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Thank you for sharing. Didn't know that thread and it's really insightfull.

Often I visit some old threads for inspiration, and the principles haven't really changed. Since last year I've beem addicted in managing at brazil, being inspired by and old thread of Cleon about a 3-5-2 (I think it was called forged in steel). Such an amazing read and not pinned to the top threads.

There was also some old thread about boca juniores and diamonds (sorry, don't remember the name) that heavily inspired me at attempting to play the 4-4-2 diamond.

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This is excellent. Exactly how I envision my Scunthorpe side to play in the near future.

However, my players are not yet up to that standard and we have a transfer ban. Because of that I have started experimenting with a Looping-esque cautious 442.

In the long run, I want to bring sexy football back to Scunthorpe. After all, that's what the fans want. And what would be better for that purpose than a very fluid Sacchi 442, demonstrated by Özil to the Arsenal.

 

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Excellent thread @herne79

There's gold on these forums, it's just finding it that's the problem, I think the forum's search engine only goes back 3 years

I was trying to find out as much info as I could about the Raumdeuter, I found Google better, searching Football Manager Raumdeuter then selecting search results from SI Games. That brings up loads of classic Football Manager goodness

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One thread I would like to revisit is actually one of yours

Developing my 442

I know it’s still available on the forum 😁 but the pictures are gone, and I’m curious to see what adjustment you can made with the new role (if pertinent) or with your experience with the game 3 years after. 

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13 hours ago, Tibalg said:

One thread I would like to revisit is actually one of yours

Developing my 442

I know it’s still available on the forum 😁 but the pictures are gone, and I’m curious to see what adjustment you can made with the new role (if pertinent) or with your experience with the game 3 years after. 

The pictures are gone but the information is pretty much still all there :thup:.  iirc I ended up with a Trequartista in the AMCR position and a Box to Box Midfielder along side the BWM.

What I'd add is to pay attention to the type of player used in each role.  For example, I used a hard working player as the TQ (think Fernandes at Man Utd) and then added some variety for my wingers - so a flair player for the attacking left winger and a hard worker who can cross like a demon on the right (kind of like Giggs/Beckham or, more modern day, Lemar/Hakimi).  All "elite" players perhaps, but just examples to give an idea.

And for the new role (the attacking central defender or whatever it's called?) I haven't used it so can't really comment but I don't really see the benefit - if it ain't broke don't fix it :p.

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The thread linked in the OP is one of my favourites, you can see my comments there at the time :) 

Also another gigantic gem from the old days is the first Tiki-taka replication which worked so well I completed dafuge's challenge with Dulwich Hamlet using this 433

 

Edited by kingjericho
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@herne79a couple of things to consider from the old post you shared.

  • Do you think that tactics suited to the English leagues are generally better baselined to the higher end mentalities such as positive / attacking i.e. quicker tempo, stamina, less time-wasting and so on?
  • Also in the example that you borrowed.  The roles you picked were fairly simple ones.  In a similar vein to my other point do you think those roles (with less movement, freedom) are more suitable to direct passing, and therefore roles or tactics which rely more on off-the-ball movement, overlapping, roaming, position swapping are better served for more slow-tempo short passing styles?
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20 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

Do you think that tactics suited to the English leagues are generally better baselined to the higher end mentalities such as positive / attacking i.e. quicker tempo, stamina, less time-wasting and so on?

Personally I don't think there's such a thing as a tactic which is more or less suited to a certain league or country.  I've always followed the principle of playing what you want where you want, although the AI might see things differently I guess.  If you're talking specifically about the "traditional" English 442 then yeh I'd use a higher Mentality as a base although as ever Mentality is just one aspect and it would need to be taken into consideration given the players you have available and the roles you consider using.  Trying to play that style starting from the Defensive Mentality for example is something I struggle to get my head around, regardless of players and roles.

20 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

Also in the example that you borrowed.  The roles you picked were fairly simple ones.  In a similar vein to my other point do you think those roles (with less movement, freedom) are more suitable to direct passing, and therefore roles or tactics which rely more on off-the-ball movement, overlapping, roaming, position swapping are better served for more slow-tempo short passing styles?

It depends on the players you have available.  If you have a tactic and roles which, as you mention, rely more on off the ball movement, overlapping, roaming and so on but your players don't really have the attributes for that style then you might struggle.  Likewise if your players aren't physically fit, prepared to work hard and get stuck in then the "attacking" 442 might not be a good idea either.

