Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II passes away. 21st April 1926 - 8th September 2022.

[oche balboa]

23 minutes ago, Christmas said:

I'm sorry but if you live in Aberdeen or Edinburgh then you have had this forced on you as normal life has been ruined. It took my mother 1h30 to do the 25 minute drive to my 98 year old grandmother on Sunday night, because of needless road closures that should only have been happening around Buckingham palace.

That may not be a conclusive argument against the closures happening - but it certainly is against the 'you shouldn't protest at a funeral' nonsense - the funeral / procession was right on everyone's doorsteps, to great inconvenience, over a prolonged period. That's the point. Doesn't matter if simpletons love it, it still deals with the 'dont protest here' authoritarian pish.

The Queen died in Scotland so this was going to happen. Accept it and move on it wont last you can still get out and about and everything is open. No one cares/expects you to pay your respects - You made your position clear. But really nothing as changed much, TV is returning to normal. Football is back being played in this country. You shouldn't protest at the funeral it makes you a bit of a scumbag and as bad as the Westboro Church tossers. Time and a Place 

[Bigwig]

Yeah that contract basically says that your entitled leave doesn’t include bank holidays so they’re trying it on.

What did they do for the additional day we got for the Jubilee?  Wasn’t that long ago. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

9 minutes ago, oche balboa said:

You shouldn't protest at the funeral it makes you a bit of a scumbag and as bad as the Westboro Church tossers. 

I mean

[Christmas]

1 minute ago, oche balboa said:

The Queen died in Scotland so this was going to happen. Accept it and move on it wont last you can still get out and about and everything is open. No one cares/expects you to pay your respects - You made your position clear. But really nothing as changed much, TV is returning to normal. Football is back being played in this country. You shouldn't protest at the funeral it makes you a bit of a scumbag and as bad as the Westboro Church tossers. Time and a Place 

I might as well copy and paste but how can 'the place' not be right in the severely disrupted centre of the place where people live? Totally different to Westboro or if people had gatecrashed the grounds of Balmoral or Buckingham Palace to protest. 

Public space =public space, and everything that comes with that. You can't (shouldn't be able to) pick and choose what public you hear, although obviously the police regrettably take a more Putinist view

[sc91]

3 minutes ago, SouthCoastRed said:

I don't disagree with any of that, my issue is with the claim that the royals forced all this on us, it isn't Charles' fault the FA are idiots

No, but it was in response to the 'admiration' of said royals. More saying that there is an element forced on people by the pedestal the royals are put on simply because they fell out of the right twit.

 

5 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

Football deciding to postpone matches isn't a forced change, as it was done within its own powers. Blaming the monarchy for it would be stupid, if someone wants to protest against the monarchy fine, do that with other justifications but using the postponements would be nonsense, protest against the FA.

Absolutely and I was not aiming towards the royals but more the reverence in which they're held by powers that be, and thus enforced onto the nation, more arguing that are enforced aspects that are inadvertently caused by the sheer existence of the monarchy. 

[Lucas]

10 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

I did wonder whether actually being the monarch would change opinion but I didn't expect it to be this stark

Charles has had it easy so far, a bit of sympathy bounce but he has spoken well and it helps to have a supportive media behind him at the moment. 

What will be a bit strange for me to bear is that if he is outspoken on some issues still, I might well find myself agreeing with him, while at the same time not really liking him taking a political stance  

[TM]

if you want to protest, pick the coronation whenever that happens?

the problem is "he's not my king" so that's the right place, not one when he's burying his mother

[SouthCoastRed]

2 minutes ago, sc91 said:

No, but it was in response to the 'admiration' of said royals. More saying that there is an element forced on people by the pedestal the royals are put on simply because they fell out of the right twit.

I think it was more in response to a misguided view of what public opinion would be. I don’t think they called them off to suck up to Charles, rather they stupidly thought it would be ‘for the best’

 

9 minutes ago, Christmas said:

but yes the Royal family absolutely did choose and want street parades and long national mourning periods.

We both have no way of knowing this or agreeing about it, which makes this argument pointless, but I bet they didn’t, I bet they’d much rather it was much more private so they could grieve privately, but agreed to everything from a sense of duty.

It ****ing hurts to lose your mother, I hope you don’t discover that for a long time. 

[Christmas]

13 minutes ago, SouthCoastRed said:

 

It ****ing hurts to lose your mother, I hope you don’t discover that for a long time. 

Sad you've gone for the high school debate option of ignoring comment for some kind of personal non sequitur. 

Just as irrelevant as your comment but I lost my father suddenly in my teens. I imagine it's similar. Queen was 96.

