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Lowest lines, no pressure, defensive mentality - it works


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  • nully29 changed the title to Lowest lines, no pressure, defensive mentality - it works
Posted (edited)

First dozen matches I was watching full games and the tactic works like this. 

On defense, all players are very deep around our box. Killer balls are not an option for an opposition. In previous match engines ops would just score from 30 yards with my whole team in the box. This time long shots are blocked by 3 CMs and a TFs. Ops resort to flank attacks but defending wide with 5 at the back takes far post crosses away too. I do concede some corners but corners are not that dangerous in this engine. In my first season I let in 6 goals from corners and it was the worst on the league. We rarely foul. Least fouls in the league and almost no yellow cards. I have Ease tackles both as PI and OI often.

The offense is inspired by NFL. This is where I've learned the distinction between passing game and a running game. We play running game. There's no quick transition for a devastating counter. Instead, we slowly pass the ball to the full back or mezzala, who runs the ball up the pitch and gets a throw in. Then we do it again and again. We draw a lot of fouls for wide free kicks. Also get on wide areas, creating corners or crosses to TF. Our only move in the open play is that sometimes a weak-side mezzala is making a run off the ball, gets a diagonal pass from another mezzala, gets behind the defense and scores. If we lose the ball, we immediately regroup. We never let opponent run a counter.

If we let in a goal, we keep playing the same way. We do not change mentality or do anything at all to go on the attack and tie game. Even with those settings, against opponent that's sitting back, we generate a lot of free kicks and corners. Once I even had a come from behind 2-1 win.

Edited by nully29
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I like this post. I've been playing with different kinds of low blocks lately. Some of these spectacularly failed in my face and others did a lot better.  I find that its very important to pay attention to the "fighters' in your team, those you expect to see win the 2nd ball or win the initial header. If you dont have players like that in your team you will struggle to play a low block. I lost a player central to how we were supposed to play and we went on a long losing streak.

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In the stream "Countdown Challenge Rescuing Villa Ep 8" on the channel Daljit's Moments you can see that this just doesn't consistently work. A normally very good player gets slapped left and right by the AI. I mean it wouldn't make a lot of sense as well, I don't know a single team that vastly outperforms expectations over a longer period by playing this kind of football.

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2 hours ago, FelixCAN said:

In the stream "Countdown Challenge Rescuing Villa Ep 8" on the channel Daljit's Moments you can see that this just doesn't consistently work. A normally very good player gets slapped left and right by the AI. I mean it wouldn't make a lot of sense as well, I don't know a single team that vastly outperforms expectations over a longer period by playing this kind of football.

Unfortunately, couldn't agree more. It's a way of playing when you are trying to scrape by as an underdog. But its not how you can be successful longterm or consistently challenge the top teams in your league. AI big boys like Liverpool or Real Madrid will just run all over you doing their typically overpowered gagenpress thing. It's unfair I agree but that's the game for you. 

Anyway would still love to see how he does with this approach.

Edited by crusadertsar
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On 01/01/2022 at 19:29, nully29 said:

I am currently having fun with lowest lines, hold shape, regroup, trigger press much less often, much lower tempo and defensive mentality. All those supposedly "auto-lose" tactics. Gotta give credit to SI - they finally made a match engine where I managed to make a working ultra-defensive tactics.

We defend with 10 men behind the ball and win games 1-0. It works. At least, in Canada. I initially started with Winnipeg Valour, but had to restart on a different notebook after seven matches. I was 2-3-2 in those 7 matches. However, the squad didn't fit in formation, I had to put wingers in mezzala roles and players whined that the squad is lacking depth in central midfield. Next time around, I played a create-a-club mode, relocated Atletiko Ottawa to Saskatoon and cleared the squad so I could hire players that fit this style. I started out with no players at all and only signed up those free agents who offered their services. I finished the season 5th out of 8. The team was playing a lot of 1-0, 0-0, 0-1 and some occasional 0-3. We scored 2 goals in 2 games out of 28. In the rest we scored either one or nothing.

In the second season I started with 1-0, 0-0, 1-0, 1-0, 2-0 in first 5 games and currently sit atop of the table.  Unfortunately, I have to put the game on hold as I am off for vacation, but I believe the results are interesting enough to share:

The tactic looks like this. Roles are customized to some extent, mostly with Dribble more. I also heavily use OI to press opponent flank players and mark opponents central players.

