which mentality is more conducive for a quick and direct counter attacking style and why?

fraudiola · October 29, 2021

mentalities in FM seem so counter-intuitive to me

CARRERA · October 29, 2021

It depens on where youd like your team to actually initiate that counter attack. Do you want to break forward quickly after winnign the ball in the others team half? pick positive or above. If you want to initiate your counter attack from around the middle line or even your defensive third, then pick balanced or below.

Apply pressure and break forward quickly, or soak up pressure and then break forward quickly. both are possible.

Zemahh · October 29, 2021

From @THOG's Lines and Diamonds guide.

DarJ · October 29, 2021

4 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Do you want to break forward quickly after winnign the ball in the others team half? pick positive or above. If you want to initiate your counter attack from around the middle line or even your defensive third, then pick balanced or below.

Isn't that dependant on your LOE? I've always thought that even with a very attacking mentality and much lower LOE, you're still trying to win the ball closer to your defensive third

CARRERA · October 29, 2021

36 minutes ago, DarJ said:

Isn't that dependant on your LOE? I've always thought that even with a very attacking mentality and much lower LOE, you're still trying to win the ball closer to your defensive third

Yes, but an attacking mentality doesnt suit a low block because defenders will take much more risks in terms of tackling, marking tightness and pressing triggers. Also transitional phases are much slower as players (also defensive ones) move up the pitch and therefore have to make long distances which can be very energy consuming. Thats why you pick a balanced or lower mentality if you want to soak up pressure und initiate your counter attacks from low positioning. And due to the fact, that "counter attacks" are a completely diffrent mechanic in terms of how your players behave, there is no contradiction with the overall rather slow build-up of lower mentalities.

However, i wouldnt nessecarily go lower then balanced simply because those mentalities primary purpose is just to soak up pressure and not specifically for actually making things happen in front of the others team goal. there is a reason why they are coming with time wasting by default.

Edited October 29, 2021 by CARRERA

Johnny Ace · October 29, 2021

4 hours ago, Zemahh said:

From @THOG's Lines and Diamonds guide.

That's a brilliant guide but I think it's out of date now, for example, defensive teams passing long from out the back, what we're seeing in FM22 are defensive teams passing short out of the back & Very Attacking (Overload) doesn't auto come with the offside trap

I've always found that on anything below Balanced you can forget counters & the higher up the mentalities trigger them more often because of the risk players are willing to take

I'm pretty sure the LOE is on a scale too, so much higher on Balanced is the same as standard on Attacking like every other slider (if that makes sense, it's late & I'm tired )

fraudiola · October 30, 2021

much confusion such wow

Johnny Ace · October 30, 2021

1 hour ago, fraudiola said:

much confusion such wow

Just start Positive or Attacking & tick Counter, watch the games & adjust

fraudiola · October 30, 2021

23 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Just start Positive or Attacking & tick Counter, watch the games & adjust

i like how counter-intuitive the mentalities are

i tend to go attacking and lower loe or even much lower but the trade off is my defend duty players joining the attack when they shouldn't. i find that lower mentalities lack that bite once you win the ball back.

Johnny Ace · October 30, 2021

Just now, fraudiola said:

i like how counter-intuitive the mentalities are

i tend to go attacking and lower loe or even much lower but the trade off is my defend duty players joining the attack when they shouldn't. i find that lower mentalities lack that bite once you win the ball back.

Yep, 100%, but it is what it is & we have to work with it :thup:

kingjericho · October 30, 2021

I use attacking and then tinker the DL/LOE to have a lower block

VinceLombardi · October 30, 2021

I love building quick counter attacking systems and there are a few ways to go about it.

When it comes to team mentality, remember that it's a starting point and everything else adds or detracts from it. Further, team mentality influences a huge number of things and so a team mentality change can significantly change how a team plays. Also, because team mentality is so influential it should typically be the first thing you determine when building a tactic (along with your general shape) and then use other instructions to dial in and fine tune the tactics.

