FM21 Both strikers do terrible

[eXistenZ]

Currently in my 5th season and the first one I switched from a 433 (2DM) to  a 433 DM. I dont know what it is, but strikers have consistently low ratings and are uninvolved with the game. If they score its usualy a late pointless goal while being the whole match on 6.5. But recently it got worse with not even that happening.  Ive tried out several roles, from DLF(a) to PF and CF , but even the standard AF with "shoot more" PI on does absolutly nothing. . All the shooting is done by my midfielders/wingers or defenders with headers. As you can see, they have fairly good finishing stats, so them not shooting at all, makes even less sense. Even more painfull is that this is happening in the league, against poorer teams most of the time.

 

Fined and criticised their form and last games multiple times but it doesnt change anything. Below screens from the last 3 games. We were in control the whole time but our inability to get the ball to our best finishers is costing us (like in the last game, which ended 1-1. We scored 4 times against bottom of the table, yet 2 were setpieces and one owngoal...

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by eXistenZ

[De Nile]

well your 433 works if your in 5th so I wonder who is supposed to aid the striker in getting the goals. You have no playmakers and majority of your team is going out wide not to mention that you also ask them to dribble less and pass shorter, so what could happen is either the play will funnel outside and a lower quality ball will come from out wide to striker which would be easy to defend or the ball is quickly given to the forward and there are few players centrally to help. Your analysis map on the 433 shows that zone 14 is weakest so at times your striker at times could be double marked.

If teams are poorer than you then they can just play a low block allow the play down the flanks and defend the middle; also some of these matches seem like only one person is making the play the MoM seems to be making all of key passes for the team which is something I would look out for since the player can be restricted of options or man marked. One of your strikers are inconsistent so watch out for that, recently there was a BTN video about inconsistency. I guess that it when I look at your tactic but you seem to be doing well in your league, it would be good to see how the matches played out and the opposition formations you said it was just poorer sides. 

[eXistenZ]

49 minutes ago, De Nile said:

well your 433 works if your in 5th so I wonder who is supposed to aid the striker in getting the goals. You have no playmakers and majority of your team is going out wide not to mention that you also ask them to dribble less and pass shorter, so what could happen is either the play will funnel outside and a lower quality ball will come from out wide to striker which would be easy to defend or the ball is quickly given to the forward and there are few players centrally to help. Your analysis map on the 433 shows that zone 14 is weakest so at times your striker at times could be double marked.

If teams are poorer than you then they can just play a low block allow the play down the flanks and defend the middle; also some of these matches seem like only one person is making the play the MoM seems to be making all of key passes for the team which is something I would look out for since the player can be restricted of options or man marked. One of your strikers are inconsistent so watch out for that, recently there was a BTN video about inconsistency. I guess that it when I look at your tactic but you seem to be doing well in your league, it would be good to see how the matches played out and the opposition formations you said it was just poorer sides. 

I dont quite follow. Surely the mezalla counts as a type of playmaker, and both the Winger and inverted winger mains job is to provide passes rather than going it alone? I originally used an AP instead of a mez, but it didnt work. As you can see from the screens the strikers are both not involved in passing, nor do they shoot much (despite their PI). No matter which role I stick on them. Also trie for them to roam more (as they have decent off the ballà in order to shake marking, also no effect

And playing more narrow should somewhat prevent the play to go to the wings too much?

 

Which midfield roles do you opt for then?

Edited February 27, 2022 by eXistenZ

[De Nile]

12 hours ago, eXistenZ said:

Surely the mezalla counts as a type of playmaker, and both the Winger and inverted winger mains job is to provide passes rather than going it alone?

Not really if you look at your whole right side of your tactic everyone moves wide and I think the right flank (i.e. W + WB) is already aggressive so to add a mezzala seems weird and makes an unnecessary overload if you had a goalscorer on the left wing then the overload would make sense since you draw in the opposition then play a diagonal ball into the spare man.

12 hours ago, eXistenZ said:

And playing more narrow should somewhat prevent the play to go to the wings too much?

Wingers are asked to dribble more so they can be isolated out wide or forced to play a pass backwards. If you play narrow then you have an option to make the pitch big while controlling the play in the centre.

