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[FM2022 BETA] Positive team mentality + Support duty = ...Very Attacking individual mentality?!


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2 minutes ago, kandersson said:

This is disappointing on so many levels.

Why?

Apart from the fact they didn't communicate it, I don't see what's disappointing about it if they thought it needed change

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20 minutes ago, kandersson said:

This is disappointing on so many levels.

Why? It's not a bug. So should not really be disappointing.

The game is moving in a right direction where tactics are made up of logical combinations of roles and duties. Gone are the days in FM18 where you could build a successful tactic with all support duties. Those made little sense. And shouldn't really work with current ME. You just wouldn't have any penetration in the final third.

You will need a good combination of conservative and aggressive roles. Also seeing a playmaker with attacking or very attacking individual mentality is not such a bad thing. I know it takes a bit to get mind around but you have to remember that mentality = risk taking so it makes sense to have your False 9 or playmaker with highest level risk taking. 

Edited by crusadertsar
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If you ask me they should not even be showing individual mentality. Should just be hidden. Right now it confuses more people than helps. Particularly those new to the game. In the end all you need is a good balance of attack, support and defend duties to make a balanced tactic. 

Individual mentality should go the way that fluidity of old went. 

Edited by crusadertsar
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59 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

The game is moving in a right direction where tactics are made up of logical combinations of roles and duties. Gone are the days in FM18 where you could build a successful tactic with all support duties. Those made little sense. And shouldn't really work with current ME. You just wouldn't have any penetration in the final third.

Penetration can be accomplished through PPMs and PIs. Telling a support duty player to get further forward will still give you penetrating runs.

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

Also seeing a playmaker with attacking or very attacking individual mentality is not such a bad thing. I know it takes a bit to get mind around but you have to remember that mentality = risk taking so it makes sense to have your False 9 or playmaker with highest level risk taking. 

I'm not sure I agree with your point regarding playmakers needing to be the most risk taking player. I consider Mikel Arteta in Arsene Wenger's 4-1-4-1 system at the beginning of 2014-15 as that sides playmaker, but he was by no means the player taking the most risk. He dictated possession, kept the team organised and distributed play like a quarter-back to allow Ozil, Sanchez, Wilshere and Ramsey to play to their natural offensive skillsets.

In some systems, you would want your playmaker to take a lot of risks (perhaps a more Mourinho style system - think Sneijder at Inter, with a defensive double pivot behind him), but you wouldn't always want your ball magnet to be so carefree and offensive with the ball.

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1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

Why? It's not a bug. So should not really be disappointing.

The game is moving in a right direction where tactics are made up of logical combinations of roles and duties. Gone are the days in FM18 where you could build a successful tactic with all support duties. Those made little sense. And shouldn't really work with current ME. You just wouldn't have any penetration in the final third.

You will need a good combination of conservative and aggressive roles. Also seeing a playmaker with attacking or very attacking individual mentality is not such a bad thing. I know it takes a bit to get mind around but you have to remember that mentality = risk taking so it makes sense to have your False 9 or playmaker with highest level risk taking. 

i have been playing fm22 using fm21 tactics creator to see what individual player mentalities are in relation to my team mentality (something a number of us were doing until today's news) and all support systems work just fine. in fact, it's created some excellent football. 

with an attacking tean mentality all my players, except for a dm and cd x2, are on support duties. and i had assumed at the time that this meant everyone was on positive individual mentalities with balanced mentalities for my dm + cd x2 (all on defensive duties). at leaset that's what fm21 showed.

these mentalities matter because it's a way for me to create compact systems that can penetrate sides depending on if i'm using a 2-3-5 or 3-2-5 in the attacking phases.  because using these player mentalities allows me to create two tight banks of four to defend with a 4-1-4-1 shape.  all of which can be accomplished in a 433 setup on attacking mentality with support duties.  this allowed for a cohesive system where player mentalities are balanced at their lowest and positive at their highest.  that's the type of football i've been chasing and able to play for the last few years of fm with team fluidity options being removed.

it's a player mentality based fm philosophy that @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! has championed and written extensively about.  it's why we have this thread to begin with.

 

now we're being told that the individual mentality of wingers within a positive team mentality system have gone from positive player mentalities for a player on support duty, to very attacking player mentalities.

this is a two level increase in acceptable risk for such a player in fm22 compared to fm21.  and means for some people, such as myself, that we have to approach tactical creation from a different perspective now. it's a subtle yet important change to fm that i don't think was acknowledged before today.

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3 hours ago, CARRERA said:

yeah, I've seen that post as well. I dont know man, SI should announce changes around tactical creation even if its just of cosmetic nature. And its very low hanging fruits as well.

Which post?

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14 minutes ago, Br3nB said:

Which post?

4 hours ago, Jack Joyce said:

To clarify - this is intentional, not a bug.

The player mentality tells you only a very small part of how a player/role will operate, generally it's best to try them out on the pitch and see how they feel and let us know if you're seeing any negative trends.

Cheers,
Jack

 

Edited by CARRERA
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10 hours ago, Br3nB said:

So if its not a bug… this changes everything in regards to creating a tactic!

yes, and things have escalated rather quickly.  within a day we've gone from being notified that it's not a bug, to now being told (in that same official fm thread) that player mentality doesn't matter so SI will probably remove it anyways.

but i agree with you that this marks a fundamental shift in tactic creation.

