Player Value and Value to Club

[toffee71]

This is related to my last post in Beta feedback thread.

I will start with an example from previous FM and realife.

Wilf Zaha is more real life than FM, but few years ago there were "rumours" regarding £80m+ transfer, and is a great example of what I'm trying to understand better, I get that to Palace he was worth that as he was the clubs "star player" but in the actual market at the time would have been around £40m, I know his value to Palace is a lot more than his actual value.

Now from FM21 Dwight McNeill, I was interested scouted him watched him myself few times Burnley knew I was interested. Now my guess was it would be expensive but was hoping for £40m-50m thinking good money for Burnley that, but they wanted £91m, my DoF made the offer so obviously he didin't have an issue with the price, but I did so I cancelled it. Don't have a problem with Burnleys stance or valuation as I understand that to Burnley F.C he is worth that to them, I got JWP for £36m instead.

I understand both of the above examples.

Now for my problem, I have 1 LB (Lucas Digne, good solid player) no backup LB (am retraining JJK to cover). So from mine and the clubs point of view he is actually priceless until I get some cover in which I'm struggling to do as have basically no transfer budget. I can just about understand Man City offering £30m total, just about his value though little lowball, rejected that so I put a £60m asking price  especially as not listed and I don't want to sell (but mid table Newcastle making lower offers and totalling 4 different players with lowball offers), I even tried a cheeky negotiation by lowering their offer to £20m+Zinchenko, which I don't think is unreasonable, they want my only LB so why not try to get one included in the deal, I know it was unlikely but it was the only way I could even entertain the offer.

In this situation his value to the club is a lot more than £60m as we have no real alternatives and even if we can get someone else in we have to bed them in,

So why can't the AI understand that at this moment in time this player is worth more in value to my club (just as it knows that Dwight McNeill is worth more to Burnley) and at least be reasonable to deal with or accept my demands or accept that NO means NO.

[fc.cadoni]

Player value has been replaced with transfer value which is not the same as previous versions from what I understand. You have to ask agent or more scouting to find the actual cost of the player.

[toffee71]

17 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said:

Player value has been replaced with transfer value which is not the same as previous versions from what I understand. You have to ask agent or more scouting to find the actual cost of the player.

I'm not buying, I'm trying not to sell, think you may have misread/misunderstood my post.

[fc.cadoni]

5 minutes ago, toffee71 said:

I'm not buying, I'm trying not to sell, think you may have misread/misunderstood my post.

Your fault was to put "asking price". That means/translate to AI = Ok, he/she place it (asking for) for 60m - we will find the solution to bring him to our club, because he made a fault to put an asking price a lot higher that transfer value which gonna soon or later player will be pissed of and want a move to our higher rep club. We don't care if it's only your LB.

I hope that makes more sense what I have wrote above. :-) 

[dresden]

You're free to ask for whatever price you want, the other club is free to bid however low or high they want. You asked for 60, they clearly have no intention and just want to lowball and maybe unsettle the player. It's hard to see what the issue is.

 

[toffee71]

5 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said:

Your fault was to put "asking price". That means/translate to AI = Ok, he/she place it (asking for) for 60m - we will find the solution to bring him to our club, because he made a fault to put an asking price a lot higher that transfer value which gonna soon or later player will be pissed of and want a move to our higher rep club. We don't care if it's only your LB.

I hope that makes more sense what I have wrote above. :-) 

I think it does make sense (if its your second language). I think I understand that me putting asking price was an issue, but that only happened after I had rejected several offers and had player chat he wasn't happy with my asking price but as he said he's a professional and accepted it though wasn't entirely happy, so putting an asking price was forced on me and I wanted to go higher but wanted to be within the realms possibility and have player accept my value, and it not just Man City it's other clubs too.

