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[FM2022 BETA] Positive team mentality + Support duty = ...Very Attacking individual mentality?!


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Hey, good morning everybody. Having finally cracked and upgraded from my beloved FM 2018 due to the database being too far behind, I am already experiencing logical issue with the FM 2022 tactics creator.

Is anybody else noticing extremely disjointed individual mentalities for players in the AM/ST strata in the FM 2022 BETA?

I've just set up - what should be - a fairly well-balanced, positive 4-2-3-1 shape for Arsenal.


image.png.d14988ca35014447e6865f02c0e30b14.png


However, somehow, the FM 2022 Tactics Creator is determining that a positive team mentality plus a support duty should result in a very attacking individual mentality for all players in the AM and ST strata.


image.png.151f098cea09ca372a6756791fe9f75a.png


image.png.d97c7c0d27c52d960ebcbe1a52cff68a.png


image.png.91dfbafa1736ca42c874cc1090fa98fc.png


As a result, the mentality distribution is incredibly disjointed:
 

                 Very Attacking
Very Attacking   Very Attacking   Very Attacking
             Positive      Cautious
Positive     Cautious      Cautious     Positive
                    Positive


Players in midfield and defensive stratas look fine.

For the sake of comparison, the same system in the FM2021 (demo) Tactics Creator gives a far more balanced and logical individual mentality distribution.


image.png.37539b147a6fd432b79b698f1c477baf.png

 

               Balanced
Positive       Positive       Positive
          Positive  Cautious
Positive  Cautious  Cautious  Positive
               Positive 


I haven't got as far as to play any games yet, so cannot comment as to whether it's just an interface issue or the tactics creator is genuinely churning out these mentalities. Or maybe I am badly missing some kind of logic, or have a strange instruction ticked.

I'll play a few games and see how it is today. Hopefully can be resolved before the main release! :)

Edited by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!
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2 hours ago, craiigman said:

Hi mate, I believe someone has raised this in the general feedback thread, and possibly raised a bug report. From the replies it's believed to be a UI issue but I don't know for sure.

Anecdotally, I'm noticing my W(S) getting in the box as much as my IF(A) which would suggest they're operating on similar mentalities.

Tends to be much further forward than I'd expect based on previous games, so I'd be surprised if it's merely cosmetic but could be wrong. 

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28 minutes ago, dannyfc said:

Anecdotally, I'm noticing my W(S) getting in the box as much as my IF(A) which would suggest they're operating on similar mentalities.

Tends to be much further forward than I'd expect based on previous games, so I'd be surprised if it's merely cosmetic but could be wrong. 

Worth raising as bug I would say

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10 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

But on the upside, we finally have a False 9 on a higher mentality than "Balanced". In my current formation with False 9 the role is playing wonderfully because he is on "Attacking" individual mentality. I rather they not change that. It was so frustrating never being able to get him to any mentality higher than balanced and the role suffered as a result. But I agree seeing AMC (S) on very attacking individual mentality kind of goes against the point of the role.

Can't they add a feature where we can switch between mentalities for each role? 

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I noticed it off the bat, however observing my side play 4231 in matches I can confirm it is cosmetic.

I play all matches on full 90 minute highlights and all the attacking players are taking up the positions I would expect.

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15 hours ago, arsenal3459 said:

should we rely on this old player mentality calculator until the bug fix?

or what are y'all doing to understand player mentality?

guess i could use fm21 to double check.

also, it's great to see you on the newest fm @Ö-zil to the Arsenal.

I don’t think so. Right now I’m using a Positive team mentality and my WM on support have a Very Attacking individual mentality. I haven’t quite figured the whole thing out.

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33 minutes ago, Lasson said:

I don’t think so. Right now I’m using a Positive team mentality and my WM on support have a Very Attacking individual mentality. I haven’t quite figured the whole thing out.

Im playing on Attacking team mentality and my WM(s) and False 9 all have "Attacking" individual mentality. Cant complain though because the movement they create is great. Especially by the much more decisive False 9. He is acting like a whole new role somewhere between Trequartista(A) and Complete Forward (S). Really great so hope they don't "fix" that part :lol:

Edited by crusadertsar
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44 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Im playing on Attacking team mentality and my WM(s) and False 9 all have "Attacking" individual mentality. Cant complain though because the movement they create is great. Especially by the much more decisive False 9. He is acting like a whole new role somewhere between Trequartista(A) and Complete Forward (S). Really great so hope they don't "fix" that part :lol:

Them why on earth is my WM(s) on Very Attacking? That makes no sense. Even as a DW(s), he’s on Very Attacking :confused:

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13 minutes ago, Lasson said:

Them why on earth is my WM(s) on Very Attacking? That makes no sense. Even as a DW(s), he’s on Very Attacking :confused:

Dont know. Doesnt makes sense to me either why on Attacking team mentality they are less attacking.  But it is what it is. Maybe you should try switching to Attacking team mentality and see how your forwards play. Because it could be just an interface error. 

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3 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yea, I've played enough now to be pretty certain it's an interface issue rather than an actual bug in the tactics creator :thup:

does this mean no new Ozil guide?

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20 hours ago, endadc said:

does this mean no new Ozil guide?

