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_Ben_
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@_Ben_ This is great stuff!

 

I always train my players in P/R/D like @Ausie , but I don't pay as much attention to spread of attributes covered by training blocks. Maybe I should.

I generally let the Assman create the General Training Schedules and then modify with Training blocks I think the team needs work in.

I will be following with interest because it might help in my next career update!

 

 

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4 hours ago, _Ben_ said:

Going back to what I said earlier. I believe that the P/R/D in training is just the attribute development time and tactical familiarity comes from playing games in that position and role. Therefore, I choose P/R/D to develop positional knowledge or widespread attribute knowledge in my players and then focus in on just additional focuses when the needs and weaknesses are less pronounced.

This is something that I've thought about a lot recently and I've come to a different conclusion than you. These are just my thoughts and opinions so I'm happy to be proven wrong or to take on board another point of view.

In your example for Attacking Shadow Play, and Team Tactics, the P/R/D impact comes under 'Tactical Familiarity'. I've taken this to mean that this only impacts an individual players tactical familiarity bar, which you see on the tactics page for each individual player in your 11, where P/R/D has it's own category (alongside mentality, passing style, etc). Therefore, I think that on sessions like these, the actual attributes for P/R/D are not being trained, just the familiarity to play that role in the system.

My understanding is that the P/R/D which is set on the training screen for players is only worked on where there is 'individual roles' listed in the 'attributes' section of a sessions impact, i.e. the Match Practice session, or the secondary or tertiary foci of any of the Goalkeeping sessions. Otherwise what would be the need in having P/R/D appear 'tactical familiarity' in some, and individual roles in 'attributes' in others on the session card, if it worked on those attributes either way.

Like I say I've had some difficulty understanding how this works in the past so if anyone has any input on this it would be gratefully received.

Edited by brookie1402
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9 hours ago, brookie1402 said:

My understanding is that the P/R/D which is set on the training screen for players is only worked on where there is 'individual roles' listed in the 'attributes' section of a sessions impact

That's a really interest point, and one I'd overlooked. From looking around though, the 'Individual roles' barely appears:

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I've got it there for the Attacking Unit in Defending Aerial, the defenders in Chance Conversion and the keepers in Outfield

From my own perspective, these are not schedules I work on that much over the week (certainly no more than two or three of these in total and just once a week) and the focus on them is very small, yet I see pretty good attribute development. 

---

I guess the best way to test this is to take a left back, for example, and retrain him as a striker, or at least somewhere he's completely unfamiliar with and test two things:

  • Does P/R/D improve quicker when he is training as a P(a) for example as well as playing there?
  • Do the attributes rise quicker when training as a P(a) and playing there?

I'd suggest that definitely the last one is true as just playing him there doesn't feel like he'd spend any training time trying to get better at the attributes he needs to play as a striker. I do find that the whole training system is a bit of a means to an end and not really a realistic way of training - you wouldn't have your star striker turning up saying to everyone else: "I'm really trying to play as a Complete Forward today lads" whilst another is like: "Ok, but I'm just focusing on my defensive positioning."

I think that a balanced approach using all of the above ideas that we've had, differentiating between each player who, as we know, is pretty much unique in how they'll develop, play and react to things is the best way!

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October 2030

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What a month! We're through twenty games now at Ural and, again, I couldn't be happier with how we've started. Whilst we're expected to go back up, it's the manner in which we are winning and playing that is impressing me the most.

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Our first match of October saw a dominating performance against local rivals Amkar where a strong first half display with a South America feel to the goals put us in control. Coming off the bench, Petrenko buried a third to emphasise our class. The Volgar game was a little less convincing but we did enough, particularly in the second half, to warrant a win. Petrenko arrived late on again and scored late on again - proving that there is certainly some big potential there for this lad. Two set pieces made up our win over Neftekhimik in an unusually drab performance for us, albeit from a heavily rotated side. Both headers coming from corners allowed Nicolas de la Cruz to rate well but nobody else really put in the shift that I wanted from them. However - and I've mentioned this before: the sign of a champion is to win when you're not at your best! A really strong win against another relegated side in Baltika emphasised our class before we tore Chaika apart - with three goals, all from low crosses, coming in the first half. We ended the league month with the biggest win of my managerial career, running absolute riot against the second team of Lokomotiv, who played over half an hour with just nine men.

---

Next up to analyse in my playing style is my DM, Alexey Rudenko.

He's a different kettle of fish to Antonio as he's playing really well - six goal contributions in twelve games from a Half Back is really good going. However, there's just something about how he's playing that isn't quite sitting right for me. It's the role, not the player and you can see that better from the graphic below:

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He sits, as he should, between the two centre backs, almost making a back three at times and his progressive passing (right) is ok - it joins defence and midfield but I just feel that I want more. You can see the huge gap in the middle of the park because of the fact I play a Mez(a) and a Mez(s) there and I think this role needs to fill the gap, but also be defensively secure as the two inverted wingbacks, by nature, can be prone to being caught out of position. I also don't want to lose the split of the centre backs, as that, too, given that they are both BPD(d), allows them to be away from an area of potential pressure (opponent forward) and to burst forward.

My thoughts are backed up when comparing him to the other defensive midfielders in this league:

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He's obviously working really well from goals scored, but that is because he's scored a couple of screamers and then one from a corner but you'll see his passing numbers are high. The above pitch graphic shows only his progressive passes - this is about 16 in that game - around 25% of his total pass numbers. He also hasn't once broken out of defence and completed a dribble. We haven't defended much but he's 50-odd interceptions behind my own two centre backs this season and only in the 26th percentile in the league, which tells me that he's a bit too static, too.

Now, I know I cannot have eleven attacking men and insist on him remaining on a Defence duty, but I do feel that I want just a little bit more here. There is our own defensive performance to think about but also the demands of the board, who still insist on a defensively strong team – although that is in synergy with my own ideology of a strong, resilient backline.

Therefore, I think I'm left with two options:

DM(d):

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I'm not sold on the 'keep hold of the ball' bit here but the 'closing down' and 'supporting creative players' are useful to our transitional play. I can also keep him taking more risks and passing the ball longer as I look to make sure he's nice and direct in possession.

A(d):

1611d7fbb66606d46f1ddef675904a4c.png

We lose the 'take more risks' option and he seems a safer option but I do like the 'interception moves' and 'more creative teammates' (as that'll directly imply my WP(s) on the left hand side of midfield. I am less keen on the 'doesn't venture too far from position' though.

I do not want to go down the role of a DLP(d) because that will slow the play down and I am already using a playmaker on the left flank. The only other option is a BWM(d), but I'm less positive about that due to the really high level of pressing it entails, pulling him out of the three man defence shape he makes. I am, however, fine with the attacking shape morphing from a 3-2-4-1 to a 2-3-4-1, knowing that, against certain stronger opposition, I can bring it back.