12 hours ago, eXistenZ said:

Which midfield roles do you opt for then?

I would at least play a DLP in the DMC position. Also you need someone to support your striker because winger isn't going to, the mezzala will drift into the halfspaces, the BBM would move everywhere, the inverted winger would cut inside to build up play so it's not going to be in box with AF all the time.

 So either you play IF/ IW on attack on the right, AP on either the left wing or left central midfield. Fullback and wingback should swap.

But this is something for you to think about and this is just a suggestion.

[eXistenZ]

Surely this is too much if an overhaul?

Ive tried Rovella as AP before, doesnt work. Mez is where he gets his best results.

My RW is the best player/performer, so changing his role seems counterproductive. Not to mention that his footedness means he wont be able to play inside winger/forward. Likewise, my rb is good offensivly, so letting him go forward less means less threats?

 

I also dont see how this is supposed to help the striker, as he will still not get involved. The reason ive stuck with an IW is because IF in my view always just do terrible (see this thread : https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/562209-i-solved-the-4231-ifiw-problem-my-insane-tactic/

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by eXistenZ

[De Nile]

4 hours ago, eXistenZ said:

Surely this is too much if an overhaul?

Ive tried Rovella as AP before, doesnt work. Mez is where he gets his best results.

My RW is the best player/performer, so changing his role seems counterproductive. Not to mention that his footedness means he wont be able to play inside winger/forward. Likewise, my rb is good offensivly, so letting him go forward less means less threats?

 

I also dont see how this is supposed to help the striker, as he will still not get involved. The reason ive stuck with an IW is because IF in my view always just do terrible (see this thread : https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/562209-i-solved-the-4231-ifiw-problem-my-insane-tactic/

 

Yeah I can't really say much since your tactic is doing well you are 5th so i put down what i thought is lacking for that tactic the 433. Note I said left sided midfielder so the bbm for the ap or left wing  IW for AP. 

[eXistenZ]

12 hours ago, De Nile said:

Yeah I can't really say much since your tactic is doing well you are 5th so i put down what i thought is lacking for that tactic the 433. Note I said left sided midfielder so the bbm for the ap or left wing  IW for AP. 

The tactic isnt really doing that well. I just have a combination of a good goalie (highest in save percentage), combined with double the amount of setpiece goals (corners+ indirect free kicks) compared to nr2, despite none of my players having exceptional setpiece ability. Various teams also do poorly. Bordeaux was 5minutes away form relegation last season, marseille has sacked his 3rd coach in 2years.  I actually dont really care what league position i'm in. I rather draw 2-2 with good football than win 0-1 with a corner. Bad matches lead to bad ratings, which lead to development stalling, which is a much bigger problem.

My previous tactic (with 2 DMs) actually did well, but in this transitional fase the club is in I want to go to a more aggressive version (hence the switch to the 433 with one DM), as I found that towards the end of previous season we had problems breaking down smaller opposition.  The makeup was very similar (it was a DM paired with a SV), combined with better players that were brought in hence me being baffled I am getting such poor performances

[HUMBL3B33]

Take a look at the shots your forwards had in comparison to the shots your CB and mezzala's are taking. Single shots in the whole match, how are you expecting them to score 100% of the time.

I see your major chances are being created by either your mezzala or the RWB. I am assuming this, but you can check this to be sure about this, most of the chances your strikers are receiving are majorly heading opportunities. As your winger on right is trying to attack the byline, and WB because of the short passing TI he decides not to do anything special with the ball and passes the ball to either RWB or Mezzala which then crosses the ball into the box. Ideally, if you have a couple of decent aerial threatening players waiting for those crosses in the ball it would make it easier for them to get a shot off or even score as they will win the ball in the air more often and score eventually.

Now take a look at both your strikers their jumping reach is at max 7. That wouldn't even make it in my team if that is how i want to play. As a result you now see why they aren't scoring, you are asking them to head the ball off the crosses where as that is clearly their weakest ability.