Are we allowed to discuss on equal footing again or do you have some other pointless issue to raise? Obviously we don't need to keep going and I'm boring myself banging my head against the UK smallminded wall but I can't stand that type of attempted faux mic drop

You say we have no way of knowing whether what I've said is true, despite the fact its been the subject of endless articles over the last decade which mention clearly the queen's input - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_London_Bridge

I'm quite convinced that protesting during a funeral procession isn't a pleasant time to do it form the mourner's perspective. I'm convinced that someone who travels out of their way to gatecrash a private ceremony is in the wrong. 

I'm yet to be convinced that someone going into their own local town centre to be hit with massive shutdowns and nonces and nonce protectors marching about can be said to be in the wrong place to protest. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Christmas

[Tony7]

10 hours ago, Garethjohn79 said:

Watch channel 183, 00:10 tonight or 21:00 tomorrow, ''Til Death Us Do Part'' to see where some from your brother's generation have got their ideas from, even in the 60's Alf Garnett's views were seen as ridiculous but there are some still now who swear by his view, they will be propping up a bar somewhere.

I think it's the first time it's been repeated in decades, none of the mainstream broadcasters would touch it with a bargepole today and even with the cuts and bleeps it's quite shocking. Just think the BBC had Jim Davidson as it's big Saturday night star only 25 years ago. He was the equivalent of Ant & Dec today.

Thank you I will watch it tonight. I used to watch in sickness and in health and Jim Davidson but don't find him funny now and can see how somethings coukd say then can't say now. I think people need reeducating problem is many have a view in their head and won't change they just believe they are right 

[Crispypaul]

I don't know why "subjects" keeps getting raised considering British citizens have not been referred to such since the passing of the British Nationality Act in the early 1980s.

[Rob1981]

This thread is moving too fast for me, but are we seriously saying people should be allowed to protest in Edinburgh because of the traffic congestion? So not because they disagree with the centuries-old institution, but because they can’t get through to Oddbins?   

[The_jagster]

13 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Charles has had it easy so far, a bit of sympathy bounce but he has spoken well and it helps to have a supportive media behind him at the moment. 

What will be a bit strange for me to bear is that if he is outspoken on some issues still, I might well find myself agreeing with him, while at the same time not really liking him taking a political stance  

Apart from the homeopathy quackery

[Lucas]

2 minutes ago, Crispypaul said:

I don't know why "subjects" keeps getting raised considering British citizens have not been referred to such since the passing of the British Nationality Act in the early 1980s.

I don't know, pretty weird for those at the Accession council to just not actually question anything and wave it through as a mere formality. I mean, that's the very definition of subjects. 

A lot of the pomp and circumstance with all these ceremonies have a lot of quite hideously outdated stuff in them. Though it is fascinating to witness from a constitutional point of view, probably won't get many more chances to witness an actual change of Head of State. 

Until we end up being able to vote for one of course. Something a lot of monarchists seem to want, to have some sort of say which member of the Royal Family should be monarch  

[pearcey_90]

30 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Amazing what a few hand shakes and a couple of speeches on TV can do. Why the Tories still thrive higher in the polling then they should be.

[Christmas]

2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

This thread is moving too fast for me, but are we seriously saying people should be allowed to protest in Edinburgh because of the traffic congestion? So not because they disagree with the centuries-old institution, but because they can’t get through to Oddbins?   

No, but because the 'right place to protest' is outside their front door

[Crispypaul]

4 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

Apart from the homeopathy quackery

Homeopathy is really big in Germany strangely - must be where he gets it from!

[Coulthard's Jaw]

13 minutes ago, Lucas said:

A lot of the pomp and circumstance with all these ceremonies have a lot of quite hideously outdated stuff in them. Though it is fascinating to witness from a constitutional point of view, probably won't get many more chances to witness an actual change of Head of State. 

I'm aiming to outlive Charles. William might be a stretch though  

[Frankie]

Are people (well one person) complaining about road closures?

I've travelled around Edinburgh absolutely fine in recent days by car, by public transport, by walking and by cycling. It's not ideal when areas in the city are closed (it also happens for the festival and other events several times a year) but it's far from the end of the world and it's mainly central areas that are affected. The same areas that usually have the best public transport service for the rest of the time compared to us from the sticks.  

As for protesting, well that's something we shouldn't take for granted and I'm uncomfortable when people's rights are questioned. However, there's a time and a place so none of us should be surprised that one or two morons think shouting/displaying obscenities will be permitted when thousands more are there to peacefully pay their respects. It's only a literal few so I'd suggest they're best ignored rather than arrested or violence applied but I can understand why the police removed them. I'd imagine the same would happen if many similar situations so it's hardly a pro-Monarchy statement....

There's something very unsettling about the last few days but I will also admit to finding much of it fascinating - from all the traditional (archaic and outdated?) ceremonies to huge numbers of people wanting to file past the coffin of someone they never met. I've found the reaction especially interesting from a Scottish perspective. 

