Struggling to get front 3 scoring

[luckydutch]

I'm playing a season as Liverpool, trying to replicate Klopp's tactics. Whilst I'm doing quite well in the league, my forwards are generally having quite a poor season and I'm being absolutely carried by my defense. Not just in keeping clean sheets but in scoring! When you remove Salah's goals through penalties, both he and Mane have less goals than Van Dijk!

I don't want to disrupt what is working about my tactic which is the marauding wing-backs, but I would like to try to bring my forwards into the game more. I'm bringing Mbappe in on a free at the start of next season (probably selling Firmino for profit to pay Mbappe's wages) and Mane/Salah both want 300k+ pw in their contract renewals. I really need to get the forwards producing to justify them eating up the vast majority of my wage budget!

Below is is my tactic:. I have tried this with both Inverted wingers and Inside Forwards. It doesn't seem to make much of a difference to their output. Whoever plays up front in the AF role will often have a terrible game and get subbed-off. Be that Fimino, Jota, Origi or Adeyemi. 

 

Below is my squad's performance. You can see the disparity between the defenders and forwards. Jota is having the worst time.

 

Here is the advice from my data hub. It seems like we struggle to get anything done through the middle. This is consistent with what I'm seeing in the matches. We score the vast majority of our goals from low crosses into the box. A lot of goals from defenders and a bunch spread across the midfield as they get on the end of crosses. The wide forwards rarely get into shooting positions with the ball at their feet. 

 

Lastly, here is a Mo Salah pass map from a 2-2 draw with City. He didn't manage a single shot all game, attempted one dribble in his own half and as you can see below, a lot his passes came from out wide, passing backwards!

 

Any advice would be appreciated! I'm a bit stumped as to how to get these world-class forwards playing well!

Edited February 3, 2022 by luckydutch

[McGreen]

Make both wingers Inside Forwards and ditch the overlap on both sides!

Overlap makes them wait on the attacking wingback, hold the ball longer, don't run at defence much, ...

[luckydutch]

2 minutes ago, McGreen said:

Make both wingers Inside Forwards and ditch the overlap on both sides!

Overlap makes them wait on the attacking wingback, hold the ball longer, don't run at defence much, ...

I see! That would explain their relatively passive play. 

I worry that by ditching the overlap command, I won't get the (relatively) consistent stream of goals coming in from fullback crosses. I usually score a goal a game from a low cross. Trent is on 15 assists in 18 games!

Suppose you can't have everything in a tactic.

[jens_dewit]

1 hour ago, luckydutch said:

I see! That would explain their relatively passive play. 

I worry that by ditching the overlap command, I won't get the (relatively) consistent stream of goals coming in from fullback crosses. I usually score a goal a game from a low cross. Trent is on 15 assists in 18 games!

Suppose you can't have everything in a tactic.

Wouldn't your wingers take over a bit of those crosses? By letting them overlap, you're giving opponents time to regroup and shore up the box. Letting your wingers cross might take them by surprise more, perhaps earning you even more goals that way? I've always seen overlapping as a tool for possession tactics that want to pass their way into the box the score.

[Sneaky Pete]

Your tactic has a really bad case of square peg in round hole on top of generally not being set up to create goals from your wingers. Your tactic fundamentally does not make sense with the players you have available.

- Your WBs are bombing up the pitch and hitting crosses to... Bobby Firmino, who has the "Comes Deep to Get Ball", "Looks for Pass" and "Likes Ball Played Into Feet" PPMs and is a mediocre finisher. If I had to design the least possibly suitable player for the AF-a role, I would have designed Bobby Firmino. Playing him in this role makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. He is getting low ratings because you're constantly crossing to him and he's getting bullied by Prem-level CBs.

- Your MEZ-a is Thiago. What is a MEZ-a supposed to do? Make aggressive runs with and off the ball, threaten space, provide goals. Is Thiago suitable to this role in any way? No. He has the "Comes Deep to Get Ball" and "Likes Ball Played Into Feet" PPMs and the athleticism of a moderately overweight 45-year-old.

- Salah has the "Looks to Break Offside Trap" PPM to go with elite athleticism and goalscoring ability... but you're playing him in an unselfish role that is not focused on scoring goals. Mané likewise.