Now, how can you fix it. It's simple in our case. Since, both of the forwards are extremely good at running with the ball and running in general. You can simply drop the LOE lower and create much more space for them to run in and then ask your most creative player to play more direct and take more risks and asking the strikers to run for it. What this would do is create a lot of space for them to run behind and do what they are good at which is run with the ball. You will see an immediate increase in their shots and eventually they will start scoring.

Keep in mind, this would allow a lot of teams to come at you more often than not because your LOE is lower than you normally use, hence increase threat of a deadly ball. You need to adjust the rest of the tactic based on the response you get. Maybe ask the WB to become FB and more defensive or maybe ask the midfielders to stay in the midfield instead of the mezzala as he would stay up top in that position and with a lot of ball going from top you are bound to lose the possession of the ball. As a result, even if you get a lot of runs coming at you, your midfield should be good enough to syphon them off and then give a line breaking ball to your forwards to run off.

Hope this would help you. Have a great day my friend.

[eXistenZ]

Oh it doesnt show, but Low Crossess hould be on (and was on most of the time), dont know why it isnt in the screenshot. None of my front players are aerial threats I know that. Thats in the back (hence a significant amount of setpiece goals)

But as you can see from the stats, they are just not involved, as they have a very low amount of both shots and headers.

So you wouldnt change any midfield roles?

 

[prched55]

Can you show the passes received against those teams? It seems they do well in the Champions League so I'm wondering if weaker teams are just packing the middle against you. My advice would be to lower the tempo and go a little wider when playing in Ligue 1. Your wide players are probably not waiting for the play to develop in front of them and since the strikers are moving into channels to help with build up, they don't have enough time to get into the box for scoring positions before someone makes the decisive pass. You could also change the role to Poacher so they stay in the box instead of moving out wide. 

[HUMBL3B33]

56 minutes ago, eXistenZ said:

Oh it doesnt show, but Low Crossess hould be on (and was on most of the time), dont know why it isnt in the screenshot. None of my front players are aerial threats I know that. Thats in the back (hence a significant amount of setpiece goals)

But as you can see from the stats, they are just not involved, as they have a very low amount of both shots and headers.

So you wouldnt change any midfield roles?

 

For that you need to understand that most of the time you would have a lot of defenders who aren't the best physically but are decent in positioning and marking wise. Also if you take a look at your strikers, both Perez Tica and Pelissard lack the strength necessary to fend of the defenders neither do they have the best of balance to stay on feet.

Also asking for low crosses doesn't really mean you will get them all the time. It also depends on the teammate, crossing and decisions attributes of the player attempting those crosses as if these players aren't decent at even one of those, they wouldn't keep doing the task you asked them to do. From which, our initial problem occurs.

If you take a look at the screenshot below, you can see pedro neto is a great player in his own right, But if you take a look at his shooting opportunity he has been passive and wasteful because i use his dribbling ability to drive the opposition defenders out of position. As a result you can see that he does extremely well with the ball moving the players around with almost 4 successful dribbles per 90 and generates a lot of fouls in and around the box.

This is how you know he is doing what you want him to do. Take a look at the stats for the players involved in the transition, Is the WB dropping the crosses? Are the strikers getting the chances? If he is, are they headers? All this could be compiled and i am pretty sure they are definitely not getting a lot of quality chances. Because the tactic isn't playing to their strengths and assuming a TI could cover up their attribute gaps and they would suddenly start playing good isn't possible. You also need to understand that it isn't just about the players in question, it is also about the players they go up against. If the defenders are good at marking and positioning, half of the balls you are trying to provide to the strikers wont even reach them because of the defenders. 

Hence, i suggest you take a look at the player stats and share. Maybe we can make something out of it. Ideally, Their shooting stats, heading stats, dribbling stats would do just fine for now.

 

[HUMBL3B33]

1 hour ago, eXistenZ said:

So you wouldnt change any midfield roles?

 

Fixing the midfield is definitely a key point and would definitely help but even then you would have the same issue with your strikers. They aren't playing how they should be to succeed. I would definitely keep the midfielders deep and allow the strikers to make runs with and without the ball and ask the other creative players to find them. That is how you'll see these two strikers can bag a lot of goals. Because, they definitely have some talent.