But you've still missed the point I'm struggling to understand why the AI won't get that there is only an asking price reluctunctly, just as when I bid for a "star player" from smaller team and the AI says this is the price, I either accept it and pay up or reject and move on to the next target, the AI doesn't accept no and doesn't move on, before deadline day I had already rejected 11 bids for this player 7 from City 3 from Newcastle and 1 from Dortmund none of the offers over £30m and both City and Newcatle repeated identical offers and then lower offers, it is an illogical way to try to do business and the opposite of how the AI behaves when I am buying, I don't have an issue with the AI when I'm buying if I don't like the deal I walk away, I may return in the next transfer window but not the next day with the same or worse offer.

[toffee71]

22 minutes ago, dresden said:

You're free to ask for whatever price you want, the other club is free to bid however low or high they want. You asked for 60, they clearly have no intention and just want to lowball and maybe unsettle the player. It's hard to see what the issue is.

 

Again you've either misread or misunderstood my original post, it must be how I've worded it (sorry), the money side is totally irrelevant I can ask what I like just as the AI can ask what it likes, it's the fact that that the AI won't move on to it's next target, after rejection, that it returns the next day with the same or worse offer and again and again, it's the AI logic I'm trying to have a better understanding of, to me it makes no sense at all, is it designed this way or have I stumbled upon an issue?

I apologise if I've not been clear, but tomorrow I'll reload the save before the transfer window and run it through again making notes of offers all through the window including deadline day and try to explain better about the illogical approach from the AI.

[Mars_Blackmon]

AI doesn't think he's worth what you're asking. They aren't going to offer you more money  because you don't have the depth. its up to you to not accept the offer. Same as you cancel the offer you DOF presented for McNeil.

[toffee71]

1 minute ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

AI doesn't think he's worth what you're asking. They aren't going to offer you more money  because you don't have the depth. its up to you to not accept the offer. Same as you cancel the offer you DOF presented for McNeil.

That's all fair enough but "how many times" realistically should the AI have to be told this is the price like it or lump it, and that is what I am trying to understand, the AI logic, to me the logic is:

a) he wants that much, b) we don't think he's worth that, c) will try lowball feeler offer, see that rejected, go back with same/worse offer in less than 24 hours"

It makes absolutely no sense and that is why I'm trying to understand the AI logic. Steps a,b,c make perfect sense but the bit in bold defies all logic and common sense

[Mars_Blackmon]

8 minutes ago, toffee71 said:

That's all fair enough but "how many times" realistically should the AI have to be told this is the price like it or lump it, and that is what I am trying to understand, the AI logic, to me the logic is:

a) he wants that much, b) we don't think he's worth that, c) will try lowball feeler offer, see that rejected, go back with same/worse offer in less than 24 hours"

It makes absolutely no sense and that is why I'm trying to understand the AI logic. Steps a,b,c make perfect sense but the bit in bold defies all logic and common sense

that is how they unsettle your players. Does he want to move?

[Freakiie]

The AI will, after a while, move on to their next target. Now, if you're close to deadline day and the AI hasn't found a "better" target yet, they will spam you with offers, as they still consider your player their best bet.

Yes, this gets horribly awkward when they already offered what they considered their max offer for said player and just come back with the same offer (auto reject offers below asking price is your friend there!) and I'm not sure why SI haven't looked into this properly. Considering that they will increase their offers (if they can afford to), they AI clearly has some sort of memory off what they offered previously, so why that is not used to prevent the AI from spamming you with the same offer over and over I have no idea.

[toffee71]

11 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

that is how they unsettle your players. Does he want to move?

He didn't but has already refused new contract because of interest  so with 18months left in my mind if I don't qualify for CL can sort it in the summer and if I do qualify for CL I may be able to persuade him to stay.

11 hours ago, Freakiie said:

The AI will, after a while, move on to their next target. Now, if you're close to deadline day and the AI hasn't found a "better" target yet, they will spam you with offers, as they still consider your player their best bet.

Yes, this gets horribly awkward when they already offered what they considered their max offer for said player and just come back with the same offer (auto reject offers below asking price is your friend there!) and I'm not sure why SI haven't looked into this properly. Considering that they will increase their offers (if they can afford to), they AI clearly has some sort of memory off what they offered previously, so why that is not used to prevent the AI from spamming you with the same offer over and over I have no idea.