I guess what I'm saying is that all aspects should combine together to produce the overall effect you want.  I never start building a tactic by thinking (in no particular order) a) what Mentality will I use, then b) what roles will I use, then c) what TIs will I use and then d) what players do I have.  That's treating each area independently in their own separate boxes, rather than associating it all as a combined whole.  I start by thinking what are my players like, then what style of play (if any) do I want, then if I use this Mentality which roles may fit so as not to take too many risks in any given area and then which TIs/PIs will I add (if any) to refine the style of play I want.

For example - if I see my right back has the Trait to get forward often but not much in the way of work rate and I try combining that with an aggressive, high risk Mentality, an attack duty for his role and TIs/PIs to make it even more risky, then I'd better have a plan of how to provide defensive cover for a player which I've essentially just turned into a winger who will constantly get caught up field when we lose possession.  In the example tactic at the top I do have such a player in combination with a high risk Mentality so I tempered the role down.  Likewise I could have gone with a CM(A) or a Mez(A) instead of the Box to Box role in central midfield, but the player I use there has the same get forward Trait, so way too risky (especially given the attacking "flair" winger to his left).  A CM(S) or even Mez(S) would probably be ok too, but my player has silly amounts of work rate, aggression, determination and fitness so he can handle the BBM role in combination with the Mentality and his Trait just fine.

I'm starting to ramble but hopefully you get the picture :thup:.

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21 hours ago, herne79 said:

For example - if I see my right back has the Trait to get forward often but not much in the way of work rate and I try combining that with an aggressive, high risk Mentality, an attack duty for his role and TIs/PIs to make it even more risky, then I'd better have a plan of how to provide defensive cover for a player which I've essentially just turned into a winger who will constantly get caught up field when we lose possession.  In the example tactic at the top I do have such a player in combination with a high risk Mentality so I tempered the role down.  Likewise I could have gone with a CM(A) or a Mez(A) instead of the Box to Box role in central midfield, but the player I use there has the same get forward Trait, so way too risky (especially given the attacking "flair" winger to his left).  A CM(S) or even Mez(S) would probably be ok too, but my player has silly amounts of work rate, aggression, determination and fitness so he can handle the BBM role in combination with the Mentality and his Trait just fine.

In both examples, the players with the PPM "get forward" you have given them support roles.  But isn't that PPM going to get them run from deep often anyway?  What I'm saying is, with either a Sup or Atk duty they are going to get forward a lot.  You could even contend that trait is complimentary to an Atk duty, but if the player isn't suitable then the trait should unlearned rather than adapt a tactic around it.

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1 hour ago, Robson 07 said:

In both examples, the players with the PPM "get forward" you have given them support roles.  But isn't that PPM going to get them run from deep often anyway?  What I'm saying is, with either a Sup or Atk duty they are going to get forward a lot.  You could even contend that trait is complimentary to an Atk duty, but if the player isn't suitable then the trait should unlearned rather than adapt a tactic around it.

Yes, but the point is the combination of factors at play.  You’re right - the sup or atk duties will ask the player to get forward frequently but then combine that with a player who has the Trait as well and he’ll get forward even more often.  So it can indeed be a complimentary trait if that’s how you want your player to behave.  But it can also be seen as a negative as the combination of Mentality / Role / Duty / Trait / TIs / PIs may tell your player to get forward too often to be consistently effective when defending.  YTwo sides of the same coin.

In my experience, it’s this type of high risk combination of factors - which people often don’t realise - is what leads to the “I’ve been FM’d” meme.

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On 30/03/2022 at 10:50, herne79 said:

The pictures are gone but the information is pretty much still all there :thup:.  iirc I ended up with a Trequartista in the AMCR position and a Box to Box Midfielder along side the BWM.

What I'd add is to pay attention to the type of player used in each role.  For example, I used a hard working player as the TQ (think Fernandes at Man Utd) and then added some variety for my wingers - so a flair player for the attacking left winger and a hard worker who can cross like a demon on the right (kind of like Giggs/Beckham or, more modern day, Lemar/Hakimi).  All "elite" players perhaps, but just examples to give an idea.

