Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II passes away. 21st April 1926 - 8th September 2022.

[Weezer]

17 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

Does your right to do a Nazi salute in satire rank above or below your right to shout you're a nounce at Prince Andrew? 

I don’t know, what’s better, lettuce or oranges?

[InigoPatinkin]

20 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

You're saying that any gesture is fair game and it doesn't matter if people find it upsetting or offensive or triggering, I think this is a unpleasant and wrong! Goodness me, I'm giving my opinion here not some peer reviewed scientific paper. You've got big enough shoulders, just accept that some people don't agree with you.

I'm saying that you cannot ban people for making jokes at legitimate targets because people might misunderstand the joke and find it triggering.

See below;

19 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

Does your right to do a Nazi salute in satire rank above or below your right to shout you're a nounce at Prince Andrew? 

Do you think there is nobody in the world who wouldn't be legitimately triggered by mention of the word "nonce"? Does that mean nobody should be allowed to shout it at public events at someone who paid £12m to buy off someone accusing him? 

What about shouting "rapist" at... lets same some unnamed Madeiran-born footballer? Is that totally out of bounds because people would be legitimately triggered by it? 

You cannot ban people for jokes that upset people who are not the target of said joke when the target of the joke is someone who has done something which is the issue triggering the person to begin with. Nobody is upset by people making fun of Nazi's (well, I guess Nazi's might be), they'd at best be triggered by someone parodying Nazi's because of actual fascists... for this reason making fun of Nazi's kind of has to be fair game. 

20 minutes ago, Weezer said:

We do if they’re throwing nazi salutes

We shouldn't be banning people from anything for parodying Nazi's though. People parody the Nazi salute precisely because it is a ridiculous physical thing for any normal person to do. When the joke is obviously directed at a target who is clearly a reasonable target (and a royal family with links to fascism clearly is) banning it because you don't find it funny is essentially just protecting the target. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by InigoPatinkin

[InigoPatinkin]

Just now, Harryseaess said:

Yet I've been robbed of the ability to do this because they've randomly chosen the United game to be postponed.

it's United and Leeds, there's absolutely nothing random about it  same reason Liverpool/Chelsea was. 

[Harryseaess]

Just now, InigoPatinkin said:

it's United and Leeds, there's absolutely nothing random about it  same reason Liverpool/Chelsea was. 

Yeah because all of the police in the country are tied up with the funeral the day after...

[Coulthard's Jaw]

10 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

What about shouting "rapist" at... lets same some unnamed Madeiran-born footballer? Is that out of bounds because people would be triggered by it? 

I've read quite a few people (mainly women) say that using rape and sexual assault for football banter and the like is a really bad idea and you shouldn't do it. These things are complicated!

[Lucas]

Something will always upset someone. It's about intent for me. For something as universally bad as that I'd rather they weren't engaged or just told that's not funny rather than going down the road of punishment*

*Unless certain groups are specifically targeted. 

Will say though I don't really know much beyond the headline of the story to make much of a judgement other than the guy is obviously an idiot at best.

[Harryseaess]

I wonder where her main statue will be, considering Queen Victoria already has hers in the best place possible.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

10 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Something will always upset someone. It's about intent for me. For something as universally bad as that I'd rather they weren't engaged or just told that's not funny rather than going down the road of punishment*

Do think if the club had had a quiet word in his ear and told him to wind his neck in would have been a better approach than the letter they sent.

[Rob1981]

3 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

These things are complicated!

Not that complicated.  Don't do a premeditated ****ing Nazi salute in public when people are honouring the dead queen.  Of all the hills that Inigo's died on, this has got to be the weirdest.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Rob1981

[SouthCoastRed]

2 minutes ago, Harryseaess said:

I wonder where her main statue will be, considering Queen Victoria already has hers in the best place possible.

I was thinking that when they set off, perhaps they shift Vicky 60 feet to the left and have a double roundabout 

[themadsheep2001]

10 minutes ago, Harryseaess said:

Yeah because all of the police in the country are tied up with the funeral the day after...

Actually yes, they are going to be massively tied up. They already are with nearly a million extra people in London this week on top of regular duties. Of all the things getting called off, this is one of the few that makes genuine sense 

[InigoPatinkin]

13 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I've read quite a few people (mainly women) say that using rape and sexual assault for football banter and the like is a really bad idea and you shouldn't do it. These things are complicated!