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If would love to see some stats from the league page and the Data Hub. Also would like a download link

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8 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Unfortunately, couldn't agree more. It's a way of playing when you are trying to scrape by as an underdog. But its not how you can be successful longterm or consistently challenge the top teams in your league. AI big boys like Liverpool or Real Madrid will just run all over you doing their typically overpowered gagenpress thing. It's unfair I agree but that's the game for you. 

Anyway would still love to see how he does with this approach.

Trust me, you can stop liverpool with a low line of defence and a slow style.

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16 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Unfortunately, couldn't agree more. It's a way of playing when you are trying to scrape by as an underdog. But its not how you can be successful longterm or consistently challenge the top teams in your league. AI big boys like Liverpool or Real Madrid will just run all over you doing their typically overpowered gagenpress thing. It's unfair I agree but that's the game for you. 

Anyway would still love to see how he does with this approach.

@Cleon exclusively used low-low defensive lines and has been rather successful, even when his teams became favourites. Daljit also mentioned it’s a viable tactic, as long as you have the right players who can execute it. In his Villa series, his losses came from a combination of player injuries (to key players) and a run against top sides that destroyed morale. The same could also happen if you was to play a more aggressive style too.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Cleon:

It's all I use. Not sure why people say it isn't a long-term strategy and isn't stable enough for success long-term. I guess it says more about their lack of understanding in how the game works more than anything else. Or they're listening/watching/reading stuff by others who don't know what they're on about. But 100% it is viable to play like this and not be dominated by better sides, then as you improve and become better yourself, you can still be as dominant yourself. I don't want to hijack the thread but I'll gladly show people who say you can't play this way long-term evidence, stats etc that disapproves everything they say. 

 

Just wow. You have been all talk and share nothing for months now. And you come in and insult basically the entire community? Everybody else would be sanctioned for that. The tactic you felt so gracious to share with us idiots who don't understand the game had nothing to do with what 99% of people think about in terms of low lines and whatnot anyway.

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18 minutes ago, MessiMessiMessi said:

Just wow. You have been all talk and share nothing for months now. And you come in and insult basically the entire community? Everybody else would be sanctioned for that. The tactic you felt so gracious to share with us idiots who don't understand the game had nothing to do with what 99% of people think about in terms of low lines and whatnot anyway.

Imagine thinking people can just magic up content when they want without planning, playing and writing it. I also never shared a tactic, it's not what I do but you carry on.

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vor 9 Minuten schrieb Cleon:

Imagine thinking people can just magic up content when they want without planning, playing and writing it. I also never shared a tactic, it's not what I do but you carry on.

Yep, all you do is big announcements, insulting and trying to lecture people and acting like people are too stupid to understand football and the game football manager. And for some reason moderators don't care about it. Big announcements no show should be an immediate ban.

Edited by MessiMessiMessi
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2 hours ago, MessiMessiMessi said:

Yep, all you do is big announcements, insulting and trying to lecture people and acting like people are too stupid to understand football and the game football manager. And for some reason moderators don't care about it. Big announcements no show should be an immediate ban.

You obviously dont know who you are talking too. 

 

Maybe come back in a few years once youve had time to go back and read some of Cleons work, and learn something about the game before you call him out as a no show. 

 

Stans ffs

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23 minutes ago, MessiMessiMessi said:

Who are you? Nice multiaccount I'd say. Because Mourinho was the best coach 15 years ago he's still today? I doubt it. Also it's great that you mention the old threads, because I've read that what is left of it, even though without screenshots it is really pointless, but the user Cleon showed the same attitude there. He showed something that allegedly worked, then others tried it, lost every game, and asked for help, and he was using the same excuse as here, everybody else is too stupid to understand the game meaning it's not his fault. Show me a tactic that gets 4th with Burnley with low line and no pressing and I will gladly learn about it, but he is just talking talking talking and when somebody questions him it's not his fault because everybody who needs to ask him or loses is too stupid to understand the game.

 

 

who am I? My name is Callamity and I know enough to make it work for me :)

Multi account? More evidence of a troll trolling. 

You are just talking, talking, talking.

Its a lack of knowledge about the game, the players, the attributes, the roles, the match engine, football in general, that make it not work for people.

