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I solved the 4231 IF/IW problem! My insane tactic!


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I tried for years to get my wingers to score and perform in my 4231 system. And fianllyI solved it. I have created this insane tactic which works SO well. Look at the stats its amazing. Just beat FC Bayern 4-1 in CL. Its Karim Adeyemi´s first season. Imagine him in a few years. Hedoesnt take any set pices or penalties. He is INSANE as an IF.

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4 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

I tried for years to get my wingers to score and perform in my 4231 system. And fianllyI solved it. I have created this insane tactic which works SO well. Look at the stats its amazing. Just beat FC Bayern 4-1 in CL. Its Karim Adeyemi´s first season. Imagine him in a few years. Hedoesnt take any set pices or penalties. He is INSANE as an IF.

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Ibrahimovic as AF? Really wow. How is that working out? He has many goals?

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Is this some kind of downloaded exploit?? In your attacking transition phase depending on ppms of your right full back you have literally 2 players defending! should easily get ripped apart on the counter, fair play!

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36 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Yeah not a single holding midfielder in a formation that traditionally employs a double-pivot. I don't get it.

40 minutes ago, Hilly1979 said:

Is this some kind of downloaded exploit?? In your attacking transition phase depending on ppms of your right full back you have literally 2 players defending! should easily get ripped apart on the counter, fair play!

It looks like tactics similar to this often overperform. The usual thing they have is just attack duties on the front 3-4 players, runners from midfield with nobody holding, and everyone bombing forward.

I'm guessing there's enough support from midfield and fullbacks that it doesn't matter that everyone in the front 3 is on attack duty. Also that should leave just 2 CBs (+ maybe the FB-S) that can protect against the counter, but I'm guessing the AI teams just never exploit that or that they don't get a chance to counter often. After all 62 Goals for and 4 against show that.

Edited by (sic)
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2 hours ago, Hilly1979 said:

Is this some kind of downloaded exploit?? In your attacking transition phase depending on ppms of your right full back you have literally 2 players defending! should easily get ripped apart on the counter, fair play!

looks fairly similar to one of the Knap tactics

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3 horas atrás, crusadertsar disse:

Yeah not a single holding midfielder in a formation that traditionally employs a double-pivot. I don't get it.

Were you being sarcastic? :D Because I've seen some formations like 442 with no defend duty in midfield

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4 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Ibrahimovic as AF? Really wow. How is that working out? He has many goals?

I found that traits are more profound than PI’s. Although he is an AF his traits are making him come deeper and act more like a DLF. So the distance between my AMC and Zlatan is not big. He is scoring okay.
But when I use Brenner the distance is bigger and he acts way more like a traditional AF. 

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4 hours ago, Hilly1979 said:

Is this some kind of downloaded exploit?? In your attacking transition phase depending on ppms of your right full back you have literally 2 players defending! should easily get ripped apart on the counter, fair play!

No I developed this from looking at my data hub’s passing patterns and my players position on the pitch. Note that I use balanced mentality and it helps a lot to sit two DM’s rather than two CM’s. And RPM and the Volante runs. They run A LOT. So they are basically acting like two types of BTB. I’m not using high pressure. I sit deeper and when opposition is at the middle of the pitch I go all in on winning the ball. No counterpress. Regroup right away. 

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4 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Yeah not a single holding midfielder in a formation that traditionally employs a double-pivot. I don't get it.

Balanced mentality. No attacking duties for my 4 defenders or two midfielders. And I don’t use high genenpress. 

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29 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

No i wasn't being sarcastic. In real life teams could never play gung-ho like this and still receive results like that. It works in the game though, so good for the OP. But @(sic) already said it better than me. They work because they overwhelm the opposition and expoilt AI's weakness. It will give results though. Just not the way I would play. 

I don’t play gung-ho. Balanced mentality. No high press. And people really underestimate how much more important personal traits are. Especially this year I think. 

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17 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

I don’t play gung-ho. Balanced mentality. No high press. And people really underestimate how much more important personal traits are. Especially this year I think. 

People put too much emphasis on the duty someone has without ever really understanding what the roles offer and how they all play together. Your tactic is very well balanced and the midfield 2 drop deep. Your team plays as an actual team, moves up and down the pitch as one. Something people seem to be missing in this thread. The midfield two allow your front players to be more aggressive. But I don't get why people think you are gung-ho or over aggressive.