This tactic would make sense if you had a monstrous, physically dominant forward (i.e. Haaland or Vlahovic) and an athletic, goalscoring midfielder (think SMS) as well as creative, unselfish wingers. But you have the exact opposite of that. Your tactic is asking your players to do things that run counter to their natural instincts and abilities. No wonder they perform terribly!

Now here's how you un**** it:

Now you have:

- Firmino dropping deep in a creative role to open up space for your two aggressive, goal-scoring wingers.

- Fabinho playing a defensive, buildup-orchestrating role that allows your wingbacks to bomb forwards.

- Thiago in a role that maximises his creative talents and masks the fact that he is short, slow, and weak.

- Play focused on attacking the middle of the pitch rather than hitting crosses to your front 3 who are all poor in the air.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Sneaky Pete

[luckydutch]

54 minutes ago, Sneaky Pete said:

Your tactic has a really bad case of square peg in round hole on top of generally not being set up to create goals from your wingers. Your tactic fundamentally does not make sense with the players you have available.

- Your WBs are bombing up the pitch and hitting crosses to... Bobby Firmino, who has the "Comes Deep to Get Ball", "Looks for Pass" and "Likes Ball Played Into Feet" PPMs and is a mediocre finisher. If I had to design the least possibly suitable player for the AF-a role, I would have designed Bobby Firmino. Playing him in this role makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. He is getting low ratings because you're constantly crossing to him and he's getting bullied by Prem-level CBs.

- Your MEZ-a is Thiago. What is a MEZ-a supposed to do? Make aggressive runs with and off the ball, threaten space, provide goals. Is Thiago suitable to this role in any way? No. He has the "Comes Deep to Get Ball" and "Likes Ball Played Into Feet" PPMs and the athleticism of a moderately overweight 45-year-old.

- Salah has the "Looks to Break Offside Trap" PPM to go with elite athleticism and goalscoring ability... but you're playing him in an unselfish role that is not focused on scoring goals. Mané likewise.

This tactic would make sense if you had a monstrous, physically dominant forward (i.e. Haaland or Vlahovic) and an athletic, goalscoring midfielder (think SMS) as well as creative, unselfish wingers. But you have the exact opposite of that. Your tactic is asking your players to do things that run counter to their natural instincts and abilities. No wonder they perform terribly!

Now here's how you un**** it:

Now you have:

- Firmino dropping deep in a creative role to open up space for your two aggressive, goal-scoring wingers.

- Fabinho playing a defensive, buildup-orchestrating role that allows your wingbacks to bomb forwards.

- Thiago in a role that maximises his creative talents and masks the fact that he is short, slow, and weak.

- Play focused on attacking the middle of the pitch rather than hitting crosses to your front 3 who are all poor in the air.

That’s incredibly helpful, thanks.

I guess I am bad for just reading the description of the role, picking the one I like and then checking that the player has the right stats for it. I neglect to look at PPMs too. My assistant reckons Thiago is a superb Mez and the description sounded like what I was looking for so I went with it.

Firmino is also getting bullied in his role which probably explains why Origi is out-performing him and it’s usually midfielders arriving late into the box that score from crosses, not the AF.

I’ll definitely take another look at it, using your recommendation there.

I’m looking to sell Firmino and Thiago and bring in Mbappe to lead my frontline. I’m guessing he’s going to want to be more of poacher. Can I make that work? I'll also look to replace Thiago with someone who can play more of a Steven Gerrard role. I guess he was kind of a Mezzala or Attacking Midfielder? Charging runs from deep to shoot or play through-balls.

My first choice signing was, in fact, Haaland but Dortmund want 150m for him whereas Mbappe has signed a pre-agreement with me to join on a free. From a financial perspective, it’s the bargain of the century and leaves me budget to go after a long-term Van Dijk understudy like De Ligt.

Edited February 3, 2022 by luckydutch

[Sneaky Pete]

1 hour ago, luckydutch said:

I’m looking to sell Firmino and Thiago and bring in Mbappe to lead my frontline. I’m guessing he’s going to want to be more of poacher. Can I make that work? I'll also look to replace Thiago with someone who can play more of a Steven Gerrard role. I guess he was kind of a Mezzala or Attacking Midfielder? Charging runs from deep to shoot or play through-balls.