Rather than screenshotting all the position stuff, which is a lot less effective to look at than crossing situations, here is the data collated over the month as well as some commentary:

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Game 1 vs Amkar. 4-4-2. Strong side. Playing as a DM(d)

  • 61 passes complete:
  • 10 gained possession with 2 in opponent half.
  • 4 interceptions with 1 in opponent half.

What is of interest here is how this role changes how my IWB(s) operate. I know it's only one game, but their average position sees them less tucked in and less offensive, when compared to that first image. In my next game against stronger opponents, I'll revert to the A(d) role to see if that allows the full backs some more freedom. Going forward, it could be something that traits could improve - if one/both of the IWB(s) Get Forward Whenever Possible or similar, that may offset that, too.

Game 2 vs Volgar. 5-3-2 (no AM).  Weaker side. Playing as DM(d)

  • Withdrawn after an hour but 39% of passes were progressive with seven link ups to the striker. Average positions see him much further upfield, pushing the striker on, too. I quite like that overall shape.

Game 3 vs Neftekhimik. 4-3-3. Weaker side. Playing as DM(d)

  • 56 passes but only 9 progressive, although 7 in opposition half.
  • No connecting passes to striker at all.

Clear to see that he's going to have some bad games. He rated 7.1 but a headed goal from a corner was likely the reason for this.

Game 4 vs Balikta. 4-2-3-1. Stronger side. Playing as DM(d)

  • 18 of 68 passes progressive.
  • 53 of 68 passes short.
  • 37 of 53 short passes completed in defensive half.

It would appear, that, when faced with a player in the AMC role, his passing is much safer. I'd expect this due to pressing but I didn't think it'd limit his forward play anywhere near as much. I purposely didn't chose to use him as an A(d) as I wanted to see how this panned out. Certainly something to think about. His average position, though, was pretty much perfect - right in the hole between the lines, although it has pushed the ST considerably further forward though.

Game 5 vs Chaika. 5-3-2 AM. Weaker side. Hasan Tsutsulaev playing as DM(d)

Interestingly, he played quite differently as I rotated to keep my first team press. Just 49 completed passes with only seven progressive. Whilst this analysis is about getting the best from Rudenko, I do need to consider that he does personalise the role with his traits and I don't, as expected, have a like-for-like replacement, so may need to consider the position as a 'whole.' I also didn't select him for the final game so ended my analysis there.

Here is the comparison between the roles:

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It's really interesting that I've focused, through the in-game stats, on his progressive passing, something which I feel has improved but isn't measured by these records. It's interesting that he's doing more of most things as a HB(d) - even shooting and assisting, which is unexpected. There are two statistics that I'm interested in here though - and both are 'won' by the DM(d). Assists are not down to him as that depends on the man on the end - but I like the number of CCC that he's created and I am also much happier with the interceptions that he's making, as that's a big part of how we play. 

There is a thought that I'm clearly looking at this with a bias as I've decided to make the change away from the HB(d) to the DM(d) and I also have the added bit that I am watching the games but I must actually go against the statistics here and say that I feel Rudenko has improved by playing as a DM(d). Very much an eye-test over a number-test if you ask me!

 

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41 minutes ago, _Ben_ said:

I do not want to go down the role of a DLP(d) because that will slow the play down and I am already using a playmaker on the left flank.

Love the analysis you have done on the Defensive Midfield role. I was curious with the comment you made on the DLP(d), why do you think he would slow the play down? Is it because you play at a high tempo and playmaker will invariable hold n to the ball a bit more before choosing his passing move?

I play a narrow 4-1-2-1-2 Vertical Tiki Taka and have both a DLP(d) and an AP(s), with a Mezzala(S - A when pushing for a goal) and a Carrilero in between them. I feel it works OK because I do play a very short passing and patient game, aiming to dominate possession - and he tends to play short passes but every now and then pops up with something that helps open a gap that we can exploit. I actually just changed the role to an Anchor Man for tougher games away from home and found that it helped in retaining possession by not playing those riskier passes. Whilst that worked well in my style of play I do get a feeling that the Anchor Man will not give you what you are looking for, so the DM(d) does seem more appropriate from a theoretical perspective.

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4 minutes ago, corinthiano said:

Love the analysis you have done on the Defensive Midfield role. I was curious with the comment you made on the DLP(d), why do you think he would slow the play down? Is it because you play at a high tempo and playmaker will invariable hold n to the ball a bit more before choosing his passing move?

I play a narrow 4-1-2-1-2 Vertical Tiki Taka and have both a DLP(d) and an AP(s), with a Mezzala(S - A when pushing for a goal) and a Carrilero in between them. I feel it works OK because I do play a very short passing and patient game, aiming to dominate possession - and he tends to play short passes but every now and then pops up with something that helps open a gap that we can exploit. I actually just changed the role to an Anchor Man for tougher games away from home and found that it helped in retaining possession by not playing those riskier passes. Whilst that worked well in my style of play I do get a feeling that the Anchor Man will not give you what you are looking for, so the DM(d) does seem more appropriate from a theoretical perspective.

Yes, absolutely!

We're a team who like to play vertically and, with one playmaker already playing - I don't want to have to go through two players to get the ball forward. I think it works for your style as you're narrower, so pass shorter and want to play that passing game. I just want to get the ball forward and nail those lightning fast transitions.

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I like the analysis of the DM role, but have you thought about "A Flat 3 " in Midfield. I have used in the past in Liverpool 4-3-3 recreations with a DLP-S or DLP-D between the two Mezzala's.

A DLP is a holding role it is just that it is willing at times to get to the edge of the box to fire in Long Range Shots or Killer passes to Strikers.

You would need a player with good Decisions, Stamina and Pace to play the role.

I was/am surprised at how defensive a DLP-S in the MC Strata can be. 

The Role also works great with a 4-2-3-1 Wide.

PS: That backheel goal was beautiful!

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19 hours ago, Hootieleece said:

I like the analysis of the DM role, but have you thought about "A Flat 3 " in Midfield. I have used in the past in Liverpool 4-3-3 recreations with a DLP-S or DLP-D between the two Mezzala's.

A DLP is a holding role it is just that it is willing at times to get to the edge of the box to fire in Long Range Shots or Killer passes to Strikers.

I just don't want that type of player, if I'm honest. I need this role to:

  • Sit between the IWB(s) and help transition the play between defence and midfielder
  • Not be a ball magnet so that I can play out, and vertically, quickly.
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You should check out @04texag positional play thread in the tactics forum, while he's not trying to play in the same way as you I think you both want the same out of the DM. He has experimented quite a bit with what I think you're looking for. I would personally go for the Anchorman and maybe experiment with player traits.

Edited by RogerC
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8 hours ago, RogerC said:

You should check out @04texag positional play thread in the tactics forum, while he's not trying to play in the same way as you I think you both want the same out of the DM. He has experimented quite a bit with what I think you're looking for. I would personally go for the Anchorman and maybe experiment with player traits.

I'll have a read. I do think traits will play the deciding factor here, which means I need to dig deeper into the recruitment and development area!