And for the new role (the attacking central defender or whatever it's called?) I haven't used it so can't really comment but I don't really see the benefit - if it ain't broke don't fix it :p.

Would this be the REBUILDING THE THAMES IRONWORKS stuff you did by any chance? If so, I think I have all the images still on my harddrive. 

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1 hour ago, Cleon said:

Would this be the REBUILDING THE THAMES IRONWORKS stuff you did by any chance? If so, I think I have all the images still on my harddrive. 

Yes mate, it’s the “Developing my 442” thread from FM16 where I used create a club to make the Thames Ironworks.  Good memory :thup:.

If you have a bit of time and can find the pics, ping them over and I’ll update the thread with them.  Don’t spend much time though - it’s not exactly a popular thread any more and all the info is still all there anyway if people read it through.

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On 30/03/2022 at 11:50, herne79 said:

The pictures are gone but the information is pretty much still all there :thup:.  iirc I ended up with a Trequartista in the AMCR position and a Box to Box Midfielder along side the BWM.

What I'd add is to pay attention to the type of player used in each role.  For example, I used a hard working player as the TQ (think Fernandes at Man Utd) and then added some variety for my wingers - so a flair player for the attacking left winger and a hard worker who can cross like a demon on the right (kind of like Giggs/Beckham or, more modern day, Lemar/Hakimi).  All "elite" players perhaps, but just examples to give an idea.

And for the new role (the attacking central defender or whatever it's called?) I haven't used it so can't really comment but I don't really see the benefit - if it ain't broke don't fix it :p.

Can you please elaborate a little bit on the hardworking trequartista for me? I ask because after reading your thread, I tried to use an aggressive, hardworking trequartista on FM 2022. The player I signed to try it was Laszlo Kleinheisler for Watford and I have to say that he really performed in the role, not only aiding the build up and making assists with killer passes but also making runs forward and scoring goals. What I am interested in, in particular, is whether you think that the aggressiveness of the player made him use this role to full capacity, particularly when it comes to utilizing the full freedom of movement that trequartistas can enjoy, however much it is the case that this slightly contradicts the playmaking aspect of the role. Please share your experience and knowledge of the role with me.

Edited by Hog
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26 minutes ago, Hog said:

Can you please elaborate a little bit on the hardworking trequartista for me? I ask because after reading your thread, I tried to use an aggressive, hardworking trequartista on FM 2022. The player I signed to try it was Laszlo Kleinheisler for Watford and I have to say that he really performed in the role, not only aiding the build up and making assists with killer passes but also making runs forward and scoring goals. What I am interested in, in particular, is whether you think that the aggressiveness of the player made him use this role to full capacity, particularly when it comes to utilizing the full freedom of movement that trequartistas can enjoy, however much it is the case that this slightly contradicts the playmaking aspect of the role. Please share your experience and knowledge of the role with me.

The role descriptions in game tend to be based on real life roles.  If you read the role description for the Trequartista (to continue your question) it is based on a real life TQ such as Totti - somebody who is a genius flair player but not much use defensively.  But it’s important to understand that in game, different players will play the same role in different ways.  So if we use a player with lots of flair but little in the way of work rate, we end up with the “realistic” Trequartista.  But putting in a hard working player instead gives us a much different beast.

In terms of Aggression, personally I always view that particular attribute as kind of a natural press.  Thus even though the role description and player instructions built in would  have us believe a TQ won’t do much (if any) closing down, lots of Aggression in the player will help him do just that.  It should also help him to ”aggressively” move into dangerous positions to help himself and team mates, especially in the final third (as you have found).  For his movement that you mention, yes the TQ role encourages roaming, but the player will still need decent off the ball attribute.  It’s this sort of combination that often gets over looked but can be crucial - roles tell players what they should do, but the player’s own abilities determine how well or in what manner they perform the role.  Two sides of the same coin.

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On 06/04/2022 at 22:12, herne79 said:

The role descriptions in game tend to be based on real life roles.  If you read the role description for the Trequartista (to continue your question) it is based on a real life TQ such as Totti - somebody who is a genius flair player but not much use defensively.  But it’s important to understand that in game, different players will play the same role in different ways.  So if we use a player with lots of flair but little in the way of work rate, we end up with the “realistic” Trequartista.  But putting in a hard working player instead gives us a much different beast.