 

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2 hours ago, arsenal3459 said:

  within a day we've gone from being notified that it's not a bug, to now being told (in that same official fm thread) that player mentality doesn't matter so SI will probably remove it anyways.

You're exaggerating now. He didn't say it doesn't matter, he said it's not the only thing that comes into play and when he talked about removing it, he didn't mean that it won't be in the game anymore just that you won't be able to see it just like how shape was reworked

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  • 1 month later...

There is no way that its deliberate from SI… some of the same roles are more attacking on positive than attacking… makes no sense whatsoever.

The fact nobody can come out and explain it once and for all says it all for me, its a bug.

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On 15/01/2022 at 05:47, Br3nB said:

There is no way that its deliberate from SI… some of the same roles are more attacking on positive than attacking… makes no sense whatsoever.

The fact nobody can come out and explain it once and for all says it all for me, its a bug.

This is 100% deliberate, its not a bug. For too long people have been too focused on individual mentalities, there is much more to how a role plays than individual mentality. Its been over-rated for a while now. The earlier people come to terms with it the better. And its about time too.  How do you explain the difference between very attacking and attacking mentality for a winger? Does one never defend and the other does? Actually they both do, depending on how you've set up the team instructions. I reckon this is the last edition where we see the individual mentality label in the game.


And the post above you quoting Jack has explained why its not a bug

 

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В 15.01.2022 в 00:47, Br3nB сказал:

There is no way that its deliberate from SI… some of the same roles are more attacking on positive than attacking… makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Personally, I've always been confused by individual mentality of players in purple FMs. Especially DLF and F9 which were careful, and IF which always insanely attacking
Finally in FM22 I don't see a reason to check them at all! 

Fresh example on screenshot - AM(a) which always played higher, moves deeper in FM22 to support possession (no PPM for this) and this looks very cool. Some things rethinked by SI and you can use it without understanding how exactly mentality works. Roles understanding is enough and this is right

image.png.0ffabc76ab1c046129e67f282604d1f7.png

 

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1 hour ago, Novem9 said:

Personally, I've always been confused by individual mentality of players in purple FMs. Especially DLF and F9 which were careful, and IF which always insanely attacking
Finally in FM22 I don't see a reason to check them at all! 

Fresh example on screenshot - AM(a) which always played higher, moves deeper in FM22 to support possession (no PPM for this) and this looks very cool. Some things rethinked by SI and you can use it without understanding how exactly mentality works. Roles understanding is enough and this is right

image.png.0ffabc76ab1c046129e67f282604d1f7.png

 

Exactly! Roles, traits and individual instructions seem to be more important than ever before in FM22. I love it. I try not to look at individual mentality either and I like it more that way. Crafting tactics has gotten more intuitive too.

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14 小时前, Novem9说:

Personally, I've always been confused by individual mentality of players in purple FMs. Especially DLF and F9 which were careful, and IF which always insanely attacking
Finally in FM22 I don't see a reason to check them at all! 

Fresh example on screenshot - AM(a) which always played higher, moves deeper in FM22 to support possession (no PPM for this) and this looks very cool. Some things rethinked by SI and you can use it without understanding how exactly mentality works. Roles understanding is enough and this is right

image.png.0ffabc76ab1c046129e67f282604d1f7.png

 

That's cool!

BTW,You can read this post (link here) by @Rashidi

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  • 1 month later...
On 18/01/2022 at 08:46, Rashidi said:

This is 100% deliberate, its not a bug.

Please, help me explain this:

DWsu on Balanced Mentality = Attacking

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WMsu on Balanced Mentality = Attacking

8j5hpAs.png

IFat on on Balanced Mentality = Attacking

dMC2sH4.png

How can a Defensive Winger on Support operate on the same Mentality as an Inside Forward on Attack? This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

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2 hours ago, Zemahh said:

How can a Defensive Winger on Support operate on the same Mentality as an Inside Forward on Attack? This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Out of curiosity, why does it matter what it says there when you’ll watch the games yourself and figure out the movements anyway?

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39 minutes ago, DarJ said:

Out of curiosity, why does it matter what it says there when you’ll watch the games yourself and figure out the movements anyway?

You’re right, I don’t even pay mind to it now. They all label the player mentality as attacking but in the match engine they do not act the same way so it’s a pointless distraction. 

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2 hours ago, DarJ said:

Out of curiosity, why does it matter what it says there when you’ll watch the games yourself and figure out the movements anyway?

Because, at the very least, it's misleading. DWsu and IFat don't behave in any sort of a similar way, so their Mentalities shouldn't be the same at all. And they weren't until FM22, when it all apparently no longer matters.

If you hoover over a player's Mentality, you still see this description:

G4rT5HW.png

Clearly understanding your player's "attitude on the pitch" is paramount to tactic creation, it's something gurus like O-zil, Herne and others have been writing about extensively in the past. So what has changed? If we should just be "watching games" instead, as @Jack Joyce mentioned in one of his posts quoted above, why not just remove the labels altogether?

Something is off here, I don't believe this is by design at all. I would maybe get it if the AM-strata players were Attacking by default, since they're Attacking Midfielders after all, but normal midfielders are affected too. How does one explain a Defensive Winger on Support having the same Mentality as an Inside Forward on Attack, arguably the most aggressive wide forward role?

Edited by Zemahh
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