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(Early) November 2030

As we've passed the 20 game mark, I feel that it'd be a good time to have a look at how we've been working, tactically, as a whole team, rather than just the individual roles. Given our standing, this is, probably, more of a celebration than a deep dive, but I'm happy for that to be the case! Here is the goals for and goals against analysis. 

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We're clearly very dominant and there are some really positive signs here. The most efficient way to score, in my eyes, is through a placed shot, although it does require the highest level of composure and skill to pull off, otherwise it'd be easy for the keeper to save. Likewise, a good amount of headers show that we are winning duels and scoring from crosses. There is no real pattern to when we score goals, which is fine, as long as we continue to score as consistently as we have so far.

I'm also happy with the conceded goal column, as it works out as just a goal every 0.25 games and, to be fair, a lot of the positions that the goals have come from are unstoppable. Similarly to scoring, we don't really have a time that we concede but I am really happy that there are no goals coming in the minutes before the end of the halves as we are showing that we have the fitness to finish each period strongly.

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The striking charts are dominated by Ezequiel Ponce, who is running riot and scoring at will. There has also been a solid amount of goals coming from elsewhere in the team, and, also importantly, not following a similar pattern - e.g. all from corners.

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At the other end, both keepers are saving more than they are expected to and have kept a sublime number of clean sheets. You can see, given the number of saves that Volodin has been able to hold, that we are restricting the opposition to shots that aren't challenging us, normally because they are from some way out.

The assist data provides some interesting reading, too...

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I feel that this certainly vindicates my work on crossing patterns and Antonio, who's zone is the most productive of all. We're doing well from dead balls, scoring seven from them in total, justifying the regular practice we put in. They're still open to be tinkered with but having a regular taker, in Nicolas de la Cruz, has also helped here. Elsewhere, there is a good spread of goal types coming from different parts of the pitch, showing that we're dangerous everywhere!

As with the goals conceded (one is a penalty so records no assist), there is little to write home about here bar a couple of mistakes, probably down to complacency and being caught on the counter, given where the passes originate from. I'm happy with that given we do play on the front foot and are susceptible to a long ball over the top, which is why I favour fast, clever players who can position themselves well.

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There is, like the shooting stats, a real range of players in here. I'm impressed that we're assisting from every position (minus CB) and the majority of the players have a good pass : assist ratio, using the ball really well. De la Cruz is the set piece taker so he's automatically going to have an advantage but the work with the W(a) has impacted Antonio and Sedov, who was his replacement for a short period of time. 

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These are the three players who have allowed goals due to their mistakes. Now, a lot of the time, mistakes will come from poor positioning or a misplaced tackle. Tsutsaleav is really poor in the tackle and his Tackle completion % backs that up. I remember the game and he just bottled a 50/50, allowing a free run on goal. Usov, a new-ish signing, has taken a little bit of time to develop that tactical familiarity that is needed whereas Kalugin, an emergency backup, was way off the pace and lacking a lot of match fitness when he was clumsy in giving the ball away in defence.

Not excusing any of these mistakes - just understanding and analysing why they happened.

---

I've really really enjoyed the start here and I'm delighted with the squad that we've got, even though it was virtually decimated in the summer. I hope for a similar second half of the season and, given how strong we've been, envisage that next year, I'll be attacking the top flight of Russian football.

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41 goals from 35 assists in 20 games shows a fair amount of teamwork going on too. I think the only thing slightly worrying is no other player chips in as regularly as Ponce and has double figures.

6 hours ago, _Ben_ said:

As with the goals conceded (one is a penalty so records no assist)

Is there a stat that tells you who wins penalties? Also, how many penalties has your attackers won too?

I don’t see why you can’t record an assist from a penalty, is there a reason why?

Everything looks like a team playing attacking football and one that also doesn’t give up many chances. Looking good for promotion.

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(Late) November 2030

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Sometimes I just need to take a step back and realise how good we actually are. This is probably the most complete month of football I've ever had across thousands of hours of FM...

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We kicked off with a superbly dominant defensive showing against Akron, really stopping them from creating anything before we hammered Orenburg. Clearly, my fans aren't as clued up as I as I read this tweet calling for the dropping of the man who scored a brace on the day. We visited Moscow to play Spartak's second team and did well, if what was probably our least convincing performance of the month. We battered SKA, showing our that we can finish clinically as we created just over 1.5xG, our second lowest of the month, yet scored six times. Rotor visited next and, to be fair to them, gave me a good game, but quality showed through. If I was impressed at the SKA stats, these against Nizhniy were ever better. Despite scoring in the fifth minute, Krivtsov was sent off in the sixth for a reckless tackle, and, from there on in, we basically sat back and absorbed their pressure, not really adding many chances to our flying start. It was the almost perfect counter (not counter attacking) performance. Lastly, we just destroyed goal-shy (at both ends, until this game) Kuban with Ponce taking his tally to 28 goals from 23(2) appearances this season.

---

Just a short bit of development work on Boris, who's really impressing me with his strong training and development.

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In the five months I've been working with him, he's not had a P/R/D (just using MC - Playing Position) but has had an Additional Focus on Ball Control (Dribbling, First Touch and Technique).

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In that time, he's developed the following areas:

  • +1 Dribbling, +1 First Touch, +1 Heading, + 1 Long Throws, + 1 Penalty Taking, + 1 Bravery, + 1 Off the Ball, + 1 Acceleration, + 1 Stamina, + 1 Strength.
  • Gained a new trait.

At just 17, a lot of his attributes are already at an average or above level for this league and it'll be interesting to see how far I can push him and in which way I want to develop him. I currently play him as a Mez(a), because his Finishing isn't too bad and he can dribble and drive into the opposition box. I need to decide whether I continue that or look to utilise him as a Wide Playmaker due to his slight, and not too physical frame. There is a berth ready made for him on the left wing come the time that Nicolas de la Cruz is no longer physically up for it, but we will see as, currently, he has no experience or ability as a wide player.

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18 hours ago, ToMexico!! said:

I'd love to develop a Manuel Antonio in my save but we've failed quite a bit in that department in my save so far. 

He's very very talented and by far the best Mozambican player in my game. It just so happened that I was alerted by his agent, which must be something that you're going to encounter from the other side!

 

12 hours ago, Sonic Youth said:

Is there a stat that tells you who wins penalties? Also, how many penalties has your attackers won too?

I don’t see why you can’t record an assist from a penalty, is there a reason why?

Not that I can see, no. From memory, the spread of penalties won is pretty wide - although I do recall Antonio winning a fair few given his dribbling, technique and speed, which causes lots of problems!

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5 hours ago, Hootieleece said:

If you end up playing with Babushkin wide. You might want to work on his crossing ability.

Otherwise looks like a great player at 17!

 

Absolutely! I had the thought that he'd tuck in as a Wide Playmaker, but, given the fact he's left footed, he's got to be better from the byline. I think I'll continue with a more central role in mind.

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December 2030

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Just the one game, but it's the win that I wanted most this season - in Fischt against my old employers, Sochi.

