miss depending on the player and their decision making skills.

I'm using a testing DB so all players have the same attributes(all 13) but i've tried with better players without results.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Andrew Marines

[khodder]

1 minute ago, Andrew Marines said:

The libero is the only one that does his job perfectly. I'll try WCB-D and WCB-S but it shouldn't change their behaviour in defense possession.

The individual player mentality will be lowered which will lower their risk taking (long passes) and also their urgency to get the ball forward (long passes)

Otherwise, unsure. Keep trying I guess.

[Rashidi]

If your WCBs are not surging up the pitch its probably due to the roles they have in front of them. So without knowing the rest of the roles i would be guessing

[Andrew Marines]

4 ore fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

If your WCBs are not surging up the pitch its probably due to the roles they have in front of them. So without knowing the rest of the roles i would be guessing

CWB-A so they tend to not help a lot in possession and give the space. Can't  understand then why in the screenshot they're not going up.

[Andrew Marines]

Second thing gonna ask: why are they staying so narrow? i have max width, they should play close to a FB position

[kalongtongan]

9 hours ago, Andrew Marines said:

I'm using a testing DB so all players have the same attributes(all 13) but i've tried with better players without results.

@Andrew Marines Sorry off topic, how big is the file, would you be willing to share with me the file?

[linguistpilot]

On 14/04/2022 at 23:01, Andrew Marines said:

CWB-A so they tend to not help a lot in possession and give the space. Can't  understand then why in the screenshot they're not going up.

 

On 14/04/2022 at 23:37, Andrew Marines said:

Second thing gonna ask: why are they staying so narrow? i have max width, they should play close to a FB position

I am playing around with a WCB setup right now and observed significantly different behavior depending on whether I had players in the "wingback" slot or not. With wingbacks, the WCBs would tend to stay narrow during buildup, often creating issues because they would have few passing options once the wingbacks had pushed forward. So I'd get a lot of sideways possession among the back 3, followed by a long ball forward like what you're seeing. Then I tried moving my wingbacks forward, making them DW-S, which seemed to change the behavior completely, as the WCBs would sit in much wider positions during buildup and also became more willing to carry the ball forward. Without a wingback, they also became much more aggressive in defending wide areas, whereas they would previously retreat into the centre, creating a weakness against wingers. You need to counterbalance with someone in the DM slot though, otherwise it becomes ridiculously open.

[(sic)]

14 hours ago, linguistpilot said:

 

I am playing around with a WCB setup right now and observed significantly different behavior depending on whether I had players in the "wingback" slot or not. With wingbacks, the WCBs would tend to stay narrow during buildup, often creating issues because they would have few passing options once the wingbacks had pushed forward. So I'd get a lot of sideways possession among the back 3, followed by a long ball forward like what you're seeing. Then I tried moving my wingbacks forward, making them DW-S, which seemed to change the behavior completely, as the WCBs would sit in much wider positions during buildup and also became more willing to carry the ball forward. Without a wingback, they also became much more aggressive in defending wide areas, whereas they would previously retreat into the centre, creating a weakness against wingers. You need to counterbalance with someone in the DM slot though, otherwise it becomes ridiculously open.

It's so weird, because using a player in ML/MR positions works so much better than WBs in attack, in back 3 systems (in possession). I just hate how WBs play and position themselves in those formations. They just aren't aggressive enough early on, in terms of their positioning. They position themselves somewhere at/below the half-way line at most, when they should be much higher, especially if on Attack duties. That could be the reason why WCBs don't work the same, as they simply "don't have enough space" (even if they do) to move into. When using a DW or a Winger, they do position themselves higher up and play pretty much how you want them to, but then in the final third they don't really stay wide enough, but instead kinda tuck in. Sometimes you want them to do exactly that, sometimes not.

The main issue with running DWs over WBs is the defense. They simply don't track back enough to form a back 5 like WBs do.

 

I also found some issues with other wide roles. For example, I want to have my IFs narrow / occupy the channel early on in the buildup, while the wingback provides the width. They simply don't do that, but they do move narrower/cut in later on in the attack. The game is very rigid in how roles perform in defensive / middle / offensive thirds, and you can't really customize it that much. I often find players playing how I want them to in mid third, but not in the final third, or playing how I want them to in the buildup and mid third, but not in the final third. I don't think we can customize such behavior in any way sadly. 