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There are no players to protect against the counter. That is gung-ho. We get that there are two CDM’s protecting the backline in the defensive shape, but in the defensive transition there are nobody as both the RPM and VOL will go forward as will the FBs. 

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Going to massively disagree with a lot of people here, and say I don't think there is anything wrong with that MC role pairing

The key there is two well balanced midfielders, When you look at the individual attributes of Tonali and Kessie, they are excellent choices in there. It's a proper mobile double pivot. You could even make the RB play defend and sit narrow, send the LB to an attack duty and create a really nice 3-1-6 attack

Somewhat demanding system, but well balanced with the right players. 

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This could be one of those tactics that works with a good/great team and the right players.  Will it work if you playing as 20th place Venezia who have allowed 57 goals in 25 games?  Likely no.

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8 minutes ago, Lasson said:

There are no players to protect against the counter. That is gung-ho. We get that there are two CDM’s protecting the backline in the defensive shape, but in the defensive transition there are nobody as both the RPM and VOL will go forward as will the FBs. 

On support they don't venture that far really and are still well positioned to cover defensively. Because his entire team moves together up and down the pitch, it eliminates these 'counters' you speak of. Its no more susceptible to counters than using defensive roles. If he'd have used an anchorman or something, what happens is they hang back and play as a 'lone' player. You still can be countered and be run ragged as a counter involves more than one player. So the player hanging back cannot cover the entire pitch anyway. It's why lots of people used to struggle with the 4231 shape on FM.

He still has players to protect against the counter, its not like all 10 outfield players are going to be camped deep in the oppositions half when he attacks. That's just not going to happen. His choice of players he uses, their traits, the duties he has chosen for the roles are a great balance overall.

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26 minutes ago, dazza11 said:

what PI's are you using?

Tighter marking on the front 4. AML/AMC/AMR Roaming and AMC also move into channels. RB is on get further forward. That’s it. If I meet weak opponent I put my Segundo Volante on Attack. 

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26 minutes ago, Cleon said:

People put too much emphasis on the duty someone has without ever really understanding what the roles offer and how they all play together. Your tactic is very well balanced and the midfield 2 drop deep. Your team plays as an actual team, moves up and down the pitch as one. Something people seem to be missing in this thread. The midfield two allow your front players to be more aggressive. But I don't get why people think you are gung-ho or over aggressive.

Spot on! I developed this by watching game after game during pre season in 2D so I could clearly see the moving and passing patterns. 

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21 minutes ago, Lasson said:

There are no players to protect against the counter. That is gung-ho. We get that there are two CDM’s protecting the backline in the defensive shape, but in the defensive transition there are nobody as both the RPM and VOL will go forward as will the FBs. 

What he says👇

 

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21 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Going to massively disagree with a lot of people here, and say I don't think there is anything wrong with that MC role pairing

The key there is two well balanced midfielders, When you look at the individual attributes of Tonali and Kessie, they are excellent choices in there. It's a proper mobile double pivot. You could even make the RB play defend and sit narrow, send the LB to an attack duty and create a really nice 3-1-6 attack

Somewhat demanding system, but well balanced with the right players. 

Exactly. I watch moving and passing patterns all the time and make small tweaks during the game if things aren’t working out. But often it’s very well balanced and my tweaks are often focus passing, hit early crosses, shoot on sight etc. 

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3 minutes ago, Cleon said:

On support they don't venture that far really and are still well positioned to cover defensively. Because his entire team moves together up and down the pitch, it eliminates these 'counters' you speak of. Its no more susceptible to counters than using defensive roles. If he'd have used an anchorman or something, what happens is they hang back and play as a 'lone' player. You still can be countered and be run ragged as a counter involves more than one player. So the player hanging back cannot cover the entire pitch anyway. It's why lots of people used to struggle with the 4231 shape on FM.

He still has players to protect against the counter, its not like all 10 outfield players are going to be camped deep in the oppositions half when he attacks. That's just not going to happen. His choice of players he uses, their traits, the duties he has chosen for the roles are a great balance overall.

Hmmm, that's what I was kinda hinting at when I said that "the AI teams just never exploit that or that they don't get a chance to counter often", but I guess I didn't explain it properly. The only concern I had was the fact that when transition happens everyone is forward except the CBs, which would result in everyone having to track back. The main logic there being that, if you have a holding mid or a more defensive fullback, you would have another player that can protect against the counter. Either by stepping out to clear the ball, engaging the opponents, or just standing in front of the player preventing him from shooting, passing forward, etc. With everyone being forward, if you don't prevent the opponents from passing forward before your team gets back into the position, the only two defenders are the CBs. I'm again guessing that this isn't the issue here and that counters like that are very rare, because players do prevent that long ball towards the strikers.