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It was a really decent game to watch, actually. We kept them at bay, maybe letting them have more shots than I'd like, but at bay anyway. We've seen some absolutely clinical finishing this season and this wasn't quite at that level but there are three players that really epitomise how we've been this season: Antonio - I've got super lucky with our recruitment, Babushkin - I've put lots of thought and man hours (as well as finances from coaches wages) into youth development and it's paying off and Ponce - I've really worked on my tactic to suit the players at my disposal.

I have my eye on a few records, given the strength of my start here:

  • Most points in a season - we can reach 108 with a 100% record and our average PPG takes us to 105.
  • Most wins - we'll need to win 10 of our last twelve to take that title.
  • Fewest defeats - avoid two losses and we'll better our own record.
  • Biggest win - we've already achieved that this season!
  • Most matches won in a row - we've already achieved this, too.
  • Most matches without losing - also achieved this.
  • Most team goals - We need 27 from our last twelves games (2.25 goals/90) but are currently scoring at 2.96 goals/90, which would take us to 112.

And to think, less than a year ago I was on my way to getting sacked by the team I've just destroyed for the second time this season!

----

I'm in a little bit of limbo in regards to the transfer window that is opening shortly. We don't need to sign anyone this window but I always like to get things started for the coming season. However, with us more than likely going to be in a different league, I can't scout and recruit with that in mind as the game doesn't work like that.

However, I do know that my recruitment hasn't really been touched since I took over, and that is a cause for concern.

Below is the knowledge we currently have of the world:

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This stands at just 11% and includes various countries we have knowledge of due to staff, including England thanks to ex-Huddersfield Performance Analyst Emyr Humphreys. We've got good knowledge of some bordering countries: Azerbaijan, Belarus, Ukraine and Kazakhstan, in particular but not a lot else to write home about. 

Yet that is completely to be expected as the board won't let us scout anywhere else. In fact, we're just under North Eastern Europe and the below countries - which are largely there because of staff links.

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To set a scouting assignment, I'm left with these countries. Not exactly gold mines of talent, and those that are decent certainly don't provide players wanting to move to the cold near-Siberian climate of Yekaterinburg. That being said, neither my scouting team nor the general assignment (that I quickly outlined on arrival) have found much. I've been relying on Agent Offers for some absolute fantastic players in this save, which, whilst delightful, isn't a long term solution.

I know that, upon promotion, I'll be allowed eight non Russian players in the first team, up from 4 this year, and I really want to cement a stronghold with a country that prides itself in exporting, or, at least, creating, players that are going to fit into our style. Brazil is the obvious candidate given the huge amount of strength there and the realistic, historical ties that Brazilians have had with emigrating to Northern Europe - but it's not one that can start now. I don't use the Player Search feature for realism sake but, to start this stream of players, I need considerably more knowledge than what I have now:

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That is every Brazilian who is interested in joining me within my recruitment package and he's only there because he's just left a Belarussian team.

 

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Late to the party but just want to say that I’m absolutely captured by the methodology and detail of your save. I feel like we play Football Manager in a very similar way, having a clear North Star, using guiding principles and realistic constraints to guide our decision making. Clearly there is prior art from research and reading and it’s fascinating to see the application to your adventures in Russia. It also makes me wonder how much of an occupational influence there is in your save. There’s even a reference to Tuckman!

I was actually surprised to see that there wasn’t a larger discussion about your DNA score during the squad building process at Anji. It’s something I’ve found to be absolutely critical in recruitment, especially as a way of understanding if any given player is a good “fit” for the aforementioned principles. It’s refreshing to see here, as I find most players focus too much on potential ability, leading to folks signing the same players over and over.

Spookily our vision for the ideal player DNA is almost identical. I score players by their Fibre (heavily influenced by the grinta or grit of Argentinian football) followed by either their Attacking or Defensive competency (matching the structure of training units). This gives me a picture of their DNA fit plus how well they can execute in their roles.

Fibre is an average across First Touch, Decision Making, Determination, Work Rate, and Natural Fitness. For me, First Touch is the only Technical attribute I require in the core DNA because it’s absolute crucial my players can receive the ball under pressure. The better their first touch the more likely they are to succeed in their following action.

Attacking and Defensive Competency I ruminate over every edition but are self explanatory. It’s been 4 years since I’ve set these recruitment scores and I’m still never happy. However, if there are any attributes that need to be in both, then that’s a sign they should be added to the core DNA.

I keep to 5 attributes for each for simplicity and refinement but find it interesting you combine this with statistical data for squad building decisions. This is one area I’m torn with because, by having the core DNA and competency, it should mean the player has the complete ability to perform - at least adequately. If they’re not, then I feel like it points to something I’m doing wrong.

FM is one of those games where you get more back the more you put in. Sometimes I think this is a curse because it gets too easy very quickly, especially with the AI. However, your creativity over constraints, to build this realistic narrative, is definitely something I can learn to find longevity in my games. Will definitely continue to follow your progress in Russia and look forward to seeing where it takes you.

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43 minutes ago, wpmk said:

Late to the party but just want to say that I’m absolutely captured by the methodology and detail of your save. I feel like we play Football Manager in a very similar way, having a clear North Star, using guiding principles and realistic constraints to guide our decision making. Clearly there is prior art from research and reading and it’s fascinating to see the application to your adventures in Russia. It also makes me wonder how much of an occupational influence there is in your save. There’s even a reference to Tuckman!

I was actually surprised to see that there wasn’t a larger discussion about your DNA score during the squad building process at Anji. It’s something I’ve found to be absolutely critical in recruitment, especially as a way of understanding if any given player is a good “fit” for the aforementioned principles. It’s refreshing to see here, as I find most players focus too much on potential ability, leading to folks signing the same players over and over.

Spookily our vision for the ideal player DNA is almost identical. I score players by their Fibre (heavily influenced by the grinta or grit of Argentinian football) followed by either their Attacking or Defensive competency (matching the structure of training units). This gives me a picture of their DNA fit plus how well they can execute in their roles.

Fibre is an average across First Touch, Decision Making, Determination, Work Rate, and Natural Fitness. For me, First Touch is the only Technical attribute I require in the core DNA because it’s absolute crucial my players can receive the ball under pressure. The better their first touch, the more likely they are to succeed in their following action.

Attacking and Defensive Competency I ruminate over every edition but are self explanatory. It’s been 4 years since I’ve set these recruitment KPIs and I’m still never happy. However, if there are any attributes that need to be in both, then that’s a sign they should be added to the DNA score.

I keep to 5 attributes for each for simplicity and refinement but find it interesting you combine this with statistical data for squad building decisions. This is one area I’m torn with because, by having the core DNA and competency, it should mean the player has the complete ability to perform - at least adequately. If they’re not, then I feel like it points to something I’m doing wrong.

FM is one of those games where you get more back the more you put in. Sometimes I think this is a curse because very quickly it gets too easy, especially with the AI. However, your creativity over constraints, to build this realistic narrative, is definitely something I can learn to find longevity in my games. Will definitely continue to follow your progress in Russia and look forward to seeing where it takes you.