Thank you @Freakiie, you have put it far better than I have, it's the logic behind the bidding process, which when the roles are reversed I find the AI more logical and willing to negotiate.

Will try using auto reject even though I don't like any of the "auto" buttons.

I'm not complaining about the bids and the unsettling element, but, the follow up bids are where the issue lies and my brain can't stop trying to understand the (il)logic.

Am going to load up before Jan window and catalogue all bids that happen, will return later.

[Mars_Blackmon]

6 hours ago, toffee71 said:

He didn't but has already refused new contract because of interest  so with 18months left in my mind if I don't qualify for CL can sort it in the summer and if I do qualify for CL I may be able to persuade him to stay.

Thank you @Freakiie, you have put it far better than I have, it's the logic behind the bidding process, which when the roles are reversed I find the AI more logical and willing to negotiate.

Will try using auto reject even though I don't like any of the "auto" buttons.

I'm not complaining about the bids and the unsettling element, but, the follow up bids are where the issue lies and my brain can't stop trying to understand the (il)logic.

Am going to load up before Jan window and catalogue all bids that happen, will return later.

So it sound like they successfully unsettled your player. You can do the same to the AI. But yea, you can auto reject.

[Reflection86]

20 hours ago, toffee71 said:

This is related to my last post in Beta feedback thread.

I will start with an example from previous FM and realife.

Wilf Zaha is more real life than FM, but few years ago there were "rumours" regarding £80m+ transfer, and is a great example of what I'm trying to understand better, I get that to Palace he was worth that as he was the clubs "star player" but in the actual market at the time would have been around £40m, I know his value to Palace is a lot more than his actual value.

Now from FM21 Dwight McNeill, I was interested scouted him watched him myself few times Burnley knew I was interested. Now my guess was it would be expensive but was hoping for £40m-50m thinking good money for Burnley that, but they wanted £91m, my DoF made the offer so obviously he didin't have an issue with the price, but I did so I cancelled it. Don't have a problem with Burnleys stance or valuation as I understand that to Burnley F.C he is worth that to them, I got JWP for £36m instead.

I understand both of the above examples.

Now for my problem, I have 1 LB (Lucas Digne, good solid player) no backup LB (am retraining JJK to cover). So from mine and the clubs point of view he is actually priceless until I get some cover in which I'm struggling to do as have basically no transfer budget. I can just about understand Man City offering £30m total, just about his value though little lowball, rejected that so I put a £60m asking price  especially as not listed and I don't want to sell (but mid table Newcastle making lower offers and totalling 4 different players with lowball offers), I even tried a cheeky negotiation by lowering their offer to £20m+Zinchenko, which I don't think is unreasonable, they want my only LB so why not try to get one included in the deal, I know it was unlikely but it was the only way I could even entertain the offer.

In this situation his value to the club is a lot more than £60m as we have no real alternatives and even if we can get someone else in we have to bed them in,

So why can't the AI understand that at this moment in time this player is worth more in value to my club (just as it knows that Dwight McNeill is worth more to Burnley) and at least be reasonable to deal with or accept my demands or accept that NO means NO.

I get bids like this constantly for my UNLISTED best players. City just completely ignoring his in game value and bidding a 3rd of what my best player is worth.

[xiuxiuejar]

Gotta say this irks me. If they bid just once and we had the option of a sarcastic message telling them to pay his worth - then I'd be happier. But when they continually come back with the same silly offers, it really grates. Getting 26 million bids for my most valuable 100m+ player - it's laughable.

[JordanMilly]

37 minutes ago, Reflection86 said:

I get bids like this constantly for my UNLISTED best players. City just completely ignoring his in game value and bidding a 3rd of what my best player is worth.

 

Spoiler

 

I mean:

1) They're not bidding a third of what the player is worth - they're bidding a third of what he's worth now, and 40% of whatever profit they make off him, which could be substantially more than the remaining £25m. They're essentially doing exactly what a lot of us players do, trying to structure the transfer to reduce initial outgoings. It's a smart way of doing things, we just don't like it because we don't get the money upfront. Doesn't make it a bug though.