Finally, it's important to remember team mentality significantly influences, but is entirely separate from, individual player mentality which is what actually determines a player's base risk taking and behavior on the pitch. Individual player mentality is a function of team mentality, the player's position (CD, STC, etc) and player duty (defend, support, attack) and can be determined by looking at the individual player on the tactic screen.

In terms of mentality settings, there are two primary ways I build counter attacking systems are:

1) Use a balanced team mentality and then use attack duties on the players you want to participate in the attack.

2) Use an attacking team mentality, but use a lot more support/defend duties to make sure that your more defensive player's mentalities don't get too high.

I would use the first setup as a starting place for a top heavy systems (like a 4-3-3) where your attacking players are already high up the pitch.

I would use the second setup as a starting space for a more aggressive defensive system that plays a mid block that seeks to regain possession in the middle third.

The real challenge is a low block, bottom heavy formation, like a 4-1-4-1. In those systems you need higher player mentality so that the attacking players get forward quickly on the break. But you also need to keep the mentality lower so that they keep their shape and can absorb the pressure created by the low lines.

In previous FMs, you could accomplish this by playing with the fluid/structured slider. But with that gone, we gotta create it ourselves. The best way I have found is by creating a really structured shape where everybody is fine-tuned for what you need. Unfortunately this often requires a lot of TIs, PIs and testing to work out.

In this system, your attacking players need to have a high personal mentality so that they get forward (which typically means an attack duty), but then you need to then counter that with instructions like close down less so that they keep their shape in defense. Alternatively you could go with a lower personal mentality (typically a support duty) to get them to play more disciplined in defense, but then you've got to use PIs like get further forward, risky passes, or increasing passing length to get them to play the ball forward aggressively in attack.

As you can see it's a lot of work and tweaking to build this sort of low block bottom heavy formation, which I think contributes to the feelings that FM doesn't really support that playstyle/tactic. It can. It's just a lot of work and really requires a deep understanding of how all the various instructions work and counteract one another.

This post has already turned into a book, so I'll leave it there. And I could write a lot more on the topic as I've completed ignored line settings, pressing, tempo, and passing length which all are hugely influential. But I tend to be long winded and you said mentality was your big issue, so I tried to limit myself to just that.

If you have a specific idea for a tactic in mind, I would be happy to assist more.

Edited October 30, 2021 by VinceLombardi

fraudiola · October 30, 2021

16 minutes ago, VinceLombardi said:

In this system, your attacking players need to have a high personal mentality so that they get forward (which typically means an attack duty), but then you need to then counter that with instructions like close down less so that they keep their shape in defense. Alternatively you could go with a lower personal mentality (typically a support duty) to get them to play more disciplined in defense, but then you've got to use PIs like get further forward, risky passes, or increasing passing length to get them to play the ball forward aggressively in attack.

yea but a IW/a on a cautious team mentality still ends up on positive individual mentality, balanced if you select overlap. while a CM/d on attacking is balanced and very defensive on cautious. i'd like my CM/d to be on very defensive while my winger to be very attacking. maybe they should have an option to allow players to set individual player mentalities as they wish.

CARRERA · October 30, 2021

I can just add once again, that if a counter attack triggers, it does override all of your instructions and mentality settings to make players run and play the ball forward quickly. What you need to think about is how you want to attack outside of a counter attack and how you'd like to defend.

To trigger a counter attack you usually need to catch the opposition on the break forward bei either soaking up pressure and cutting of passing lanes if you want to win the ball back in your own half or by creating pressure and pressing traps if you want to win the ball back high up the pitch.

VinceLombardi · October 30, 2021

1 hour ago, fraudiola said:

maybe they should have an option to allow players to set individual player mentalities as they wish.

100% agree.

Honestly, a "positive" personal mentality isn't high enough to create the forward movement and high risk you need to lead the attack in a counter attacking system. And "very defensive" as a personal mentality is prolly overkill even in a defensive setup. They are going to be too passive to really effect the game, as they won't press or tackle even if a player enters their area. This makes them extremely easy to play around.