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Without trying out the tactic, I don't feel that is gung-ho or an exploit, at all.

I see a user who struggled and finally found something that works for him, so congrats to the author.

But the formation is deep by default, he's using a balanced mentality, regroup, no maxed out LOE/LOD, geggenpressing and all the stuff you see in the majority of tactics...

And there aren't even so many attacking roles, they're just up front and having an AP linking miedfield-attack. It seems like plenty of support to me and a team attacking and defending as a cohesive unit.

Regarding the defensive record, well done indeed! And as for Ibra playing the AF-A role, just remember, he can play there, he will just play the role differently...

Edited by davidbarros2
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16 minutes ago, (sic) said:

Hmmm, that's what I was kinda hinting at when I said that "the AI teams just never exploit that or that they don't get a chance to counter often", but I guess I didn't explain it properly. The only concern I had was the fact that when transition happens everyone is forward except the CBs, which would result in everyone having to track back. The main logic there being that, if you have a holding mid or a more defensive fullback, you would have another player that can protect against the counter. Either by stepping out to clear the ball, engaging the opponents, or just standing in front of the player preventing him from shooting, passing forward, etc. With everyone being forward, if you don't prevent the opponents from passing forward before your team gets back into the position, the only two defenders are the CBs. I'm again guessing that this isn't the issue here and that counters like that are very rare, because players do prevent that long ball towards the strikers.

He has more than the CB's though. He has a full back who is quite conservative and will be positioned to deal with counters and both the MC's will be positioned to deal too. So he has the positional cover as all 10 players don't attack the same areas or go really deep due to his duties. Even though his team moves up and down the pitch together, they're all still covering different ground and coming up/down in deeper/higher positions. All players are doing it from different areas. that's why he has balance

I'm speaking generally here and not at you specifically but it seems people have this idea that all his players will be in the same areas deep in the oppositions half. Based on the responses people assume he is always going to have 10 players out of position. This should rarely ever happen.

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1 minute ago, davidbarros2 said:

Without trying out the tactic, I don't feel that is gung-ho or an exploit, at all.

I see a user who struggles and finally found something that works for him, so congrats to the author.

But the formation is deep by default, he's using a balanced mentality, regroup, no maxed out LOE/LOD, geggenpressing and all the stuff you see in the majority of tactics...

And there aren't even so many attacking roles, they're just up front and having an AP linking miedfield-attack. It seems like plenty of support to me and a team attacking and defending as a cohesive unit.

Regarding the defensive record, well done indeed! And as for Ibra playing the AF-A role, just remember, he can play there, he will just play the role differently...

Exactly right. Especially about Zlatan. I think people are generally focused too much on the role.

Obviously Zlatan will not run in behind defenders because he is too slow and his natural behavior (traits) says he will sit deeper and be a more combining AF. Almost like af DLF.
So if I lack possession or meeting weak opponents who sits deep, I like to use him. Against better opponents I use Brenner or sometimes Leao. They will try to beat the offside trap and just run run run. My experience is that AF is a more balanced role that people realize. It’s not just a transition/counter role. 

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5 minutes ago, Cleon said:

He has more than the CB's though. He has a full back who is quite conservative and will be positioned to deal with counters and both the MC's will be positioned to deal too. So he has the positional cover as all 10 players don't attack the same areas or go really deep due to his duties. Even though his team moves up and down the pitch together, they're all still covering different ground and coming up/down in deeper/higher positions. All players are doing it from different areas. that's why he has balance

I'm speaking generally here and not at you specifically but it seems people have this idea that all his players will be in the same areas deep in the oppositions half. Based on the responses people assume he is always going to have 10 players out of position. This should rarely ever happen.

Exactly. I’m taking advantage of Calabria is very strong defensively. I tend to cover the area when my Volante is going forward.

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24 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Exactly right. Especially about Zlatan. I think people are generally focused too much on the role.

Obviously Zlatan will not run in behind defenders because he is too slow and his natural behavior (traits) says he will sit deeper and be a more combining AF. Almost like af DLF.
So if I lack possession or meeting weak opponents who sits deep, I like to use him. Against better opponents I use Brenner or sometimes Leao. They will try to beat the offside trap and just run run run. My experience is that AF is a more balanced role that people realize. It’s not just a transition/counter role. 