 

 

Absolutely brilliant :applause:

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10 hours ago, wpmk said:

Late to the party but just want to say that I’m absolutely captured by the methodology and detail of your save.

Thank you so much for reading and taking time to comment on this post! You've said that you're very similar and, as such, I'd love to read or even just chat more about your FM experiences.

10 hours ago, wpmk said:

It also makes me wonder how much of an occupational influence there is in your save. There’s even a reference to Tuckman!

There really is! I've played and coached football for a big part of my life and I've studied Sports Science at university. It's really a bit strange to apply the same real life things to a computer game, but it's all about my immersion to it.

10 hours ago, wpmk said:

I was actually surprised to see that there wasn’t a larger discussion about your DNA score during the squad building process at Anji. It’s something I’ve found to be absolutely critical in recruitment, especially as a way of understanding if any given player is a good “fit” for the aforementioned principles

I think that, even now, my big problem is that our scouting scope is just too small to uncover these attributes. I've just extended my recruitment package but we don't have enough scouts or have spent enough time with them to see. Therefore, I've been drawn to those attributes I can see before looking at the DNA. It's not my preferred way of doing it, to be fair, but I've had to make do. I also do love looking at the statistical analysis but, again, I've not quite got where I want to yet, simply because we don't play like most lower league Russian teams and, as such, looking for dribbles and interceptions for players to recruit won't be as fruitful as looking for Tackles attempted or (if FM actually went into this much depth) long passes.

10 hours ago, wpmk said:

Fibre is an average across First Touch, Decision Making, Determination, Work Rate, and Natural Fitness. For me, First Touch is the only Technical attribute I require in the core DNA because it’s absolute crucial my players can receive the ball under pressure. The better their first touch, the more likely they are to succeed in their following action.

I think a lot of this comes from above, too. When researching Russia - I had a premonition that it wasn't a technical, fast paced league, even at the top level, but I was wrong. If I was to look at my own First Touch attributes now, they'd be pretty low, especially for defensive players - however, it is the one I do like. I also like Technique and I do want to play with ball playing defenders, but, again, I find that really hit and miss at these slightly lower levels.

10 hours ago, wpmk said:

I keep to 5 attributes for each for simplicity and refinement but find it interesting you combine this with statistical data for squad building decisions

'I'm in the process of extending the DNA but haven't quite settled on what I want yet. It'll almost look like a flowchart:

Overall club DNA -> Positional DNA -> Position KPIs

So I'd look for a good score in Work Rate, for example, then, as a striker, to have good Finishing and Off the Ball but then combine that with (either at our club or where I want to sign him from) an xG/90 of over 0.4, for example. What's taking the time is trying to find what a good KPI is for each area. I think that, whilst I may then lose some underperforming star players, I'll be able to really push that cohesion with my own squad performing how I want and recruiting players that also fit that style, too.

10 hours ago, wpmk said:

FM is one of those games where you get more back the more you put in. Sometimes I think this is a curse because very quickly it gets too easy, especially with the AI

Yeah - I won't lie. It's been a bit easier than expected. Getting sacked in my last job for failing to finish in the top 4 shouldn't allow me to walk into a team that are favourites at this level and them romp the league. However, it does give me great satisfaction to see my tactical ideas play out and allows me to really focus on different parts of the game.

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1 hour ago, _Ben_ said:

Thank you so much for reading and taking time to comment on this post! You've said that you're very similar and, as such, I'd love to read or even just chat more about your FM experiences.

I’m a lurker and occasionally post on the odd tactical thread. For a long time, hoovering up tactical analysis of successful teams and trying to recreate that in game was my raison d’être in FM. These days, I have 3 trained tactics that never change per save, only tweak with each new edition, so find more fun in squad building and player development.

I read a lot of football and business development books so have fun applying those findings in game. Sometimes they completely change how I play, sometimes they just give inspiration on a new save.

Recently, with Ralf Rangnick’s arrival in the Premier League, I’ve been fascinated by his work at Red Bull. While his style of football is not something I identify with, he’s incredibly articulate when it comes to running a football club.

I always think about the 3 Ks. Konzept, Kompetenz, and Kapital. My Konzept never changes, which is why I rarely post in the tactics forum now, and Kapital depends on the save. Kompetenz is the area where I find the most depth and spend my time on FM trying to find or help players execute on the Konzept.

I realise now that I’m hijacking your thread so if you or anyone here has any questions, feel free to send me a message. I’m not one to share my stories but will continue to lurk as long as I’m playing.

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В 30.12.2021 в 22:46, _Ben_ сказал:

I agree! It'd be something to dominate this league without going within 1,000km of the capital! My ideal jobs here are Rostov, Akhmat or Krasnodar before maybe taking the Matryoshka-style to foreign shores somewhere down the line.

I hope you will manage Krasnodar later. This is very positive club. Don't know about your save, but IRL Krasnodar is pretty rich club with interesting infrastructure

FC Krasnodar Stadium & the world's first panoramic stadium screen make  their big debut - Sports Venue Business (SVB)   Park at Krasnodar Stadium | gmp · von Gerkan, Marg and Partners Architects  | Archello

Also owner Sergey Galitskiy dreams of club-growned players. But they also try to buy strong players with good technique atributes

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27 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

Also owner Sergey Galitskiy dreams of club-growned players. But they also try to buy strong players with good technique atributes

They're doing pretty well at the moment, which is good to see, particularly as the league has been dominated by Zenit with just one CSKA win.

9f6fad453a645958e6d060c40be1a5cf.png

Their stadium and ideology is really good to see, also!

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14 часов назад, _Ben_ сказал:

. Not exactly gold mines of talent, and those that are decent certainly don't provide players wanting to move to the cold near-Siberian climate of Yekaterinburg

Serbia has some high-potential newgens. English clubs bought them before Brexit in my saves, but for now probably you have a chance.
As I remember Ekaterinburg has nice attraction in FM. Never visited this city myself, but know Ekaterinburg was awarded for few international ratings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yekaterinburg - The city on the border of Europe and Asia is included by UNESCO in the list of 12 ideal cities of the world along with New York, Tokyo, Stockholm and Paris - for its historical and cultural heritage, bright and very diverse architectural look. 

I meam this is not the best place for footballers and their wifes, but your first problem is D2 of Russia, not city and weather :) Also I suppose new countries will be available after promotion.

15 часов назад, _Ben_ сказал:

I know that, upon promotion, I'll be allowed eight non Russian players in the first team, up from 4 this year, and I really want to cement a stronghold with a country that prides itself in exporting, or, at least, creating, players that are going to fit into our style. Brazil is the obvious candidate given the huge amount of strength there and the realistic, historical ties that Brazilians have had with emigrating to Northern Europe - but it's not one that can start now. I don't use the Player Search feature for realism sake but, to start this stream of players, I need considerably more knowledge than what I have now:

 

Terrible limit still. Many clubs are trying to remove the limit or make it not so categorical, but conservative and interested parties discourage them.
Also don't forget Belarus players are not foreign in RPL. Not sure you will find some good, their newgen rating is poor, but who knows

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Mid Season Break 2031

057c4f017404419c733869a7338495af.png

Three friendlies to get us back up to speed for the remainder of the season. To be fair, we actually start with a cup competition for teams at this level, which is, again, played in Cyprus. The board want me to win it and, to be fair, I don't see why we won't but it does also add to some extra match fitness.