Remember player mentality is a measure of their risk taking, not their actual duty on the pitch. So "very defensive" really means "extremely risk adverse". This includes their decisions on the defensive side of the ball. A "very defensive" player is not more defensive than a "balanced" player. He is just more risk adverse. If the player has good defensive attributes, you actually want him to have a higher mentality so that he is more active in defense and taking the risk to make tackles and interceptions.

Edited October 30, 2021 by VinceLombardi

yellowforever · October 30, 2021

51 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

I can just add once again, that if a counter attack triggers, it does override all of your instructions and mentality settings to make players run and play the ball forward quickly. What you need to think about is how you want to attack outside of a counter attack and how you'd like to defend.

To trigger a counter attack you usually need to catch the opposition on the break forward bei either soaking up pressure and cutting of passing lanes if you want to win the ball back in your own half or by creating pressure and pressing traps if you want to win the ball back high up the pitch.

This is important - I feel like a lot of people don't know this. Think of a counter attack as an 'event' that happens in game. Your job when making a counter based tactic is working out how to remain defensively solid while triggering this in game event as much as possible.

fraudiola · October 30, 2021

13 minutes ago, yellowforever said:

Your job when making a counter based tactic is working out how to remain defensively solid while triggering this in game event as much as possible.

442 TM-AF yeetball FTW lol

Mitja · November 4, 2021

I'd definitely use higher mentality even attacking for what you want to achieve. There are other instructions you need to consider. Lower block will give you space for counters and it's essential. Higher passing directness and tempo will get the ball forward earlier. Ticking Counter instruction will enhance numbers of counters.

Mentality can be described as player's willingness to take more risks and team's urgency to score. Depending on ME version lower mentalities might be too passive for quick counter attacking style especially if you rely on tactical creator. I've been saying this for long time because of mentality game's realism suffers in terms of attacking teams playing too direct and urgent (and vice versa for defensive) which is something it looks like SI are not able to balance out. When you add to it ME problem like inability to properly press the backline then there's scenario where defensive teams control the match with endless passing at the back. Opposite happens what it should and what game's description says. Tactical creator has outgrown instruction like mentality and it's holding back realism and match day experience.

Mitja · November 4, 2021

Just a quick example what I mean. Passing urgency/risk is influenced by instructions like passing directness, tempo, take more risk, counter attack, creative freedom and probably some more. Is there a need for mentality to interfere further? Isn't the risk taking already defined by those instructions?

Johnny Ace · November 4, 2021

Completely agree @Mitja

28 minutes ago, Mitja said:

When you add to it ME problem like inability to properly press the backline then there's scenario where defensive teams control the match with endless passing at the back. Opposite happens what it should and what game's description says. Tactical creator has outgrown instruction like mentality and it's holding back realism and match day experience.

It should be more like how it used to be, Defensive mentalities, pass longer from the back, shorter when in possession up the field. Attacking mentalities, shorter from the back, more direct in possession up the field rather than defensive = shorter, attacking = more direct. I'd change up mentalities for this very reason, it causes confusion & defensive teams bossing possession.

Probably one for the feature requests but I'd split it up, GK/D/M/A & allow us to choose passing (& everything else) per strata, I think the AI could cope with that. It would eliminate the possession problem because defensive AI managers would then choose GK/D/M = Direct Passing A = Balanced Passing & Pep type managers Short passing all round. Same for Tempo too

I'd have it on scale of Shorter/ Short/Balanced/ Direct/ More Direct or something like that

Basically, Team Mentality has far too much influence for one-click

15 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Just a quick example what I mean. Passing urgency/risk is influenced by instructions like passing directness, tempo, take more risk, counter attack, creative freedom and probably some more. Is there a need for mentality to interfere further? Isn't the risk taking already defined by those instructions?