That is why 99% of people throw the kitchen sink at the match engine, see it getting 33-3 shots win a lot of games, then cry about the game being broke when they lost a 33-1 shot game 0-1. 

Prove me wrong, and I'll believe you

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vor 17 Minuten schrieb callamity:

 

 

who am I? My name is Callamity and I know enough to make it work for me :)

Multi account? More evidence of a troll trolling. 

You are just talking, talking, talking.

Its a lack of knowledge about the game, the players, the attributes, the roles, the match engine, football in general, that make it not work for people.

That is why 99% of people throw the kitchen sink at the match engine, see it getting 33-3 shots win a lot of games, then cry about the game being broke when they lost a 33-1 shot game 0-1. 

Prove me wrong, and I'll believe you

It was already mentioned here that the moderator Rashidi was losing every game with Aston Villa !!! with such a tactic now you come here and tell me I'm trolling because I say it's insulting and a straight up lie, that the only people who can't win with this tactic are people who are too stupid to understand the game? Give me a damn break. And again, who are you to ******* cleon '******, who hasn't provided anything meaningful after 3 months. If this is so easy he could just show it and not just insult people who believe it doesn't reliably work and talk again. Same pattern as in the old threads from him. People show how they use similar principle, lose every game, and they are the stupid ones according to him. Nobody on this forum can be as insulting and lying as him without any consequence.

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1 hour ago, MessiMessiMessi said:

Show me a tactic that gets 4th with Burnley with low line and no pressing and I will gladly learn about it

Why should this be possible?

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29 minutes ago, MessiMessiMessi said:

It was already mentioned here that the moderator Rashidi was losing every game with Aston Villa !!! with such a tactic now you come here and tell me I'm trolling because I say it's insulting and a straight up lie, that the only people who can't win with this tactic are people who are too stupid to understand the game? Give me a damn break. And again, who are you to ******* cleon '******, who hasn't provided anything meaningful after 3 months. If this is so easy he could just show it and not just insult people who believe it doesn't reliably work and talk again. Same pattern as in the old threads from him. People show how they use similar principle, lose every game, and they are the stupid ones according to him. Nobody on this forum can be as insulting and lying as him without any consequence.

I know Rashidi/Daljit, I would like to say hes a friend and mentor of mine and he has proven this works in the right circumstances. He definitely does not lose every game with aston villa. 

Who am I to Cleon? He's obviously my wife and I would die to protect him...

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1 hour ago, MessiMessiMessi said:

It was already mentioned here that the moderator Rashidi was losing every game with Aston Villa !!! with such a tactic now you come here and tell me I'm trolling because I say it's insulting and a straight up lie, that the only people who can't win with this tactic are people who are too stupid to understand the game? Give me a damn break. And again, who are you to ******* cleon '******, who hasn't provided anything meaningful after 3 months. If this is so easy he could just show it and not just insult people who believe it doesn't reliably work and talk again. Same pattern as in the old threads from him. People show how they use similar principle, lose every game, and they are the stupid ones according to him. Nobody on this forum can be as insulting and lying as him without any consequence.

Are you always this angry on every thread?

Edited by Jrddrkly
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8 hours ago, Cleon said:

It's all I use. Not sure why people say it isn't a long-term strategy and isn't stable enough for success long-term. I guess it says more about their lack of understanding in how the game works more than anything else. Or they're listening/watching/reading stuff by others who don't know what they're on about. But 100% it is viable to play like this and not be dominated by better sides, then as you improve and become better yourself, you can still be as dominant yourself. I don't want to hijack the thread but I'll gladly show people who say you can't play this way long-term evidence, stats etc that disapproves everything they say. 

 

Can you please show how you can play this way and still be sucessfull?  Reminds of of a diego simione 2013 athletico type tactic.  

 

Please share your ideas on how it is possible  

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37 minutes ago, FelixCAN said:

If a 20-year veteran of the game who's incredibly skilled can't perform at least on par with realistic expectations with this kind of tactic, why should I expect to be able to do it?

Honestly, that is not where you should base your reasoning on nor is it mastering other systems; everyone knows that it is hard to play a low block tactic that's why most stay away from it because depending on different scenarios you have to pay attention to what happens and you need a plan if the low block is too overwhelmed. So it is a hassle for most players despite how good you are, this just regarding a low block regardless of mentality. If you mean defensive team mentalities, then you need to have a plan on how to attack; the transition into attack; how you plan to press smartly. If you mean attacking mentalities*, then be careful with pressing and make sure the roles & duties make sense. Also looking at examples like why catenaccio died or Jose Mourinho defensive teams should help your stance about low blocks. For most especially Daljit it not about about being accomplished with this system; it whether you willing to struggle with the tactic and endure mishaps that occur close to the goal.