[Andrew Marines]

Il 18/4/2022 in 05:52 , linguistpilot ha scritto:

I am playing around with a WCB setup right now and observed significantly different behavior depending on whether I had players in the "wingback" slot or not. With wingbacks, the WCBs would tend to stay narrow during buildup, often creating issues because they would have few passing options once the wingbacks had pushed forward. So I'd get a lot of sideways possession among the back 3, followed by a long ball forward like what you're seeing. Then I tried moving my wingbacks forward, making them DW-S, which seemed to change the behavior completely, as the WCBs would sit in much wider positions during buildup and also became more willing to carry the ball forward. Without a wingback, they also became much more aggressive in defending wide areas, whereas they would previously retreat into the centre, creating a weakness against wingers. You need to counterbalance with someone in the DM slot though, otherwise it becomes ridiculously open.

Thought the WCB would change 3 at the back defenses but honestly it's so difficult to make them work even thought in real life we have examples of this behaviour. For example Inter where both the wingers track back and go up as forwards.

 

14 ore fa, (sic) ha scritto:

The main issue with running DWs over WBs is the defense. They simply don't track back enough to form a back 5 like WBs do.

Same with this. ffs already tried with man marking their winger as a pi using players with high workrate, team work, position, marking, tackling...

14 ore fa, (sic) ha scritto:

It's so weird, because using a player in ML/MR positions works so much better than WBs in attack, in back 3 systems (in possession). I just hate how WBs play and position themselves in those formations. They just aren't aggressive enough early on, in terms of their positioning. They position themselves somewhere at/below the half-way line at most, when they should be much higher, especially if on Attack duties. That could be the reason why WCBs don't work the same, as they simply "don't have enough space" (even if they do) to move into. When using a DW or a Winger, they do position themselves higher up and play pretty much how you want them to, but then in the final third they don't really stay wide enough, but instead kinda tuck in. Sometimes you want them to do exactly that, sometimes not.

On FM20 i used a 1-defender formation and worked better than a 3 at the back. I honestly was concerned.

 

Questioning CWB too. why shouldn't a cwb-a cut inside like a WM-A too. Same spaces, same attributes, same PI. Can understand the fact they wanna give width but those movements are weird and unnecessary

Edited April 19, 2022 by Andrew Marines

[linguistpilot]

18 hours ago, (sic) said:

The main issue with running DWs over WBs is the defense. They simply don't track back enough to form a back 5 like WBs do.

This is true. My solution is a bit of a weird system, with a BPD-D flanked by WCB-S on either side, and then two HB-D ahead of them. In possession, this makes for some nice movement, sometimes a 3-2, sometimes a 2-3, sometimes a 4-1, so relatively easy to play around most high pressing teams. I then have two versions, a more cautious one with wingbacks and a more open one with DW-S, moving between them as appropriate. When we need to press even more, one WCB can also be attacking, then the DW can become an IW and you get some nice overlapping runs from WCBs like Tomiyasu and Tierney (playing as Arsenal). Just had a game where Tomiyasu made a goal by running down the flank and drilling in a cross from the byline.

[prched55]

@Andrew Marines, are you able to post your full tactic? I'm curious because I have a BPD in a 4231 DM Wide with "Brings ball out of defense" and he will sometimes bomb down the flank and get assists from crosses and cutbacks. Basically I see this behavior a lot. I also created a tactic with a WCB and a Winger and a IWB. It created a cool wide overload the really confused the defense. 

[MrGlenn1337]

It seem to me that the ME favours long balls for some reason. Quite frustrating. Makes it real hard to try an replicate how some teams play IRL. 

[Andrew Marines]

23 ore fa, prched55 ha scritto:

are you able to post your full tactic?

not at home rn but now it's like:

 

       F            F           F

WM    CM-s    CM-s    WM

  WCB -A   L-s     WCB-S

             SK-A

Obviously sometimes the WCB actually does that movement but it's not consistent.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Andrew Marines

[prched55]

4 hours ago, Andrew Marines said:

Obviously sometimes the WCB actually does that movement but it's not consistent.