Based on all the tactics I see posted on here, the AF is by far the most underused / underrated

You also don't need a lot of pace for it to work.  What's more important for runs in behind is the mental stats like off the ball. If you read the role description and watch full games, you'll notice they actually do a lot of things and are far from pure goalscorers like a poacher. 

If you watch spurs since Conte has come in, Harry kane, a fairly immobile striker, is clearly playing as the furtherst player forward, not just making runs in behind but also playing nice passes and holding up the ball. This is what an AF really is, and I think Ibrahimovic could play this role really well.

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I use the exact same instructions in and out of possession in my 442, with only a couple differences in transition (I don’t regroup for instance, nor counter-press; just leave that as is and tend to distribute quickly though if wasting possession too much I’ll leave that blank or go to CB’s)…

The ‘hit early crosses’ seems to be the key for me, something about that instruction just helps open games up unexpectedly. 

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Love the 4-2-3-1 2DM!  Solid defensively, even with non-anchor roles.  I do like to put one DM on A/HB/DM when I have a significantly inferior team.  It can sometimes present challenges with the gap between the 2 DMs and the forwards but if you can manage that....

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I found very similar with a 4-4-2 & using two central midfielders on a Support duty

I always found with a D duty, they'd hang too far back & be defending nothing when we're on the ball & offered nothing apart from a deep recycling option

With two S duties they'd attack & defend intelligently, both wouldn't fly forward together, there'd always be a bit of distance between them, one covering the other   

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2 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

I found very similar with a 4-4-2 & using two central midfielders on a Support duty

I always found with a D duty, they'd hang too far back & be defending nothing when we're on the ball & offered nothing apart from a deep recycling option

With two S duties they'd attack & defend intelligently, both wouldn't fly forward together, there'd always be a bit of distance between them, one covering the other   

And if you feel like your CM on support is too adventurous you just ask him to hold position. That's what I do when I play a 4231 with the CM on support and DLP on support

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23 minutes ago, DarJ said:

And if you feel like your CM on support is too adventurous you just ask him to hold position. That's what I do when I play a 4231 with the CM on support and DLP on support

Also you have to remember that DLP(s) is already a holding role. It comes with "hold position" by default. You might even be risking making your midfield too conservative and lacking punch by asking a second midfielder (CM) to also hold position.

Edited by crusadertsar
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4 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Also have to remember that DLP(s) is already a holding role. It comes with "hold position" by default. You might even be risking making your midfield too conservative and lacking punch by asking a second midfielder (CM) to also hold position.

I get that but in a 4234 you already have 4 players attacking and depending on how it's set-up you may have the fullbacks joining in too, you don't need more and asking the CM to hold his position also helps to recycle possession because he'll always be free to receive the pass

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17 minutes ago, DarJ said:

I get that but in a 4234 you already have 4 players attacking and depending on how it's set-up you may have the fullbacks joining in too, you don't need more and asking the CM to hold his position also helps to recycle possession because he'll always be free to receive the pass

Yeah fair enough. But then the OP's success kind of showed us that's not really true sometimes. You can be very successful without any roles dedicated to holding back. It's more about how they move as a team anyway. 

Edited by crusadertsar
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9 hours ago, Jyuan83 said:

@ThomasHK1979how many goals and assists did rafael leao get for you as your left aml as IW(a)?

Interesting question. For some reason Leao is not performing as well as Adeyemi. Cant figure out why, because Leao has actually better attributes than Adeyemi.

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15 hours ago, glengarry224 said:

Love the 4-2-3-1 2DM!  Solid defensively, even with non-anchor roles.  I do like to put one DM on A/HB/DM when I have a significantly inferior team.  It can sometimes present challenges with the gap between the 2 DMs and the forwards but if you can manage that....

So maybe a DMsup instead of my RPM?

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10 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Interesting question. For some reason Leao is not performing as well as Adeyemi. Cant figure out why, because Leao has actually better attributes than Adeyemi.

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That is interesting topic as had exact issue with other players - you would need watch games in full to figure out work rate, how he is passing & loosing, pressing etc etc it might be even on his side are better defenders

Edited by Lewis Stewart
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3 hours ago, poobington said:

Would you mind posting more of your AC Milan Team stats? Keen to see where the goals coming from, seeing as there are so many, as well as the assists.