*I'm already aware of tactic exploits that are very attacking/high intensity and have a low block so i was trying to be realistic in this approach.

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Gerade eben schrieb FrazT:

Because you are not abiding by the forum rules.- give it a rest now

Please what? It's against forum rules to tell somebody that it doesnt work what he proclaims wins premier league with sheffield?

What rule is that please. I ask a question. Thats all.

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In your first post you stated:

cleon is full of **** or a savescummer.

I have no concerns about the tactical issues- just cut out that kind of comment

 

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On 07/01/2022 at 16:22, crusadertsar said:

Unfortunately, couldn't agree more. It's a way of playing when you are trying to scrape by as an underdog. But its not how you can be successful longterm or consistently challenge the top teams in your league. AI big boys like Liverpool or Real Madrid will just run all over you doing their typically overpowered gagenpress thing. It's unfair I agree but that's the game for you. 

Anyway would still love to see how he does with this approach.

Don't think its particularly fair to be calling it overpowered when referring to big teams like City and Liverpool  tbh. City are pissing the league in a high pressing system, Liverpool trounced the league with gegenpress. It's not overpowered if it reflects reality to me

 

Winning the league in season 2 with Villa playing a 4-2-3-1 gegenpress, yeah then it's overpowered

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1 minute ago, bluestillidie00 said:

Don't think its particularly fair to be calling it overpowered when referring to big teams like City and Liverpool  tbh. City are pissing the league in a high pressing system, Liverpool trounced the league with gegenpress. It's not overpowered if it reflects reality to me

 

Winning the league in season 2 with Villa playing a 4-2-3-1 gegenpress, yeah then it's overpowered

I meant it in the context of the game not in reference to real football. Those types of tactics are overpowered. Even when AI uses them.

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Can I ask the moderation please something? You are delete my posting in a minute. But why do you allow user to post lying post about your game? He claims winning Barclays Premier League with Sheffield with a tactic low line and low lines of engagement. I use it with brentford team that is better than sheffield by millions. Use roles for the team and players. I am excited. Now my 3rd save and all the same happening again getting sacked. Here you can see Liverpool scoring for fun against me. Could been 10 goals. Why do you delete my comment in second but dont question the claims made by user?

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As requested, I published my tactic on Steam, it is available in my profile Nully29, it's named Low intensity 5131. I guess I am idiot cause I can't figure out how to link it here.

 

Meanwhile I came back from holiday, played 5 more matches and I went 0-1, 1-0, 0-1, 0-0, 2-1. So after 10 games my record is 6-2-2. The defense does not look as solid, but I still never let in more than 1 a game. I also made minor adjustments. I used to play with Easy tackling OI on ops attackers. However, in my first game I conceded a penalty because of the hard push on ops midfielder, that happened after a wide free kicks. So I made Easy tackling OI on all ops. The second loss happened when we struggled to defend corners. So I switched my training routine to add Defend Corners for every upcoming match. 

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6 minutes ago, nully29 said:

As requested, I published my tactic on Steam, it is available in my profile Nully29, it's named Low intensity 5131. I guess I am idiot cause I can't figure out how to link it here.

 

Meanwhile I came back from holiday, played 5 more matches and I went 0-1, 1-0, 0-1, 0-0, 2-1. So after 10 games my record is 6-2-2. The defense does not look as solid, but I still never let in more than 1 a game. I also made minor adjustments. I used to play with Easy tackling OI on ops attackers. However, in my first game I conceded a penalty because of the hard push on ops midfielder, that happened after a wide free kicks. So I made Easy tackling OI on all ops. The second loss happened when we struggled to defend corners. So I switched my training routine to add Defend Corners for every upcoming match. 

During the first 5 games were the systems you faced different to the second lot of 5 games? I was wondering if there was a pattern for systems that cause you more issues whether it be harder for you to break them down or they find space against your own defence etc.