In terms of Aggression, personally I always view that particular attribute as kind of a natural press.  Thus even though the role description and player instructions built in would  have us believe a TQ won’t do much (if any) closing down, lots of Aggression in the player will help him do just that.  It should also help him to ”aggressively” move into dangerous positions to help himself and team mates, especially in the final third (as you have found).  For his movement that you mention, yes the TQ role encourages roaming, but the player will still need decent off the ball attribute.  It’s this sort of combination that often gets over looked but can be crucial - roles tell players what they should do, but the player’s own abilities determine how well or in what manner they perform the role.  Two sides of the same coin.

Thank you very much for responding. Aggression therefore seems like a very underrated attribute for attackers to have. I presume that the same thing would happen with other roles if we add roaming to a highly aggressive player (more aggression = more initiative in movement) but I still have to test that out.

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17 minutes ago, Hog said:

Thank you very much for responding. Aggression therefore seems like a very underrated attribute for attackers to have. I presume that the same thing would happen with other roles if we add roaming to a highly aggressive player (more aggression = more initiative in movement) but I still have to test that out.

Yes but if you have too much roaming you'll start to drag players constantly out of position.  Target roaming is fine, everyone doing it can lead to issues.

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  • 3 weeks later...

@herne79 I wonder if you also pay attention to bravery? I guess not so much, because it's really hard to find players with both aggression and bravery ( even harder when newgens start to come into the game, especially attacking players) and you prefer aggression over it?

Edited by mikcheck
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40 minutes ago, mikcheck said:

@herne79 I wonder if you also pay attention to bravery? I guess not so much, because it's really hard to find players with both aggression and bravery ( even harder when newgens start to come into the game, especially attacking players) and you prefer aggression over it?

Bravery isn't something I focus on but always nice to have.

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Posted (edited)
Em 27/04/2022 em 11:38, herne79 disse:

Bravery isn't something I focus on but always nice to have.

But aren't they similar tho?

It is referred that aggression is the willingness of a player to get stuck in. Bravery is how committed a player is, often putting themselves into risky situations.

Edited by mikcheck
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1 hour ago, mikcheck said:

But aren't they similar tho?

It is referred that aggression is the willingness of a player to get stuck in. Bravery is how committed a player is, often putting themselves into risky situations.

There's lots of similar attributes but at some point you have to draw the line otherwise you end up looking at everything.  I don't ignore anything, I just prioritise.  Ohers will prioritise differently, three's no right or wrong.  Likewise I'd prioritise attributes differently for different styles of play.

I get your point about newgens coming into the game with lower attributes than I might like here.  So compromise can work - perhaps a player with lower aggression than I may like but very high work rate/determination (or bravery) may help plug a gap.  The same goes for starting database players.

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Regarding old threads, there's one that I don't think I can find now, but it's the Lines and Diamonds thread and I still have a link for the PDF saved. It gave me a fantastic, comprehensive tactical background long before I began my journey into coaching, and now, almost five years in, I can appreciate it even more as it's the kind of knowledge that they don't really provide in my country. Here's the link for anyone interested: https://www.dropbox.com/s/e3sxoyjl47658av/lines-and-diamonds.pdf

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Posted (edited)
hace 1 hora, Rikulec dijo:

Regarding old threads, there's one that I don't think I can find now, but it's the Lines and Diamonds thread and I still have a link for the PDF saved. It gave me a fantastic, comprehensive tactical background long before I began my journey into coaching, and now, almost five years in, I can appreciate it even more as it's the kind of knowledge that they don't really provide in my country. Here's the link for anyone interested: https://www.dropbox.com/s/e3sxoyjl47658av/lines-and-diamonds.pdf

That guide/book is unbelievable. I want to print it and re-read it again because it has a lot of tactical knowledge.

Edited by bosque
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Posted (edited)

@herne79

How important do you consider antecipation is for you, mainly your AF and the WM who cuts inside?

I'd also be interested in how do you approach training, do you handle it to your assman? 

Thanks

Edited by mikcheck
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2 hours ago, mikcheck said:

@herne79

How important do you consider antecipation is for you, mainly your AF and the WM who cuts inside?

I'd also be interested in how do you approach training, do you handle it to your assman? 

Thanks

For me, Anticipation is one of the key attributes I look for in my forwards.

For training, I leave General Training to my assistant and handle individual training myself.