Sure. Tell me what you need. Here is some.

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22 hours ago, Lasson said:

There are no players to protect against the counter. That is gung-ho. We get that there are two CDM’s protecting the backline in the defensive shape, but in the defensive transition there are nobody as both the RPM and VOL will go forward as will the FBs. 

You need to realise the players in those roles, Kessie in particular is fantastic as he has the workrate, physical characteristics and strong defensive attributes to be able to cover no matter what his role. Tonali isnt a slouch either, Id say at the start of the game you cant get a much better double pivot that is capable of controlling a game in a 2 man pairing.

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OP is 'Focus play down the right' unticked in your screenshot, but normally selected when you play? Basing this off the passing map and stats.

And in the passing map have you flipped the RPM/VOL roles from your screenshot? At a min the players themselves have.

In regards to why is Leao not doing 'as well', you're going to have two 30 goal positions this season from your collective centre forwards and right-side attacker. It's asking a lot to have three 30 goal positions, barring some OTT plug and play.

One thing that seems to be reinforced here is how much pace matters. Adeymi doesn't look that great TBH, he's fast and gets up to speed quickly, can dribble and shoot a bit and is determined. But a lot of other stuff isn't there. Would think with his low balance/aggression/bravery/composure he'd be a soft touch, but obviously not. And 15 assists with mediocre passing, vision, and decisions?

Edited by CaptCanuck
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I have been struggling with finding some consistency with Maine Road so I thought I would give it a go.

Started off well and then for no reason lost three in a row haha. Probably due to the fact I don't have proper def mids - which I can't afford

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57 minutes ago, jmb1403 said:

I have been struggling with finding some consistency with Maine Road so I thought I would give it a go.

Started off well and then for no reason lost three in a row haha. Probably due to the fact I don't have proper def mids - which I can't afford

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I would put your WBR on FB instead and set his PI to get further forward. 
PI

AF: tighter marking

AML: tighter marking and roaming

AMC: tighter marking,  Roaming, Move into channels

AMR: tighter marking and roaming

For your two DMs. Good physics, work rate, tackle, teamwork, passing. 

 

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14 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

I would put your WBR on FB instead and set his PI to get further forward. 
PI

AF: tighter marking

AML: tighter marking and roaming

AMC: tighter marking,  Roaming, Move into channels

AMR: tighter marking and roaming

For your two DMs. Good physics, work rate, tackle, teamwork, passing. 

 

Nice away win apart from being slightly dominated

Two Def Mids got good ratings even as they arent naturally DMs

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Edited by jmb1403
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I used this tactic more than halfway through my udinese save in 2027.   Beat roma and juve to get to coppa Italia finals. 

 

Defeated Inter 4-4 in penalties.  I almost cried.  Wanted to win trophy so bad.  

The only issue is I have no idea what to do to "see the game out" or what to do if I wanna go even more attacking.

My team was predicted to finish 10th btw. I love that this turned out to be a "defensive" tactic.  So sick of geggenpress tiki taka tactics.  Need some more jose Mourinho and diego simeone type tactics on this forum that work well with ME and are also as close replicas as possible.

 

This was all on FM21.

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On 20/01/2022 at 17:19, Pelz said:

I use the exact same instructions in and out of possession in my 442, with only a couple differences in transition (I don’t regroup for instance, nor counter-press; just leave that as is and tend to distribute quickly though if wasting possession too much I’ll leave that blank or go to CB’s)…

The ‘hit early crosses’ seems to be the key for me, something about that instruction just helps open games up unexpectedly. 

What roles do you use in your 442

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3 hours ago, ta11zx said:

I used this tactic more than halfway through my udinese save in 2027.   Beat roma and juve to get to coppa Italia finals. 

 

Defeated Inter 4-4 in penalties.  I almost cried.  Wanted to win trophy so bad.  

The only issue is I have no idea what to do to "see the game out" or what to do if I wanna go even more attacking.

My team was predicted to finish 10th btw. I love that this turned out to be a "defensive" tactic.  So sick of geggenpress tiki taka tactics.  Need some more jose Mourinho and diego simeone type tactics on this forum that work well with ME and are also as close replicas as possible.

 

This was all on FM21.

Nice to hear. If I’m behind I adjust the focus play, early crosses, shoot on sight and maybe positive mentality. If this doesn’t help I choose a much higher LOE and stuck in. 

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