We started with a great win against top flight Lokomotiv, made even sweeter by the fact that we were 2-0 down at half time and a good telling off motivated them enough to absolutely dominate in the second half. These are those little wins that tell me I have absolute control over this team, which is what I want. My second string dominated our D-team but couldn't win, as they scored with their only shot. We then held another top flight team, Ufa, to a draw, although, again, should have won.

----

There was a bitter blow though in these friendlies:

c2862dc4c3134ae3a4b6251105ab25bb.png

Top scorer and arguably the league's best player will probably miss the remainder of the season. Normally, this would be a panic, but not this time. I'm going to put all of my faith in Anton Petrenko. If we weren't running away with the league, I'd definitely be signing a replacement but I see little concern here, given our position and it's far less likely that I can afford him minutes as a newly promoted side next year. Furthermore, when comparing his attributes with the other strikers in the league, I don't actually think he's too bad:

  • Finishing: 15 vs 10.11
  • First Touch: 12 vs 11.69
  • Technique: 9 vs 6.58
  • Composure: 10 vs 11.22
  • Off the Ball: 12 vs 11.14
  • Agility: 13 vs 12.34
  • Pace: 15 vs 12.03

A little less composed but, actually, a better striker than the league average. Now, as a player who is on the periphery of the first team, his stats won't be amazing, even if he's got the knack of getting a goal off the bench. But they are below, and I intend to compare them, and his attributes (from the screenshot) with him in May time, after a prolonged run in the team.

6476caba7f009560c01687f8919c7820.png

---

I'm also going to use this opportunity to promote Ruslan Petrov to the first team. He's just 16 but, ability wise, my staff think he'd be a strong player in the league below us. He's trained amazingly well all season and I think deserves his chance, as a backup, for the remainder of the season before probably spending time on loan next season, hopefully as a regular at this level. He's also a good case study of my approach for individuals at youth level:

1. Positional

From everything I've read, there is no 'CA Cost' (I hate that phrase but it does explain it kind of how I want to) to retrain a wide player to the other side, whereas, due to the attribute weighting, there might be if I wanted to retrain him as a forward. Therefore, I like my wide players to be able to play on both sides. It gives me flexibility about maybe playing inverted players. I don't tend to change the schedule I would use on their favoured side though (e.g. Petrov has been training as an IWB on both sides this season because those are the attributes I want to develop).

2. Attributes

I kind of have a flowchart to follow here:

  • 1) Really low ability -> Just a P/R/D

I do this because they have the most focus on the majority of attributes that will be needed for them. Again, I don't train based on the role I want them to play, instead based on the attributes I want them to develop. This is quite an uncommon route as these players aren't often identified as having good potential and therefore not signed. However, here at Ural, with my five squads, I will make a concise effort to make more of it when this intake comes.

  • 2) Moderate ability -> P/R/D and Additional Focus

Because there is a better base, I'm happier to share the load out between more attributes, particularly if the have an area I want to improve that isn't on their schedule - such as a Inverted Wing Back and Passing. I may even change their unit so that they are playing with players who are better in those areas and receiving more non-P/R/D attention to them. If there is nothing specific to work on - the players, position depending, work on Attacking Movement or Defensive Positioning as these improve attributes in line with my DNA. This is the most common route for my youngsters.

  • 3) One or two weaknesses -> Just an Additional Focus

This will only happen if the player is deemed already quite good but young and with significant barriers between them and first team action, so is pretty rare for my younger players. I just allow them to focus on those two or three attributes that are weak for them. 

3. Player Traits

As a rule, I don't work on player traits at this age. They take up a lot of time that could be used to develop their base attributes. I do use the notes to keep a log of ideas I have for them but they tend to learn them once they are a bit more established and near to the first team.

---

My first team currently has the following young players in it:

3d6e0fd4aeb03816f7c8327ee6b66602.png

Following the great post by @wpmk, I have decided that it would be useful to include First Touch as part of their DNA but, fortunately, you can see that, Makarov aside, they are actually quite strong in these areas. This is where it becomes a bit of a shame. My plan isn't to spend too long at Ural and, as such, I doubt I'll be there to see these players reach 23/24 years old and become really embedded within a team after being built by me. However, this is all about me feeling like I'm making a realistic career for myself!

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4 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

Serbia has some high-potential newgens. English clubs bought them before Brexit in my saves, but for now probably you have a chance.
As I remember Ekaterinburg has nice attraction in FM. Never visited this city myself, but know Ekaterinburg was awarded for few international ratings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yekaterinburg - The city on the border of Europe and Asia is included by UNESCO in the list of 12 ideal cities of the world along with New York, Tokyo, Stockholm and Paris - for its historical and cultural heritage, bright and very diverse architectural look. 

I meam this is not the best place for footballers and their wifes, but your first problem is D2 of Russia, not city and weather :) Also I suppose new countries will be available after promotion.

Terrible limit still. Many clubs are trying to remove the limit or make it not so categorical, but conservative and interested parties discourage them.
Also don't forget Belarus players are not foreign in RPL. Not sure you will find some good, their newgen rating is poor, but who knows

Yes, I've been looking at Serbs but they can't come right now as we're full in regards to our foreigner limit. They're also pretty pricy for a team losing nearly £500k a month!

I read a lot into Yekaterinburg and think it's a lovely place. Certainly reads as being nicer than Makhachkala anyway!

I've just added the Belarusian league to the game and will be using that as it seems to be a much better league than the other non-foreign nations for producing talent for me.

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1 hour ago, wpmk said:

I’m a lurker and occasionally post on the odd tactical thread. For a long time, hoovering up tactical analysis of successful teams and trying to recreate that in game was my raison d’être in FM. These days, I have 3 trained tactics that never change per save, only tweak with each new edition, so find more fun in squad building and player development.

I read a lot of football and business development books so have fun applying those findings in game. Sometimes they completely change how I play, sometimes they just give inspiration on a new save.

Recently, with Ralf Rangnick’s arrival in the Premier League, I’ve been fascinated by his work at Red Bull. While his style of football is not something I identify with, he’s incredibly articulate when it comes to running a football club.

I always think about the 3 Ks. Konzept, Kompetenz, and Kapital. My Konzept never changes, which is why I rarely post in the tactics forum now, and Kapital depends on the save. Kompetenz is the area where I find the most depth and spend my time on FM trying to find or help players execute on the Konzept.

I realise now that I’m hijacking your thread so if you or anyone here has any questions, feel free to send me a message. I’m not one to share my stories but will continue to lurk as long as I’m playing.