You posted that as I was typing the above but it's exactly what I'm on about

I'd still have Individual player mentality though, how it's set, I don't know. Maybe just have Team Mentality to influence that & not team instructions

fc.cadoni · November 4, 2021

15 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Just a quick example what I mean. Passing urgency/risk is influenced by instructions like passing directness, tempo, take more risk, counter attack, creative freedom and probably some more. Is there a need for mentality to interfere further? Isn't the risk taking already defined by those instructions?

As far I understand, player follow first TI, then PI and last PPM. Maybe I am wrong into this.

Johnny Ace · November 4, 2021

Just now, fc.cadoni said:

As far I understand, player follow first TI, then PI and last PPM. Maybe I am wrong into this.

PPMs are first I think

Mitja · November 4, 2021

11 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I believe it's still like it used to be that lower mentality uses more direct passing at the back and shorter upfront but I might be wrong. Even if it was changed that doesn't change the fact that mentality affect passing urgency and risk. That's what the core of the problem is in terms of possession stats and match realism. There's no reason for mentality to interfere into passing urgency with so many other clear meaning instructions already defining it. Don't you agree that's the main problem?

Johnny Ace · November 4, 2021

2 minutes ago, Mitja said:

I believe it's still like it used to be that lower mentality uses more direct passing at the back and shorter upfront but I might be wrong. Even if it was changed that doesn't change the fact that mentality affect passing urgency and risk. That's what the core of the problem is in terms of possession stats and match realism. There's no reason for mentality to interfere into passing urgency with so many other clear meaning instructions already defining it. Don't you agree that's the main problem?

I think it's just shorter, it's part of why you can beat Norwich 7-0 & they have 60% possession, all these short passes around the back

Yeah, passing somewhat ties into mentality, tempo is how quick (urgent) a player will make a pass/ any other action to get the ball up the field quicker. Player mentality, in it'simplest form is what he does when he gets the ball & the choice he'll make & how risky that is, like a Pressing Forward (D) when receiving the pass in the box will most likely shield the ball & look for a teammate where on (A) he's taking a shot. One mentality helps you keep the ball & set up a scoring chance, the other mentality is taking a risk by having the shot

Which is another thing that ties into the "Norwich's", lower mentality means lower mentalities for the players too, so when they get the ball, they're playing the safe pass, the safe option to keep the ball, they're mainly not looking to score

Mitja · November 4, 2021

Another solution could be that short passing + low tempo wouldn't be available with lower mentality.

But I believe that TC has outgrown the need for one instruction that modifies all other in way nobody understands and which only creates confusion and unrealistic match scenarios. It makes no sense anymore. Also in real life what we call mentality is a sum of all other instructions.

There's another problem with mentality how it interferes with tactical setups especially with extreme tactics it makes them even more def/att. That's why the opposite scenario usually happens between big and small teams and not so much between equal.

Johnny Ace · November 4, 2021

4 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Another solution could be that short passing + low tempo wouldn't be available with lower mentality.

I think it should still be there, as an option, I wouldn't want tactical options taken away, I think AI managers need to up their mentalities, especially when losing

6 minutes ago, Mitja said:

But I believe that TC has outgrown the need for one instruction that modifies all other in way nobody understands and which only creates confusion and unrealistic match scenarios. It makes no sense anymore. Also in real life what we call mentality is a sum of all other instructions.

I think I said it somewhere else, about how's it's not useful to new players to the game, having mentality controlling so much. For example, new player, wants to play like Pep, picks Attacking & shorter passing, then watches his team make long passes & get out possessed by Watford

Mitja · November 4, 2021

14 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Which is another thing that ties into the "Norwich's", lower mentality means lower mentalities for the players too, so when they get the ball, they're playing the safe pass, the safe option to keep the ball, they're mainly not looking to score

Not looking to score in the box? That shouldn't be an option in football game. 😜

Decision making should much more depend on circumstances and player ability than something as abstract as mentality.