Mbappé is going to be a little bit difficult to fit in - it leaves you with 3 forwards none of whom are particularly creative, although Mbappé could be played as a DLFa or CFa since none of his PPMs really interact with playing a striker, but he's lazy and pretty selfish. Mané will create to some extent in the IWa role, but his PPMs make him quite scoring-oriented. I would probably use some of the funds saved by bringing in Mbappé on a free transfer to find a creative winger, or just keep Firmino and rotate between Mbappé/Salah/Mané at AMR/AML.

Gerrard is a prototypical BBM with some very aggressive PPMs to me. You could definitely bring in that type of player and replace the DLP with an AP - Thiago will still work in that role as he has decent positioning and good anticipation, although you will want to replace him eventually as his lack of athleticism is very limiting in a gegenpressing side.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Sneaky Pete

[luckydutch]

26 minutes ago, Sneaky Pete said:

Mbappé is going to be a little bit difficult to fit in - it leaves you with 3 forwards none of whom are particularly creative, although Mbappé could be played as a DLFa or CFa since none of his PPMs really interact with playing a striker, but he's lazy and pretty selfish. Mané will create to some extent in the IWa role, but his PPMs make him quite scoring-oriented. I would probably use some of the funds saved by bringing in Mbappé on a free transfer to find a creative winger, or just keep Firmino and rotate between Mbappé/Salah/Mané at AMR/AML.

Gerrard is a prototypical BBM with some very aggressive PPMs to me. You could definitely bring in that type of player and replace the DLP with an AP - Thiago will still work in that role as he has decent positioning and good anticipation, although you will want to replace him eventually as his lack of athleticism is very limiting in a gegenpressing side.

I fear you're right about Mbappe.

I like the idea of having the 3 forwards bursting forward and running onto through-balls and low-crosses into feet from out wide. It's tricky to have good build-up play without at least one creator in the front 3, though. He also doesn't have great work rate so he's not going to press like my other players. It was just too tempting to grab him on the free and I can't bring myself to let go of Mane or Salah. Too attached to them for my own good!

I just managed to comfortably beat Chelsea in the away leg following this guidance, after struggling to create anything in the first leg with my first tactic. It seems like the biggest impact came from removing that overlap instruction and changing Thiago's role to AP.

I kept both wide forwards on attack but as IFs and they were way more direct without the  overlap instruction. Jota had a stormer and Origi played alright. Firmino still played like a donkey as a F9 and got subbed-off for Adeyemi as an AF who scored almost immediately. Thiago had his first decent game in months.

The problem I have with Thiago is he's old and lazy so I want to cash-in on him but the rest of my midfielders are mostly all-rounders and not really suited to the AP role. Maybe Keita can play that? I've also got Franck Kessié coming in on a free in June but again, he's a bit of a BBM rather than a playmaker.

Edited February 3, 2022 by luckydutch

[(sic)]

3 hours ago, luckydutch said:

I see! That would explain their relatively passive play. 

I worry that by ditching the overlap command, I won't get the (relatively) consistent stream of goals coming in from fullback crosses. I usually score a goal a game from a low cross. Trent is on 15 assists in 18 games!

Suppose you can't have everything in a tactic.

I wouldn't worry about that, Wingbacks will naturally overlap, especially on attack duty. Overlap just makes them even more attacking and the wingers ahead of him more conservative (in the sense that they might not make a run but wait for the WB to overlap). If you want one of your wide players to score more goals, then a switch to a IF-A would be great. If you want to replicate Liverpool more closely, I'd recommend dropping the MEZ-A for a less aggressive role, and having IF-A Salah.

 

4 hours ago, luckydutch said:

It seems like we struggle to get anything done through the middle

I wouldn't worry about that bit of info. In all of my saves, no matter the tactic, I get the same report, "Final Third Entries - Central" listed as negative. It's usually the same thing for the opposition, so it says Opposition Final Third Entries - Central as a positive (meaning they don't really do it often).

[alittletoojack]

a lot of talk about the widemen in here and i don't know about anyone else but i'm having a lot of joy in my Arsenal save with W(a) role but using the player on his unnatural side.

So Saka or Pepe on the right and Nelson or Marinelli on the left.

Pepe already knows PPM cuts inside from right and I am teaching the other guys the same PPM for their respective flank. I am seeing a lot more impactful play from them in this role, dragging their full back out wide and then successfully cutting back inside to create the angle.