These issues are complicated! Which is why legislation and football banning orders are terrible ways of dealing with stuff like this because those things don't deal with complexity well at all. You absolutely shouldn't just randomly shout rapist in the middle of a crowd of football fans at a rapist in 99.99% of circumstances, but slapping out banning orders on people for doing it is a terrible idea. The line on where holding people to account for things they did and disregard for the people around them isn't something that should be decided by a statute or a rule in a contract.  

13 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Something will always upset someone. It's about intent for me. For something as universally bad as that I'd rather they weren't engaged or just told that's not funny rather than going down the road of punishment*

*Unless certain groups are specifically targeted. 

Will say though I don't really know much beyond the headline of the story to make much of a judgement other than the guy is obviously an idiot at best.

When it comes of legal (or football clubs rules I suppose) intent is the important factor. It's much, much easier to identify when a target is unjust than when the collateral damage of a joke is "too great". What constitutes too great depends entirely on who you are, what your experiences are etc. and it's all very easy to say when you don't have the same experiences as someone else. There will inevitably be friction there, but the law/rulebook isn't the way to deal with those issues. 

Oh I'm sure it will come out he's a massive racist who just likes doing Nazi salutes at some point and wants an excuse  these things usually do.  

 

10 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Not that complicated.  Don't do a premeditated ****ing Nazi salute in public when people are honouring the dead queen.  Of all the hills that Inigo's died on, this has got to be the weirdest.

  I'll defend his legal right to do it, and your legal right to tell him he's an insensitive, unfunny bell end (which is a sentiment I currently share). 

Edited September 14, 2022 by InigoPatinkin

[Frankie]

Loving this procession music accompanied by Big Ben and cannon going off. Feels really foreshadowing.

Is Boris considering a coup?

[Harryseaess]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

Actually yes, they are going to be massively tied up. They already are with nearly a million extra people in London this week on top of regular duties. Of all the things getting called off, this is one of the few that makes genuine sense 

All games should be off or none.

[InigoPatinkin]

3 minutes ago, Harryseaess said:

All games should be off or none.

For fairness sakes, probably. But for the supporters and an entertainment (and money) point of view it makes sense to keep as many as you can going. People will have arranged travel etc. to these games and telling Bournemouth fans to get up to Newcastle and back for a 8pm kickoff on a Monday night sometime in February when you don't really have to is pretty ******. 

[Lucas]

35 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Do think if the club had had a quiet word in his ear and told him to wind his neck in would have been a better approach than the letter they sent.

Well the action shows how serious the offence was taken. 

Things in writing are taken much more seriously from a legal/moral/social point of view. 

But I don't really know that much about the incident other than the headline.

Only thing I didn't quite agree with the club saying was that some random (even if a fan) referencing them had somehow made the club guilty by association and that's why he got a ban.

Edit = To clarify, not really sure why the club felt they were guilty, not why he got a ban.

[themadsheep2001]

15 minutes ago, Harryseaess said:

All games should be off or none.

This is the path of least disruption to everyone, by some way. 

[Bigwig]

McDonald's is to close all of its UK restaurants on Monday 19 September, as a mark of respect to Queen Elizabeth II on the day of her funeral.

[SouthCoastRed]

2 minutes ago, Bigwig said:

McDonald's is to close all of its UK restaurants on Monday 19 September, as a mark of respect to Queen Elizabeth II on the day of her funeral.

Hell. Has. Frozen. Over 

[SouthCoastRed]

20 minutes ago, Frankie said:

Is Boris considering a coup?

For years tbh

[oche balboa]

3 minutes ago, Bigwig said:

McDonald's is to close all of its UK restaurants on Monday 19 September, as a mark of respect to Queen Elizabeth II on the day of her funeral.

I hope there is somewhere to get a takeaway on Monday 

[Bigwig]

Dominos are closed until after the ceremony at 12pm while McDonalds are opening at 5pm, so I guess burger eaters just need that extra mourning time. 

[Lucas]

At least they didn't extend the morning menu to 5pm.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

 

[InigoPatinkin]

What about Burger King? A Chicken Royale would be a fitting tribute lunch imo. 

[bermybhoy]

Apropos of nothing recent in the conversation, the banter today referring the the BBC as Mournhub is top notch.

[Barry Cartman]

47 minutes ago, Harryseaess said:

All games should be off or none.