I imagine they'll pick and choose when they think it's best to do it then. You could also maybe move a player into the DM strata for defensive cover. It may increase the runs forward by them. 

[Andrew Marines]

24 minuti fa, prched55 ha scritto:

I imagine they'll pick and choose when they think it's best to do it then. You could also maybe move a player into the DM strata for defensive cover. It may increase the runs forward by them. 

No, even if they have a lot of space free above them, it's a 40/60 they're gonna do that and that doesn't make any sense. I'm using a WCB-A cause i want to take risks even in the build-up phase but they aren't  giving me an actual option to do that

[prched55]

9 minutes ago, Andrew Marines said:

No, even if they have a lot of space free above them, it's a 40/60 they're gonna do that and that doesn't make any sense. I'm using a WCB-A cause i want to take risks even in the build-up phase but they aren't  giving me an actual option to do that

They may just not agree with you on what the best decision is. Maybe you think it's to take that space but they see a long diagonal as being the better option. For example in the screenshot you posted above, #11 of the opponents can easily close down your WCB so there is no reason for him to move forward. It doesn't open anyone up. 

Do they do it more often when you're parked in the opposition's half? That's when I see it a lot. The BPD or the WCB will drive forward when the other is pinned back or they have defensive cover, like a DM there. 

[linguistpilot]

6 hours ago, prched55 said:

Do they do it more often when you're parked in the opposition's half? That's when I see it a lot. The BPD or the WCB will drive forward when the other is pinned back or they have defensive cover, like a DM there. 

I agree with this @Andrew Marines, try to move one or both of your CM-S to the DM zone and see if it helps create what you like. I find that often the WCB-S/A are dangerous when we counter-press, force a long ball and recycle the attack through the DMs - often it's when the WCB's are able to press forward and make an assist/key pass. I have to say though, it seems to depend on individual traits very much: with the same WCB-S role, someone like Ben White or Nicklas Sule will push forward but lay it off short or cross from deep most of the time, whereas more natural FBs like Tierney, Tomiyasu or Tavares will press forward and cross from the byline a bit more often.

[Andrew Marines]

11 ore fa, prched55 ha scritto:

They may just not agree with you on what the best decision is. Maybe you think it's to take that space but they see a long diagonal as being the better option. For example in the screenshot you posted above, #11 of the opponents can easily close down your WCB so there is no reason for him to move forward. It doesn't open anyone up. 

Do they do it more often when you're parked in the opposition's half? That's when I see it a lot. The BPD or the WCB will drive forward when the other is pinned back or they have defensive cover, like a DM there. 

In this situation, he should bomb forward cause i want to trigger the opposite 6 press and not just wait and see if a passing option opens up staying still on the ball. I know here the 7 thinks a pass to the 6 is better but if you think about progression, it's not,Even if they don't have that much space they still need to trigger the opposition press. I understand what you're saying but the game doesn't give me a viable option to get what i want first of all. If he was a wcb-d i can understand and like more that pass, but from a wcb-a, i except risks taken

Edited April 21, 2022 by Andrew Marines

[Andrew Marines]

9 ore fa, prched55 ha scritto:

For example in the screenshot you posted above, #11 of the opponents can easily close down your WCB so there is no reason for him to move forward. It doesn't open anyone up. 

That makes sense and you can even see this at bayern. If you don't trigger him, the passing option higher up on the pitch could not be opened up later. he could defend my 3 with their FB easily

[prched55]

On 21/04/2022 at 01:33, Andrew Marines said:

In this situation, he should bomb forward cause i want to trigger the opposite 6 press and not just wait and see if a passing option opens up staying still on the ball. I know here the 7 thinks a pass to the 6 is better but if you think about progression, it's not,Even if they don't have that much space they still need to trigger the opposition press. I understand what you're saying but the game doesn't give me a viable option to get what i want first of all. If he was a wcb-d i can understand and like more that pass, but from a wcb-a, i except risks taken

I do think the the picture you have here he should dribble forward because all of the passing options are covered. 

Do you just want the player constantly dribbling and pushing forward? Are there enough players in support? Wouldn't that long diagonal be considered risky too?