[Sneaky Pete]

2 hours ago, luckydutch said:

I kept both wide forwards on attack but as IFs and they were way more direct without the  overlap instruction. Jota had a stormer and Origi played alright. Firmino still played like a donkey as a F9 and got subbed-off for Adeyemi as an AF who scored almost immediately. Thiago had his first decent game in months.

Bolding mine: I find this sometimes happens if the opposition has a lot of players crowding the DM strata defensively, or are sitting very deep so your F9 ends up dribbling into cul-de-sacs and trying creative passes that just aren't on. The F9 is a very aggressive role in that sense despite coming with a support duty.

I find DLFs usually gets better performances out of players in this situation as it's a less ambitious role, and particularly a role that's less prone to dribbling itself into trouble. A speedy AF can also work if it's mostly an issue of the DM strata being extremely crowded, although in that situation I will also sometimes switch a 4-3-3 to a 4-2-3-1 and try to overload that area myself instead of bypassing it.

I'm unsurprised to hear that Thiago did much better as an AP than a Mez - the latter just inherently tries to do too many things that Thiago is too slow to pull off.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Sneaky Pete

[luckydutch]

1 hour ago, Sneaky Pete said:

Bolding mine: I find this sometimes happens if the opposition has a lot of players crowding the DM strata defensively, or are sitting very deep so your F9 ends up dribbling into cul-de-sacs and trying creative passes that just aren't on. The F9 is a very aggressive role in that sense despite coming with a support duty.

I find DLFs usually gets better performances out of players in this situation as it's a less ambitious role, and particularly a role that's less prone to dribbling itself into trouble. A speedy AF can also work if it's mostly an issue of the DM strata being extremely crowded, although in that situation I will also sometimes switch a 4-3-3 to a 4-2-3-1 and try to overload that area myself instead of bypassing it.

I'm unsurprised to hear that Thiago did much better as an AP than a Mez - the latter just inherently tries to do too many things that Thiago is too slow to pull off.

Another very astute observation! You're good at this.

Yes, Chelsea were playing a tonne of midfielders down the centre. 2 DMs and 2 AMs, if I remember correctly.

Perhaps I would have been better-off shifting Firmino out wide and playing someone fast through the middle as AF. That might be the best option for Mbappe, when he arrives too.

I'm still not 100% confident in my role selection for the wide forwards. Just watched a few games in comprehensive and on IF(A), they seem to sometimes go on these long dribbles but get pushed out wide by the defender and just keep going till they run out of space and either whip a cross into the box off their weaker foot or turn 180 and double-back on themselves. Considering going back to IW(S) now that the overlap command is gone and they're no longer stopping to wait for the full-back all the time.

I want them coming inside as often as possible, either with the ball at their feet and looking to shot/play a through ball or to get on the receiving end of a low cross.

After that, I just need to work out how to orientate the midfield after I sell Thiago. I'm liking the half-back you suggested and liking one at BBM. I'm just not convinced my squad has many ultra creative playmakers. I think playing two BBMs will mean I don't have good passing triangles in transition as they both look to burst forward. Perhaps just a simple CM(S)?

 

[Sneaky Pete]

2 hours ago, luckydutch said:

I'm still not 100% confident in my role selection for the wide forwards. Just watched a few games in comprehensive and on IF(A), they seem to sometimes go on these long dribbles but get pushed out wide by the defender and just keep going till they run out of space and either whip a cross into the box off their weaker foot or turn 180 and double-back on themselves. Considering going back to IW(S) now that the overlap command is gone and they're no longer stopping to wait for the full-back all the time.

I want them coming inside as often as possible, either with the ball at their feet and looking to shot/play a through ball or to get on the receiving end of a low cross.

 

Bolding mine: this is unfortunately just a known and built-in weakness of the current ME, but one that they are expressly trying to fix in the next patch. Any wide role will do this, although IF-a is probably slightly more prone to it than a less aggressive role. However, IF-a will make diagonal runs behind the defense off the ball when the space is there, so you will still get them coming inside to get on the end of crosses/through balls. You can try Raumdeuter or APs as those roles dribble much less than the IF/IW/winger roles. I don't think APs really suits any of your players bar Bobby so you're probably stuck with at least one dribble-prone role.

But hey - at least they cut the ball back instead of hammering it into the fullback's shins like last year!

2 hours ago, luckydutch said:

I'm just not convinced my squad has many ultra creative playmakers.

Then you should buy or develop some. Goals don't create themselves, and somebody has to release your wingbacks and forwards into space.