 

40 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

For fairness sakes, probably. But for the supporters and an entertainment (and money) point of view it makes sense to keep as many as you can going. People will have arranged travel etc. to these games and telling Bournemouth fans to get up to Newcastle and back for a 8pm kickoff on a Monday night sometime in February when you don't really have to is pretty ******. 

Don't see why it would be fair to have all games off just because Utd and Leeds fans are complete twats to each other  

If Utd were playing someone like Brighton, the game would be on 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Barry Cartman

[Mr_Whippy]

Sum up Britain.

We love a ****ing queue.

 

[Jason the Yank]

 

[Vynal Seven]

1 minute ago, Mr_Whippy said:

Sum up Britain.

We love a ****ing queue.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CifRq2cIdXY/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=

[Weezer]

10 minutes ago, bermybhoy said:

Apropos of nothing recent in the conversation, the banter today referring the the BBC as Mournhub is top notch.

I feel like we’ve peaked now though, where do they go from here? We’ve had Diana, the Queen Mother and now the Queen. I don’t see where the country’s next orgy of mourning comes from? No other monarch is going on the inspire the same reverence as a 70 year reign from Lizzy.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Weezer

[SouthCoastRed]

4 minutes ago, Mr_Whippy said:

Sum up Britain.

We love a ****ing queue.

 

Be a huge surge now as everyone leaves The Mall and Whitehall

[oche balboa]

5 minutes ago, Mr_Whippy said:

Sum up Britain.

We love a ****ing queue.

 

I love the British People 

[InigoPatinkin]

7 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

Don't see why it would be fair to have all games off just because Utd and Leeds fans are complete twats to each other  

If Utd were playing someone like Brighton, the game would be on 

It would be fair to the teams in the sense that Man Utd, Leeds, Chelsea and Liverpool are going to have more congested schedules because they were unlucky to have their derby games fall on that weekend. Basically every club in the league has some game where they need more police presence than usual. 

[Bigwig]

Just now, Weezer said:

I feel like we’ve peaked now though, where do they go from here? We’ve had Diana, the Queen Mother and now the Queen. I don’t see where the countries next orgy of mourning comes from? No other monarch is going on the inspire the same reverence as a 70 year reign from Lizzy.

Judi Dench or Helen Mirren probably. 

[oche balboa]

1 minute ago, Weezer said:

I feel like we’ve peaked now though, where do they go from here? We’ve had Diana, the Queen Mother and now the Queen. I don’t see where the countries next orgy of mourning comes from? No other monarch is going on the inspire the same reverence as a 70 year reign from Lizzy.

We don't have many Queens/Kings dying. In 1952 there was 1 TV Channel, about 5 radio stations and just newspapers. Its the first time its happened in the digital age 

[oche balboa]

Poll of the monarchy a week after Diana died 

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/monarchy-poll-4-5-september-1997

[Weezer]

4 minutes ago, Bigwig said:

Judi Dench or Helen Mirren probably. 

I love them both but if they close Maccy D’s for Dame Judi Dench’s funeral I will be fuming  

Edited September 14, 2022 by Weezer

[Darren Moores Mum]

Should be more reverence for Attenborough when he goes than the Queen tbh.

[The_jagster]

1 hour ago, InigoPatinkin said:

I'm saying that you cannot ban people for making jokes at legitimate targets because people might misunderstand the joke and find it triggering.

See below;

Do you think there is nobody in the world who wouldn't be legitimately triggered by mention of the word "nonce"? Does that mean nobody should be allowed to shout it at public events at someone who paid £12m to buy off someone accusing him? 

What about shouting "rapist" at... lets same some unnamed Madeiran-born footballer? Is that totally out of bounds because people would be legitimately triggered by it? 

You cannot ban people for jokes that upset people who are not the target of said joke when the target of the joke is someone who has done something which is the issue triggering the person to begin with. Nobody is upset by people making fun of Nazi's (well, I guess Nazi's might be), they'd at best be triggered by someone parodying Nazi's because of actual fascists... for this reason making fun of Nazi's kind of has to be fair game. 

We shouldn't be banning people from anything for parodying Nazi's though. People parody the Nazi salute precisely because it is a ridiculous physical thing for any normal person to do. When the joke is obviously directed at a target who is clearly a reasonable target (and a royal family with links to fascism clearly is) banning it because you don't find it funny is essentially just protecting the target. 

Out of interest, do you think German law is wrong to ban the Nazi salute, no ironic context allowed?