You should do your career updates :thup: I would definitely be reading it!

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25 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

Serbia has some high-potential newgens. English clubs bought them before Brexit in my saves, but for now probably you have a chance.
As I remember Ekaterinburg has nice attraction in FM. Never visited this city myself, but know Ekaterinburg was awarded for few international ratings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yekaterinburg - The city on the border of Europe and Asia is included by UNESCO in the list of 12 ideal cities of the world along with New York, Tokyo, Stockholm and Paris - for its historical and cultural heritage, bright and very diverse architectural look. 

 

Wow, they looks beautiful with scenery, take my money!!

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February 2031

14be857b8296181942c9b21f25a19eb4.png

New year. Same us.

2fb46a1d94f6a461607f99b547bda6e1.png

Three successive three-nil wins, with each probably just a little better than the one before it. We started with a fantastic win over Chaika, showing that incisive football that we can offer at times. Any reservations I had about Petrenko were quickly quashed as he netted a hattrick as we eased by. He scored again against Sochi as we continued our dominating streak against them, which was greeted by some silly comments in the media from their new manager. A final group stage win against Khimki was pleasing as, again, we were able to shuffle our deck and get some extra match fitness. A slightly stronger team then destroyed Kuban in the semi final. Orenburg await us in the Grand Final early next month.

---

February also sees the youth intake, and, given the importance I'm putting on development, I'm happy with what I've been given.

47b006d6ca5a41096d1dbba920fc0ca9.png

The full intake again shows more than the normal 16 players, something I was plagued with at Anji but I think I've found the reason - they appear to be 'poached' from my 2-side. A quite frankly ridiculous thing to do but that may be due to the non-official database that I'm using. Overall, the personalities are pretty poor and it's not the best intake but I've signed a few and put them all on their individual development plans. Out of the crop, Andrey Matveev and Georgy Stolbikov excite me the most.

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Complete domination! What is your league goal difference? Must be ridiculous! Also another question I have, what do you do in terms of training schedules? 

 

@crusadertsar just published a nice post regarding the DM position in a 433 and it reminded me of your previous post and discussion here. I will certainly be giving it a try with my side.

 

Edited by RogerC
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On 09/01/2022 at 09:53, _Ben_ said:

I'm in the process of extending the DNA but haven't quite settled on what I want yet. It'll almost look like a flowchart:

Overall club DNA -> Positional DNA -> Position KPIs

So I'd look for a good score in Work Rate, for example, then, as a striker, to have good Finishing and Off the Ball but then combine that with (either at our club or where I want to sign him from) an xG/90 of over 0.4, for example. What's taking the time is trying to find what a good KPI is for each area. I think that, whilst I may then lose some underperforming star players, I'll be able to really push that cohesion with my own squad performing how I want and recruiting players that also fit that style, too.

This is a really mature approach tbh which combines the initial vetting from DNA scores and measures their efficacy through carefully chosen KPIs. I think statistical data is a great way to confirm the original hypothesis. Certainly if I was a club owner I’d feel more comfortable parting with cash knowing recruitment has followed a thorough process. Did anyone read about Toronto FC’s approach for Insigne? Sheesh.

I don’t think it’s too farfetched of an idea either having read Wings of Change by Karajan Tejwani. He mentions that Red Bull effectively score their own players with a strong focus on “mental” attributes. I even read of an u19 sports psychologist presenting scores back to young players in the form of an Ultimate Team style FIFA card. Although, rating personalities seems a step too far…

I’ve been trying to find more information on this to understand how they turn qualitative data into a quantitative known that can be measured, but also what do they value most to consistently find good young players that have all the attributes for success?

Will share if I find anything.

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11 hours ago, RogerC said:

Complete domination! What is your league goal difference?

Currently P29, GF 83, GA10. Pretty dominant, yes!

11 hours ago, RogerC said:

Also another question I have, what do you do in terms of training schedules? 

Something I need to go into more detail about, after I mentioned it, at length, in the first post...

I have two foci that are dependent on the strength of the opposition - attack and defend.

Attacking week:

9be56ea5a11bf7bf1424a739616cfd1d.png

Defensive Week:

b15e12363b2246a83d11959202588d96.png

They are both built around the tactical periodisation that Jose Mourinho favours (there should also be a link in the first post) and pick schedules that fit in with our overarching tactical principles - attack fats and wide and defend wide and from the front.

I also have a 2-game week schedule:

cf3d98e02dffaae5d1cbf4676fd966b2.png

Far less actual training and just more match prep here, with some set piece stuff thrown in.

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6 hours ago, wpmk said:

This is a really mature approach tbh which combines the initial vetting from DNA scores and measures their efficacy through carefully chosen KPIs. I think statistical data is a great way to confirm the original hypothesis. Certainly if I was a club owner I’d feel more comfortable parting with cash knowing recruitment has followed a thorough process.

I don’t think it’s too farfetched either having read Wings of Change by Karajan Tejwani. He mentions that Red Bull effectively score their own players with a strong focus on “mental” attributes. I even read of an u19 sports psychologist presenting scores back to young players in the form of an Ultimate Team style FIFA card. Although, rating personalities seems a step too far…

I’ve been trying to find more information on this to understand how they turn qualitative data into a quantitative known that can be measured, but also what do they value most to consistently find good young players that have all the attributes for success?

Will share if I find anything.

I need to get into some more football reading, to be fair, as there is so much connection that can be fostered between the game and real life.

I really like my recruitment process and the only thing I'd like to add is that personality vetting that you speak of. In FM21, I included Consistency as one of my core-DNA attributes, which was interesting. It gave me a static number and, at that point, my plan was to track and see how much, if any, I could make it grow. It didn't. I do think that there could be some kind of model created, combining the information we know with some kind of Likert scale to create an overall 'FM personality score.'

So, x player is:

  • Professional - that scores 9 out of 10 on a ranking
  • Evasive - that indicates he's also got good Professionalism and is good at handling Pressure - 8 out of 10.
  • Determination - score of 14.

Then maybe I'd look for those green, amber or red markers for things like Important Matches, Consistency etc and rate those accordingly. Of course, all of these could be done through the editor but I don't feel like I'd want to know the exact amount as it's really not realistic, and, even though attributes are, there are no in-game KPIs that can be used to back up that data.

Then...

I'd use some kind of Likert to scale to monitor those things that their attributes make them do - which, I guess, is a bit of a KPI. 1 being 'Never' and 10 being 'Always' for example on questions like:

"Reacts positively to team talks and is motivated"

"Accepts criticism and attributes improve following formal warning/fine"

"Reacts well in confrontational situations - e.g. contract renewals"

---

With some kind of average of these scores, you'd be able to get some kind of qualitative data from your squad. Obviously, this cannot be used to recruit though.

 

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I suppose if I was in the shoes of an u19 sports psychologist I’d prefer to measure the professionalism of a player rather than score their personality, and focus on helping them increase their emotional intelligence. I know in the world of FM there’s no social impact to the practise but there’s something incredibly robotic about detaching the personality from a player and trying to change it. The author’s tone was something similar but it is absolutely fascinating nonetheless.