Johnny Ace · November 4, 2021

22 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Not looking to score in the box? That shouldn't be an option in football game. 😜

Decision making should much more depend on circumstances and player ability than something as abstract as mentality.

How it all ties in is mind blowing when you think about it, it's all an absolutely massive subject

bibird. · November 4, 2021

On 30/10/2021 at 15:58, VinceLombardi said:

I love building quick counter attacking systems and there are a few ways to go about it.

When it comes to team mentality, remember that it's a starting point and everything else adds or detracts from it. Further, team mentality influences a huge number of things and so a team mentality change can significantly change how a team plays. Also, because team mentality is so influential it should typically be the first thing you determine when building a tactic (along with your general shape) and then use other instructions to dial in and fine tune the tactics.

Finally, it's important to remember team mentality significantly influences, but is entirely separate from, individual player mentality which is what actually determines a player's base risk taking and behavior on the pitch. Individual player mentality is a function of team mentality, the player's position (CD, STC, etc) and player duty (defend, support, attack) and can be determined by looking at the individual player on the tactic screen.

In terms of mentality settings, there are two primary ways I build counter attacking systems are:

1) Use a balanced team mentality and then use attack duties on the players you want to participate in the attack.

2) Use an attacking team mentality, but use a lot more support/defend duties to make sure that your more defensive player's mentalities don't get too high.

I would use the first setup as a starting place for a top heavy systems (like a 4-3-3) where your attacking players are already high up the pitch.

I would use the second setup as a starting space for a more aggressive defensive system that plays a mid block that seeks to regain possession in the middle third.

The real challenge is a low block, bottom heavy formation, like a 4-1-4-1. In those systems you need higher player mentality so that the attacking players get forward quickly on the break. But you also need to keep the mentality lower so that they keep their shape and can absorb the pressure created by the low lines.

In previous FMs, you could accomplish this by playing with the fluid/structured slider. But with that gone, we gotta create it ourselves. The best way I have found is by creating a really structured shape where everybody is fine-tuned for what you need. Unfortunately this often requires a lot of TIs, PIs and testing to work out.

In this system, your attacking players need to have a high personal mentality so that they get forward (which typically means an attack duty), but then you need to then counter that with instructions like close down less so that they keep their shape in defense. Alternatively you could go with a lower personal mentality (typically a support duty) to get them to play more disciplined in defense, but then you've got to use PIs like get further forward, risky passes, or increasing passing length to get them to play the ball forward aggressively in attack.

As you can see it's a lot of work and tweaking to build this sort of low block bottom heavy formation, which I think contributes to the feelings that FM doesn't really support that playstyle/tactic. It can. It's just a lot of work and really requires a deep understanding of how all the various instructions work and counteract one another.

This is one of the finest posts I've read in a long time on this forum. Really nails the way I like to play the game, but explained in a far more coherant way than I could! Well done.

I genuinely think a lot of newer players should read and understand this post, try it out in their games and then, once they've got a grasp of mentality, roles and duties, move onto adding other tactical options into their systems.

tyro · November 4, 2021

On 30/10/2021 at 16:58, VinceLombardi said:

I love building quick counter attacking systems and there are a few ways to go about it.

When it comes to team mentality, remember that it's a starting point and everything else adds or detracts from it. Further, team mentality influences a huge number of things and so a team mentality change can significantly change how a team plays. Also, because team mentality is so influential it should typically be the first thing you determine when building a tactic (along with your general shape) and then use other instructions to dial in and fine tune the tactics.

Finally, it's important to remember team mentality significantly influences, but is entirely separate from, individual player mentality which is what actually determines a player's base risk taking and behavior on the pitch. Individual player mentality is a function of team mentality, the player's position (CD, STC, etc) and player duty (defend, support, attack) and can be determined by looking at the individual player on the tactic screen.

In terms of mentality settings, there are two primary ways I build counter attacking systems are:

1) Use a balanced team mentality and then use attack duties on the players you want to participate in the attack.