 

I think there is a difference between a show or printed column where the satirical context is clear and an edgelord in a crowd where all kinds of people can't be expected to see the context, just a Nazi salute. Would you also defend the right of people to make ironically racist abuse and blackface under the justification of 'satire'?

 

There are actually all sorts of accusations you can't make against people which is why we have libel and slander as you well know. It's presumably why you have mentioned Madeira and not any names. You could protest an unconvicted Madeiran footballer playing for your club but on a podcast or in print you wouldn't be able to say it was because they are a rapist without redress.

[Rob1981]

Who is this woman on BBC News now?  Saw her the other day with the sound off, genuinely thought it was Teri Hatcher.

[InigoPatinkin]

Just now, The_jagster said:

Out of interest, do you think German law is wrong to ban the Nazi salute, no ironic context allowed?

I thought the German laws allowed for parody? There was that film about the u-boats a few years back (the **** take of Das Boot) and wikipedia tells me the law is "Subsection (1) shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes."  

Quote

I think there is a difference between a show or printed column where the satirical context is clear and an edgelord in a crowd where all kinds of people can't be expected to see the context, just a Nazi salute. Would you also defend the right of people to make ironically racist abuse and blackface under the justification of 'satire'?

Sure, and it's absolutely fair to be critical of a poor choice of content/time/place. I'd defend the legal right to parody those things, racists are clearly a deserving topic of mockery. I'd also defend your right to call it crass, thoughtless etc. if you felt that way about it.

Quote

There are actually all sorts of accusations you can't make against people which is why we have libel and slander as you well know. It's presumably why you have mentioned Madeira and not any names. You could protest an unconvicted Madeiran footballer playing for your club but on a podcast or in print you wouldn't be able to say it was because they are a rapist without redress.

Sure, but I don't think the legal ramifications are really that much of a discussion point are they? Plenty of authors have written entire books about the royal families links to the Nazi party. I don't think the nature of the argument at hand is changed by the fan shouting "Ronaldo you were accused of rape and paid a settlement to the accuser" either, it's just a lot less snappy. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

13 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

I'd also defend your right to call it crass, thoughtless etc. if you felt that way about it.

Doesn't feel like it.

[Heartwork]

Apparently even Don't Hug Me I'm Scared saw its release delayed, even though All4 is on demand. It probably won't air on Channel 4 until October anyway.

[InigoPatinkin]

6 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Doesn't feel like it.

If anyone tells you you can't call a joke **** I'll get 'em for you, no worries.

 

[The_jagster]

8 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

I thought the German laws allowed for parody? There was that film about the u-boats a few years back (the **** take of Das Boot) and wikipedia tells me the law is "Subsection (1) shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes."  

Sure, and it's absolutely fair to be critical of a poor choice of content/time/place. I'd defend the legal right to parody those things, racists are clearly a deserving topic of mockery. I'd also defend your right to call it crass, thoughtless etc. if you felt that way about it.

Sure, but I don't think the legal ramifications are really that much of a discussion point are they? Plenty of authors have written entire books about the royal families links to the Nazi party. I don't think the nature of the argument at hand is changed by the fan shouting "Ronaldo you were accused of rape and paid a settlement to the accuser" either, it's just a lot less snappy. 

On the second bolded bit I think it matters, because saying the royal family have historic links to the Nazis is different to making an offensive salute gesture. If two people in the crowd are pictured doing a Nazi salute there is no way of distinguishing if it's satire or Nazi support. There needs to be a forum for context before you can use context as justification.

Surely most of why yelling 'nonce' in a crowd isn't as legally fraught as the recorded or printed media is the practicality of proving you said it, that is was aimed at a given person etc rather than the freedom to yell unproven accusations about people.

[Rob1981]

Alex Jones talking to people in the queue ffs.  They've gone the full One Show.

[Lucas]

12 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

If anyone tells you you can't call a joke **** I'll get 'em for you, no worries.

 

Nobody bothered to tell me my morning / mourning joke was bad  

[Ackter]

How in the **** is someone stupid/crazy enough to queue for 5 miles to look at a box with a dead woman in it. Creepy as ****.

[Christmas]

Behavior of Rangers FC so tragically  predictable. 

And no, I don't think the fans should be prevented from singing the English anthem if they want, although I agree with the uefa rule re an 'official' performance. 

They club though are just so smug about taunting everyone else about it