If I looked at it from a professionalism angle, I’d probably pull from their training performance, and as you say how well they react to individual feedback and team talks. I wonder if IRL a Red Bull team would pull from how well they do in school, their engagement towards mentoring, and if they do any extra-curricular activities such as helping out in team community projects.

This is the kind of depth I crave though and I’m keen to learn more. You’ve mentioned it a few times about sometimes things getting too gamey. The mentoring side always felt gamey to me but would to love to engage in this in a different way so I’m interested to hear your results if you do decide to dig deeper here.

In terms of recruiting, I don’t have too many ideas aside from the clues given in scouting reports. I suppose IRL, at least at youth level, a scout would speak to the coaching staff, families, and individuals to build a bigger picture. It would certainly add another dimension to FM if there was more depth here to help us avoid the Alexandr Kokorin’s and Pavel Mamaev’s of this world…

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1 hour ago, _Ben_ said:

Obviously, this cannot be used to recruit though.

I think you could, as a player that doesn’t fit in with the rest of your squad is likely to find it harder to make connections, as well as play and train in a motivated way. If the end up not liked or on the outer, that’s a problem for the club.

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12 hours ago, _Ben_ said:

I need to get into some more football reading, to be fair, as there is so much connection that can be fostered between the game and real life.

I really like my recruitment process and the only thing I'd like to add is that personality vetting that you speak of. In FM21, I included Consistency as one of my core-DNA attributes, which was interesting. It gave me a static number and, at that point, my plan was to track and see how much, if any, I could make it grow. It didn't. I do think that there could be some kind of model created, combining the information we know with some kind of Likert scale to create an overall 'FM personality score.'

So, x player is:

  • Professional - that scores 9 out of 10 on a ranking
  • Evasive - that indicates he's also got good Professionalism and is good at handling Pressure - 8 out of 10.
  • Determination - score of 14.

Then maybe I'd look for those green, amber or red markers for things like Important Matches, Consistency etc and rate those accordingly. Of course, all of these could be done through the editor but I don't feel like I'd want to know the exact amount as it's really not realistic, and, even though attributes are, there are no in-game KPIs that can be used to back up that data.

Then...

I'd use some kind of Likert to scale to monitor those things that their attributes make them do - which, I guess, is a bit of a KPI. 1 being 'Never' and 10 being 'Always' for example on questions like:

"Reacts positively to team talks and is motivated"

"Accepts criticism and attributes improve following formal warning/fine"

"Reacts well in confrontational situations - e.g. contract renewals"

---

With some kind of average of these scores, you'd be able to get some kind of qualitative data from your squad. Obviously, this cannot be used to recruit though.

 

This is something I've tried to do via an excel table (as seen, compressed below) in my saves. I still haven't progressed up to the 'scoring' stage but I can know easily (and automatically) identify hidden attributes without 'cheating' with the use of the IGE.

892243861_Picture1.png.14637a1eadd384c884b52de36be9c42a.png

This is done through cross-referencing the hidden attribute values in the following two tables to get the smallest possible range for each hidden attribute if applicable (click for bigger size).

1655314785_Picture3.png.6f042c3fc6502b8ff44a157fc0f38330.png   ----  1689998103_Picture2.thumb.png.3f1ad54774eb39d9b9a5f6bc8a051aab.png

click for full size

As for consistency, this has to be done manually. I have mildly researched values for every description you get from your coach/scouts in the player report. It is not 100% accurate and I'm not sure if it depends on scout/coach CA recognition or it is possibly save-game dependant because I've tried to identify the same players (for example Arsenal players) with Arsenal's own coaches and also using another teams scouts and IIRC some players had slightly different descriptions.

947839123_Picture4.png.6ab71e33d4635d5914477c4209a5dec4.png

On the left: Each light grey number represents a player checked, it is the consistency number taken from IGE, and I put it in the corresponding row according to the scout/coach report description on the right. In the middle: in light grey you can see the average of all the tests and to its right the ranges I have come up with for each description. Now the data size is small and as you can see some of the descriptions overlap themselves and there's still some work to do, it is something I did a few months back but haven't gone into further depth yet.

I'm sure using this or something similar to it, and obviously with the visible attributes, it wouldn't be too hard to create a proper valuation for players even though things like consistency, big matches, squad adaptability, injury susceptibility would be things that would have to be added manually requiring quite a bit of work for a whole squad.

 

Sorry for taking over the thread.

Edited by RogerC
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4 hours ago, RogerC said:

This is something I've tried to do via an excel table (as seen, compressed below) in my saves. I still haven't progressed up to the 'scoring' stage but I can know easily (and automatically) identify hidden attributes without 'cheating' with the use of the IGE.

892243861_Picture1.png.14637a1eadd384c884b52de36be9c42a.png

This is done through cross-referencing the hidden attribute values in the following two tables to get the smallest possible range for each hidden attribute if applicable (click for bigger size).

1655314785_Picture3.png.6f042c3fc6502b8ff44a157fc0f38330.png   ----  1689998103_Picture2.thumb.png.3f1ad54774eb39d9b9a5f6bc8a051aab.png

click for full size

As for consistency, this has to be done manually. I have mildly researched values for every description you get from your coach/scouts in the player report. It is not 100% accurate and I'm not sure if it depends on scout/coach CA recognition or it is possibly save-game dependant because I've tried to identify the same players (for example Arsenal players) with Arsenal's own coaches and also using another teams scouts and IIRC some players had slightly different descriptions.

947839123_Picture4.png.6ab71e33d4635d5914477c4209a5dec4.png

On the left: Each light grey number represents a player checked, it is the consistency number taken from IGE, and I put it in the corresponding row according to the scout/coach report description on the right. In the middle: in light grey you can see the average of all the tests and to its right the ranges I have come up with for each description. Now the data size is small and as you can see some of the descriptions overlap themselves and there's still some work to do, it is something I did a few months back but haven't gone into further depth yet.

I'm sure using this or something similar to it, and obviously with the visible attributes, it wouldn't be too hard to create a proper valuation for players even though things like consistency, big matches, squad adaptability, injury susceptibility would be things that would have to be added manually requiring quite a bit of work for a whole squad.

 

Sorry for taking over the thread.

Excellent work! Even if there are some overlaps on the consistency scale, I think it’s great being able to compare and contrast against other scores.

I usually have a threshold of around “12”, depending on the league level, as a minimum viable competency. It looks like this would work on a consistency scale too.

Also, yes, I fear my hunger for depth here has derailed the topic somewhat. Ben, if you’d prefer to keep it to your save here then perhaps this is an opportunity for us to create a thread in the Tactics and Training forum instead?

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@RogerC- I really like that spreadsheet. I wonder if that's something, in the future, maybe in a thread in the Training/Development area that we could collaborate on. The ideas that you propose and the wider reading too from @wpmkare fantastic!

Edited by _Ben_
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