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Posted (edited)

Here is my second season so far (19 out of 28 games played, lowest payroll by far)

 

 

 

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some team stats

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Edited by nully29
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I just wanted to say that this definitely works, so I just put together in a quick tactic with my FM21 save and I was surprised to see how well it did and I'm sure it would have done better if I put more thought into it or if I built a squad for it.

I've got one of the best team in the league so take this with a grain of sault and I only played 5 games

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Cleon said:

During the first 5 games were the systems you faced different to the second lot of 5 games? I was wondering if there was a pattern for systems that cause you more issues whether it be harder for you to break them down or they find space against your own defence etc.

Systems were generally the same. My ops are usually playing 433, a couple of teams are playing 4231 and dominant Cavalry plays Christmas tree.

The reasons for relative slip in performance seems to be:

 

1. I am not very good at rotating squad. We lost 0-4 to Cavalry because I put my slow 35 years old DCL against one of the quickest AMCR in the league. I figured, low block would make up for the lack of speed... I also have a deep squad that is filled with vets who want to play, so I rotate a lot. I should instead get more youth who would be happy to sit on the bench.

2. I am not very good motivator. We lost 0-3 to Valour because I didn't hold the team accountable after a 0-1 loss in previous game. I said that they were unlucky and they went demotivated because they expected me to tell them off.

 

I also need to improve my man management. Once I told my DCR, that his heading wasn't very good last game (it was 70%). He disagreed. Yet next game he won 100% headers and we won. I am capable of performing such management, but not nearly enough.

In those two games we let in 7 goals. In the rest 17 games we let in 5.

3. I also need to improve my training skills. My style requires a lot of match preparations schedules. And this leads to drop in sharpness. Since there's no U21 teams in Canada (only Cavalry and Edmonton have one), I can't put bench warmers to reserves to stay sharp. I am scheduling friendlies when breaks are longer than 7 days, but generally I have yet to find a way to keep the squad sharp, familiar and prepared for the next match. I particularly struggle witg short breaks between games when I can't put any preparation schedules in between.

 

Edited by nully29
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46 minutes ago, BruceyBall said:

I've had this thread linked in a different forum and I'm shocked what's going on here. The entire thread from the starting post to the long post by "Cleon" is one big strawman argument against people like me who rightfully believe that playing low lines and no pressing in fm or in real football is a bad strategy. When you talk about park the bus football that is not getting results nobody ever meant applying low lines and then applying hold shape and short passing and multiple other instructions aiming to keep the ball as much as possible reducing the time you get pumped in your own box as much as possible. People who believe that has debunked the work that has been done for years are extremely naive. Or if you think that is a correct representation of football played by someone like the great Steve Bruce you probably don't watch real football? Then it's fair enough. But the arrogance these people are showing towards other forum users who are merely stating the truth is appalling and I was very surprised reading some of the posts in this thread. Never seen such on any FM-forum or discord I've been in.

How is that keeping the ball and not doing anything with it when in my own games that I played that way I had more shots than the opposition and we are actually scoring. You don't score goals by passing the ball around at the back

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Friendly, but final reminder to all people in thread that tactics and theories can be challenged without resorting to antagonize someone else.

 

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1 hour ago, BruceyBall said:

I've had this thread linked in a different forum and I'm shocked what's going on here. The entire thread from the starting post to the long post by "Cleon" is one big strawman argument against people like me who rightfully believe that playing low lines and no pressing in fm or in real football is a bad strategy. When you talk about park the bus football that is not getting results nobody ever meant applying low lines and then applying hold shape and short passing and multiple other instructions aiming to keep the ball as much as possible reducing the time you get pumped in your own box as much as possible. People who believe that has debunked the work that has been done for years are extremely naive. Or if you think that is a correct representation of football played by someone like the great Steve Bruce you probably don't watch real football? Then it's fair enough. But the arrogance these people are showing towards other forum users who are merely stating the truth is appalling and I was very surprised reading some of the posts in this thread. Never seen such on any FM-forum or discord I've been in.

The point of the thread is to celebrate the fact that Match Engine allows for different ways to play winning football. There are many complains across the web, that high press is allegedly the only viable approach in FM. Those complains unfairly paint FM in bad lights. It IS possible to win with low block and no intensity. Whether it's good idea is another debate altogether. You are free to play whatever style you wish. The very point is that you don't really have to play a certain style to be successful.