[CaptCanuck]

@HUMBL3B33 - the OP is on FM21, the stats and data analytics are horribly broken on it. All that FM22 would be helpful indeed, but not in this instance unfortunately.

[HUMBL3B33]

44 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

@HUMBL3B33 - the OP is on FM21, the stats and data analytics are horribly broken on it. All that FM22 would be helpful indeed, but not in this instance unfortunately.

My bad, didn't notice he was on 2021. I think it still holds true and you can still check the amount of shots they are taking and judge them from that. I don't see them taking a lot of quality shots and hence they are unable to score. The "Why" can only be explained after taking a look at the stats.

@CaptCanuck thanks for the correction.

[CaptCanuck]

22 minutes ago, HUMBL3B33 said:

My bad, didn't notice he was on 2021. I think it still holds true and you can still check the amount of shots they are taking and judge them from that. I don't see them taking a lot of quality shots and hence they are unable to score. The "Why" can only be explained after taking a look at the stats.

@CaptCanuck thanks for the correction.

Yup agree :-)

[eXistenZ]

So there was a bit of a hiatus, my apologies, but I dediced to run out the season before posting again. Dropping the lines definitly worked and did get my strikers scoring again.  No huge numbers, but a more easier shedule, an unexpected win against PSG and other topteams mainly deriving eachother of points, I managed to squeeze out a 2nd place. The football and chances created were also  lot better

So for next season I'm aiming for something like this to employ,

Any glaring problems? These are the players who'd fill the main positions.

LB - Been very decent overall

Spoiler

RB - best player of last season, got a lost of assists

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DM/DLP - Rovella's number are a bit inflated as he takes corners and penalties

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BBM- Francho is a bit overpaid, I know

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LW/IF - has grown a lot towards the end

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RW - planning on buying him for around8M

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Unfortunately my purcahse of last year, Tica, apparently dreads big matches, but there is interest in him, so Ithink of replacing him with this guy

Spoiler

 

[DarJ]

I play with a tactic similar to yours only I have a PF, RPM instead of the B2B and the WB is on the left and the FB in the right and it's great but I've got one of the best team in the league if not the best. I lost only the first game of the season and didn't lose again in the league

[CaptCanuck]

For an AF I like to teach them first time shots and beat offside trap, if they don't already have them and will also add shoot more often PI.

Just a couple things to think about to get your guy scoring more, beyond tactical changes... and of course whether they are any good.

[llado01]

your problem it's your striker is very isolated and takes pointless shots , try change the if(a) to iw (a) , because the if is another goal threat  , the striker needs who someone supply the ball in dangerous areas , and try to change the bbm at who that recycle the ball like dlp (s) or mc (s) ,because your other mc is a runner you need someone to take and pass the ball (in this moment youre 0 players to doing this) ,to add more defend protect change the dlp(d) to mc(d) , this changes wil add more midfield move , and push one of the fb at attack dutty ; all of this changes help at your striker to isolated troubles and help to take good decisions.

 

test and share your experience.

Edited March 3, 2022 by llado01

[eXistenZ]

On 03/03/2022 at 10:25, llado01 said:

your problem it's your striker is very isolated and takes pointless shots , try change the if(a) to iw (a) , because the if is another goal threat  , the striker needs who someone supply the ball in dangerous areas , and try to change the bbm at who that recycle the ball like dlp (s) or mc (s) ,because your other mc is a runner you need someone to take and pass the ball (in this moment youre 0 players to doing this) ,to add more defend protect change the dlp(d) to mc(d) , this changes wil add more midfield move , and push one of the fb at attack dutty ; all of this changes help at your striker to isolated troubles and help to take good decisions.

 

test and share your experience.

Its not that they were taking pointless shots, it was that they werent shooting at all.

I'm in preseason so i havent had a chance to test the new tactic yet

On 02/03/2022 at 20:30, CaptCanuck said:

For an AF I like to teach them first time shots and beat offside trap, if they don't already have them and will also add shoot more often PI.

Just a couple things to think about to get your guy scoring more, beyond tactical changes... and of course whether they are any good.

Im not a fan of beats offside trap, ive had bad experiences with it. And he had already the shoot more PI