 Am re-learning the game myself right now. A lot has changed since FM 2018! :lol: Can't get my team pressing well right now. Opposition centrebacks are putting up 120+ passes per game just side-to-side but my attackers aren't taking the ball off them.

Edited by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!
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5 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 Am re-learning the game myself right now. A lot has changed since FM 2018! :lol: Can't get my team pressing well right now. Opposition centrebacks are putting up 120+ passes per game just side-to-side but my attackers aren't taking the ball off them.

well i hope you do one, some of the most fun doing a save ever. 

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1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 Am re-learning the game myself right now. A lot has changed since FM 2018! :lol: Can't get my team pressing well right now. Opposition centrebacks are putting up 120+ passes per game just side-to-side but my attackers aren't taking the ball off them.

Really enjoyed your FM18 thread, and looking forward to seeing what you do in this year's game!

I believe the centre back issue has been raised as a potential bug (I think so, anyway). A lot of people have noticed that centre backs often have the highest number of passes, and best pass completion, of anybody on the pitch. Hopefully it'll be addressed when the main game is released.

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2 hours ago, ryandormer said:

Really enjoyed your FM18 thread, and looking forward to seeing what you do in this year's game!

I believe the centre back issue has been raised as a potential bug (I think so, anyway). A lot of people have noticed that centre backs often have the highest number of passes, and best pass completion, of anybody on the pitch. Hopefully it'll be addressed when the main game is released.


Yea, hope so. Makes some of the games almost unwatchable.

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14 hours ago, RVL76 said:

I assume they are playing 'wrongly' and this isn't just a labelling issue? 


No, fortunately it's not an issue in the match engine otherwise the game would be unplayable. It's more of an inconvenience when putting a tactic together and you want to see how your combination of team mentality, role, duty and team instructions effect the individual mentality of your attackers. The obvious workaround is to plug your tactical set up into the FM2021 tactics creator, or even build your tactic there and then plug it into FM2022. 

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On 09/11/2021 at 10:04, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Disappointed to see that this has not been fixed :confused:

Yes, after flagging it myself on the beta, it was one of the first things i looked at when i loaded my first save. I was really pissed off when i saw it wasn't fixed. I don't know why either, because you are right, it is just cosmetic.

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How are people managing to work around this issue?

I don't have FM21 so can't load my tactics in the tactic creator on that version to see the mentalities without this issue. 

I'm trying to create a Sacchi inspired high pressing 442 but really struggling to select the correct rules/duties due to this.

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10 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

How are people managing to work around this issue?

I don't have FM21 so can't load my tactics in the tactic creator on that version to see the mentalities without this issue. 

I'm trying to create a Sacchi inspired high pressing 442 but really struggling to select the correct rules/duties due to this.


Try downloading the FM2021 demo? I have the demo but not the actual game.

Haha it's utterly ridiculous :lol:

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  • 2 weeks later...

There have been plenty of changes to attacking roles in the last two versions of football manager. In this version quite a few roles have higher underlying mentalities. The behaviour of roles isn't driven by mentality alone, its also driven by the nature of the role, the instructions in that role, the team instructions you use, the traits of the player.  A lot more is going into the behavior of individual roles instead of just mentality. These have always been by design.

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48 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

There have been plenty of changes to attacking roles in the last two versions of football manager. In this version quite a few roles have higher underlying mentalities.

So a Support duty Winger having a Very Attacking mentality is by design?

I don't see them behaving much differently either, so clearly their mentality hasn't actually changed that much (Positive in FM21 = Very Attacking in FM22).

Would be interested to see some examples of these "changes". If anything, with inside-cutting forwards refusing to cut inside, one could argue some roles got less attacking, not more.

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26 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

There have been plenty of changes to attacking roles in the last two versions of football manager. In this version quite a few roles have higher underlying mentalities. The behaviour of roles isn't driven by mentality alone, its also driven by the nature of the role, the instructions in that role, the team instructions you use, the traits of the player.  A lot more is going into the behavior of individual roles instead of just mentality. These have always been by design.


If there is an intended logic, I'm failing to see it.

  • With a Positive team mentality the Inverted Winger (Support), Attacking Midfielder (Support) and Deep-Lying Forward (Support) have higher individual mentality than the Inside Forward (Support) which would seem like the most attacking role.
  • The mentality for the Deep-Lying Forward (Support) actually decreases from Very Attacking to Attacking when you increase the team mentality to Attacking.
  • There also seems to be a massive individual mentality drop-off as players play in deeper stratas; doesn't make much sense - to me - in the context of modern football, where teams play so collectively.

Fortunately, it only seems to be an aesthetic issue in the Tactics Creator and not in the Match Engine.

 

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51 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Fortunately, it only seems to be an aesthetic issue in the Tactics Creator and not in the Match Engine.

At this moment, thats what I am inclined to as well. I don't place any importance to the individual mentality label at the moment,  and to be frank, its more enjoyable that way instead of busting my head thinking of why. I can guess whats happened but I am not at liberty to say much.

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16 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

To clarify - this is intentional, not a bug.

The player mentality tells you only a very small part of how a player/role will operate, generally it's best to try them out on the pitch and see how they feel and let us know if you're seeing any negative trends.

Cheers,
Jack

Apparently it's not a bug

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