 

Edited by nully29
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vor 18 Minuten schrieb DarJ:

How is that keeping the ball and not doing anything with it when in my own games that I played that way I had more shots than the opposition and we are actually scoring. You don't score goals by passing the ball around at the back

You have shown to have by far the lowest xG in the league. What is the xGA? This screenshot is not there. Because something works in a weak league with handpicked players is no substantial evidence to go on some sort of redemption arc in my opinion no matter what. I know somebody who won the polish league with the worst team in the league first season on Fm21 with low line of engagement. The same tactic did nothing in the top 5 leagues.

You unfortunately are missing my point. You play a possession system with the ball and only when you lose it you stand in your own box. Is that how typical low block managers play? No they typically have the lowest pass number in the entire league. "Proofing" that tactics as you or the other user posted work does not disprove what anybody ever really theorized so I was very surprised with the attitude shown towards others when reading it.

Edited by BruceyBall
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I do believe that you can play a low block and do well. You can create systems that have a decent amount of possession too. What's a low block?

The defensive line influences how high your backline will be from goal, which along with the LOE creates a vertical zone of compression. Since the LOE is the main trigger to begin the pressing for strikers, depending on the size of your compression area this in turn affects how your players close down within the zone.

Now I am not sure if people were watching my twitch stream two tuesday's ago, but I intentionally played low block systems. In a low block I like to play with less pressing, this in turn encourages my players to press at appropriate times.  During the draft, I tried two formations. The first formations shape wasn't particularly suited to a low block, but the second was brilliant. We went from bottom of the league to finishing second playing a low block against people playing high intensity pressing systems with better players.

The thing about low blocks is that you cant use average players. I used players who could deal with crosses and used opp instructions to funnel play.  The good thing about FM22, is that you need the right players to make a tactical system work and low blocks are viable on FM,  They are more challenging to use, because you need to be prepared to defend, get mentored by Allardyce and get a stiff drink,

So I do hope that people try and respect everyone's opinion, please stop abusing each other with uncalled for remarks.  That is not what public forums like this are for and behavior like that cannot be tolerated.

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11 minutes ago, BruceyBall said:

You unfortunately are missing my point

Maybe but you are missing the point as well because teams that do play the way you are describing IRL never win leagues, they are always fighting again relegation

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7 minutes ago, BruceyBall said:

You unfortunately are missing my point. You play a possession system with the ball and only when you lose it you stand in your own box. Is that how typical low block managers play?

Yes it is. It's park the bus football. Low block with slow attack and wasting time. 

 

8 minutes ago, BruceyBall said:

No they typically have the lowest pass number in the entire league.

This is Catenaccio-like football. Low block with fast counters with 2-3 passes.

 

10 minutes ago, BruceyBall said:

 

 

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb Rashidi:

I do believe that you can play a low block and do well. You can create systems that have a decent amount of possession too. What's a low block?

The defensive line influences how high your backline will be from goal, which along with the LOE creates a vertical zone of compression. Since the LOE is the main trigger to begin the pressing for strikers, depending on the size of your compression area this in turn affects how your players close down within the zone.

Now I am not sure if people were watching my twitch stream two tuesday's ago, but I intentionally played low block systems. In a low block I like to play with less pressing, this in turn encourages my players to press at appropriate times.  During the draft, I tried two formations. The first formations shape wasn't particularly suited to a low block, but the second was brilliant. We went from bottom of the league to finishing second playing a low block against people playing high intensity pressing systems with better players.

The thing about low blocks is that you cant use average players. I used players who could deal with crosses and used opp instructions to funnel play.  The good thing about FM22, is that you need the right players to make a tactical system work and low blocks are viable on FM,  They are more challenging to use, because you need to be prepared to defend, get mentored by Allardyce and get a stiff drink,

So I do hope that people try and respect everyone's opinion, please stop abusing each other with uncalled for remarks.  That is not what public forums like this are for and behavior like that cannot be tolerated.

Why don't you show the shape that was "brilliant" then instead of writing abstract texts about it?

With the fourth paragraph you admit the theories set up by people like me are correct. Who does play low block in real football? Teams with the worst players in the league. Below average.

I don't want to get into this since I've said and truly mean to a mod on PM I want to talk tactics. But the motivation why I wanted to talk about it is the arrogance shown by the user cleon towards other people with different opinions suggesting they lack understanding of the game, which was sickening to me. I'm unsure why you are directing this at me?

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