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  • 5 weeks later...
hace 2 horas, axelmuller dijo:

Generic Football is often overlooked but it produces some decent results on the pitch. Excellent thread for Lower League enthusiasts in particular.

This comment arrives just in time as I was reading "Lines & Diamonds" by THOG. An incredible guide and as I see that thread combines the principles of THOG's guide. Thanks!

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  • 2 weeks later...

@herne79do you keep playing with that system with West Ham? Since you play with attacking mentality and you only have a 2 man midfield, do you sometimes play narrower or do you keep it like that as it create more space for your players to move and pass the ball?

Another question if you dont mind is if you change anything as you build  your team with better players?

Edited by mikcheck
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1 hour ago, mikcheck said:

@herne79do you keep playing with that system with West Ham? Since you play with attacking mentality and you only have a 2 man midfield, do you sometimes play narrower or do you keep it like that as it create more space for your players to move and pass the ball?

Another question if you dont mind is if you change anything as you build  your team with better players?

I don’t play narrower.  The attacking mentality plays pretty wide anyway which opens space naturally which the fast direct passing takes advantage of.

The only adjustments I may make as I get better players is how the fullback roles/duties combine with the player Traits and attributes, and occasionally I may switch the CF(s) to a DLF(s) to give some variety.  So I may switch the fullbacks to a defend duty for example if I feel they are getting forward too often (their Trait) or getting back to defend effectively enough (perhaps due lack of work rate/stamina).  Their main job in this system to defend and provide support, not overlaps.

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These three gems spring to mind:

 

 

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/520253-how-to-create-complex-attacking-patterns-to-break-down-defensive-teams/

 

And this beauty of a 442 thread: 

 

Respect to all you guys sharing your stuff here, can't tell how many hours I've spent perusing the depths of this forum... It's a lot.....

Øzil, Cleon, Wvfan, Rashidi, herne and all you guys, absolute FM legends the lot of yous :applause:(Sorry for bastardizing your usernames, but got to keep you humble and posting ;))

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  • 2 weeks later...
Em 12/06/2022 em 14:12, herne79 disse:

I don’t play narrower.  The attacking mentality plays pretty wide anyway which opens space naturally which the fast direct passing takes advantage of.

The only adjustments I may make as I get better players is how the fullback roles/duties combine with the player Traits and attributes, and occasionally I may switch the CF(s) to a DLF(s) to give some variety.  So I may switch the fullbacks to a defend duty for example if I feel they are getting forward too often (their Trait) or getting back to defend effectively enough (perhaps due lack of work rate/stamina).  Their main job in this system to defend and provide support, not overlaps.

Hi herne,

Since you've mentioned that getting forward trait, I'd like to know your opinion on something pls

 

gggg.jpg.e3c861aab287cae03b63a41cad174583.jpg

 

Unfortunately for me, both of the players inside the red circle learned that trait out of nowhere and I really doubt they'll unlearn it now. What would you do? Would you change their duties (I really didn't want to change the WM duty to defend, I think it would make him too cautious in a balanced mentality) or would you add hold position PI on both for example?

Thanks!

Edited by mikcheck
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46 minutes ago, mikcheck said:

Unfortunately for me, both of the players inside the red circle learned that trait out of nowhere and I really doubt they'll unlearn it now. What would you do? Would you change their duties (I really didn't want to change the WM duty to defend, I think it would make him too cautious in a balanced mentality) or would you add hold position PI on both for example?

I wouldn’t do anything until I knew what was happening on the pitch.  If things are going well don’t change things.  If not, experiment with a subtle change to role, duty and/or PI.

btw players learning traits out of nowhere always sucks and something I wish SI would bin.

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Em 28/06/2022 em 18:28, herne79 disse:

I wouldn’t do anything until I knew what was happening on the pitch.  If things are going well don’t change things.  If not, experiment with a subtle change to role, duty and/or PI.

btw players learning traits out of nowhere always sucks and something I wish SI would bin.

Thanks.

Yes it really sucks. I'm still playing FM21, but so far from my experience, it's almost impossible to make players unlearn those unwanted traits.

Now I have a WM on support with an unwanted get forward trait next to a SV on attack with  gets into opposition area (this one I made him to learn)  and that sucks and will certainly unbalance my team in certain situations.

Edited by mikcheck
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