2) It'll also act to unsettle the player, given the size of the club, which may result in you being forced into selling him for cheaper than you'd otherwise want.

So I honestly don't see an issue with that transfer. It's just not an offer you like.

[Reflection86]

5 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

I mean:

1) They're not bidding a third of what the player is worth - they're bidding a third of what he's worth now, and 40% of whatever profit they make off him, which could be substantially more than the remaining £25m. They're essentially doing exactly what a lot of us players do, trying to structure the transfer to reduce initial outgoings. It's a smart way of doing things, we just don't like it because we don't get the money upfront. Doesn't make it a bug though.

2) It'll also act to unsettle the player, given the size of the club, which may result in you being forced into selling him for cheaper than you'd otherwise want.

So I honestly don't see an issue with that transfer. It's just not an offer you like.

Let me give you some context.

I am the reigning German champions. Gavi is my star player. His in game value is £40-46m. If you think Man City bidding £14m is normal in this situation, thats your opinion, but I highly disagree. Elite clubs wouldnt do that in real life. Would City go in with a £25m bid for Haaland in real life (around a 3rd of his rumoured release clause of £75m)? 

Gavi has a £40m release clause, it makes no sense for them to not just activate it, rather than constantly bidding a 3rd of his value. £40m is a bargain for the German Champions best player. 

[xiuxiuejar]

1 hour ago, Reflection86 said:

Let me give you some context.

I am the reigning German champions. Gavi is my star player. His in game value is £40-46m. If you think Man City bidding £14m is normal in this situation, thats your opinion, but I highly disagree. Elite clubs wouldnt do that in real life. Would City go in with a £25m bid for Haaland in real life (around a 3rd of his rumoured release clause of £75m)? 

Gavi has a £40m release clause, it makes no sense for them to not just activate it, rather than constantly bidding a 3rd of his value. £40m is a bargain for the German Champions best player. 

I got the same. Chelsea had just won the league, Pulisic was player of the year and valued at 120m+ and City offered me 26m and Madrid 32m. He was not listed and he was happy to stay at the club. I don't get it,

[fc.cadoni]

2 hours ago, Reflection86 said:

Let me give you some context.

I am the reigning German champions. Gavi is my star player. His in game value is £40-46m. If you think Man City bidding £14m is normal in this situation, thats your opinion, but I highly disagree. Elite clubs wouldnt do that in real life. Would City go in with a £25m bid for Haaland in real life (around a 3rd of his rumoured release clause of £75m)? 

Gavi has a £40m release clause, it makes no sense for them to not just activate it, rather than constantly bidding a 3rd of his value. £40m is a bargain for the German Champions best player. 

Why to activate it when has the weapon to buy it cheaper or for free? Please read here an excellent article from Guido.

I am always copying AI what is doing to me; for my own financial goodness. Sometimes works, sometimes not. 

[treble_yell_:-)]

On 30/10/2021 at 21:12, fc.cadoni said:

Player value has been replaced with transfer value which is not the same as previous versions from what I understand. You have to ask agent or more scouting to find the actual cost of the player.

No matter how much you scout, the price the agent tells you is exactly the same as the displayed value range.

Speaking to agents doesn't do anything, at all. (and scouting to 100% doesn't narrow the range either)

[fc.cadoni]

1 minute ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

No matter how much you scout, the price the agent tells you is exactly the same as the displayed value range.

Speaking to agents doesn't do anything, at all. (and scouting to 100% doesn't narrow the range either)

In that case, then that's the price. You have to play dirty games against AI in transfers; like AI do to you. 

[Mars_Blackmon]

20 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

No matter how much you scout, the price the agent tells you is exactly the same as the displayed value range.

Speaking to agents doesn't do anything, at all. (and scouting to 100% doesn't narrow the range either)

Im reading this as I am currently scouting for new players and this just simply isn't true at all. Maybe that was the case for a specific player you were asking about. But values can become outdated. Asking a agent will give you the correct range.

 

I literally just asked a agent about a player and his value went from 0-30 to 0-26