2) Use an attacking team mentality, but use a lot more support/defend duties to make sure that your more defensive player's mentalities don't get too high.

I would use the first setup as a starting place for a top heavy systems (like a 4-3-3) where your attacking players are already high up the pitch.

I would use the second setup as a starting space for a more aggressive defensive system that plays a mid block that seeks to regain possession in the middle third.

The real challenge is a low block, bottom heavy formation, like a 4-1-4-1. In those systems you need higher player mentality so that the attacking players get forward quickly on the break. But you also need to keep the mentality lower so that they keep their shape and can absorb the pressure created by the low lines.

In previous FMs, you could accomplish this by playing with the fluid/structured slider. But with that gone, we gotta create it ourselves. The best way I have found is by creating a really structured shape where everybody is fine-tuned for what you need. Unfortunately this often requires a lot of TIs, PIs and testing to work out.

In this system, your attacking players need to have a high personal mentality so that they get forward (which typically means an attack duty), but then you need to then counter that with instructions like close down less so that they keep their shape in defense. Alternatively you could go with a lower personal mentality (typically a support duty) to get them to play more disciplined in defense, but then you've got to use PIs like get further forward, risky passes, or increasing passing length to get them to play the ball forward aggressively in attack.

As you can see it's a lot of work and tweaking to build this sort of low block bottom heavy formation, which I think contributes to the feelings that FM doesn't really support that playstyle/tactic. It can. It's just a lot of work and really requires a deep understanding of how all the various instructions work and counteract one another.

This post has already turned into a book, so I'll leave it there. And I could write a lot more on the topic as I've completed ignored line settings, pressing, tempo, and passing length which all are hugely influential. But I tend to be long winded and you said mentality was your big issue, so I tried to limit myself to just that.

If you have a specific idea for a tactic in mind, I would be happy to assist more.

This is very nicely explained. I think it is very difficult for new players or even people like me who have played this game for a while to really understand the mentalities. I usually do best when choosing a balanced mentality and I think it has to do because it is the most "clean slate" you will get. Nothing else is really adjusted and you can then use the duties or the team instructions to tailor it more. If you go Attacking, it will add so much to passing, tempo, mixing up the defenders and attacking players passing styles, etc. that one could easily get lost if the tactic does not work.

This is the same problem I have with tactics when I see 20 instructions. I am sure it works. I am sure they tried it. I would have no clue why and how to fix a problem, which is then my problem as I cannot react when something goes wrong.

A while ago, Cleon had posted such a simple tactic, I dont remember if it was possession or counter but there was one team instruction. That's it. The rest was done via positioning, roles, duties, and the mentality.

I think one could just go and put a 4231 and then choose attacking and you may already have a good enough attacking style. You would just need to tweak it after. Or, you go balanced and then choose the duties and who will attack to get a feeling of more visible control.

10 years later, still learning... but thank you for above. It puts things into perspective.

kingjericho · November 5, 2021

21 hours ago, fc.cadoni said:

As far I understand, player follow first TI, then PI and last PPM. Maybe I am wrong into this.

21 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

PPMs are first I think

PPMs will always be used by a player regardless of the other instructions. TI/PI can limit or encourage PPM less or more (e.g. PPM take long shots vs TI work ball into box)

fc.cadoni · November 5, 2021

53 minutes ago, kingjericho said:

PPMs will always be used by a player regardless of the other instructions. TI/PI can limit or encourage PPM less or more (e.g. PPM take long shots vs TI work ball into box)

Yeah, that's why I am trying to not have players with traits.

Lordluap · November 5, 2021

I play a 4141 with Attacking, High Def Line and LOE set. Play Through The Middle (essential I feel for Counter Attacking - a la Klopp era Dortmund) and Counter Press and Counter selected. Closing Down Much More and Get Stuck In. We have maybe 40% possession but fly forward when we get the ball and score bucketloads.