Ultimately, we'll all move on in week or so's time back into our preferred prejudices and biases. For the time being, I'll enjoy something different happening.

[Christmas]

3 minutes ago, Frankie said:

Are people (well one person) complaining about road closures?

As for protesting, well that's something we shouldn't take for granted and I'm uncomfortable when people's rights are questioned. However, there's a time and a place so none of us should be surprised that one or two morons think shouting/displaying obscenities will be permitted when thousands more are there to peacefully pay their respects. It's only a literal few so I'd suggest they're best ignored rather than arrested or violence applied but I can understand why the police removed them. I'd imagine the same would happen if many similar situations so it's hardly a pro-Monarchy statement....

 

No - just saying that road closures on your doorstep invalidate the 'wrong place' argument against protests, especially seeing as I've seen more arrests for non-obscenity protests, than the one singular sign with the F word on it.

[Gazza D]

41 minutes ago, profii said:

1. Your employer can make you take holiday if they give you notice, for 1 day of, they have to give 2 days notice, so they can get away with that
2. Gricehead is right about the wording of the contract which you have provided, it's not perfectly clear but I would read that as you get your 25 days + bank holidays, next Monday is now a bank holiday, so you dont need to use any of your 25 day up

 

you are getting a free day, raise it with your management.

I read it as public holidays are exclusive of my leave so they can do what they like.

I have just emailed them asking if having people go unpaid is really for the best with the current cost of living crisis, and would ot not infact be better to allow people to work that day if they prefer, whether that be at home or in the office.

[oche balboa]

10 minutes ago, Christmas said:

No, but because the 'right place to protest' is outside their front door

If people like yourself want a Anti-royals/Pro-Republic demonstration and to call Royal Family whatever you want then you should do it say in 3-4 weeks time when the Queen is buried and people have moved on. 

 

You not going to get support during this time and its a form of attention seeking. 

[TM]

I don't know why people are going on about Andrew anyway, was watching something on the news yesterday (where the newsreader was looking awkwardly at the person) saying that once the state funeral is finished, Andrew will be removed from public life for the monarchy for good

don't think anyone will disagree that has to happen either

Edited September 13, 2022 by TM

[Lucas]

2 minutes ago, TM said:

Andrew will be removed from public life for the monarchy for good

Except he won't really, if he lives long enough. 

If we go through this again when Charles dies, Andrew isn't going to make an appearance then either? Really?

[Christmas]

2 minutes ago, oche balboa said:

If people like yourself want a Anti-royals/Pro-Republic demonstration and to call Royal Family whatever you want then you should do it say in 3-4 weeks time when the Queen is buried and people have moved on. 

You not going to get support during this time and its a form of attention seeking. 

That's it Ochy - only permit protests where no-one can see them. How do Patel's boots taste? What if your man hauled away in Edinburgh had just had blank paper?

There is actually massive support for protests in wider society, as shown by all kinds of polls and supports, even if not a full clear majority one way or the other. It isn't surprising that support isn't overwhelmingly present among those crowding to see a car that may or may not have a dead royal in it, or amongst you, a parochial tory.

[SouthCoastRed]

10 minutes ago, Christmas said:

I'm yet to be convinced that someone going into their own local town centre to be hit with massive shutdowns and nonces and nonce protectors marching about can be said to be in the wrong place to protest. 

 

11 minutes ago, Christmas said:

I'm boring myself banging my head against the UK smallminded wall but I can't stand that type of attempted faux mic drop

The rest of your post is very good, but then you do exactly what you accuse me of by deciding that anyone who doesn’t agree with you is smallminded, and everything being done this week is for the benefit of ‘nonce protectors’

Again, I haven’t decried any of the protest viability or the constitution right to do it, it’s not the best of times or locations imo, but each to their own, and from your own linked article The plan was updated three times a year through a meeting involving government department officials, the police, and broadcasters.

No mention of monarch involvement. Anyway you and I don’t agree and we’re hijacking the thread, I suggest we leave it there, as we both think we’re right, and one isn’t convincing the other in any way
 

But just one last bit for my ‘attempted mic drop’  there you are sadly wrong, I do genuinely hope your mother leads a long and active life, mine did, but it’s still painful to lose them when the time comes, whether they are 46, 66 or 96

 

[Darren Moores Mum]

It's not just about a funeral that's happening right now though, is it? Simultaneously to what is happening in Scotland we have proclamation ceremonies across the UK that makes Charles our new 'Liege Lord'. This didn't stop for a period of grieving/mourning, therefore it's fair to expect people wouldn't stop being against that principle, especially when it is so open and blatant at this time. The whole point of "The Queen is dead, long live the King" is that this **** doesn't stop.

Edited September 13, 2022 by ginnybob

[profii]

6 minutes ago, Gazza D said:

I read it as public holidays are exclusive of my leave so they can do what they like.

I have just emailed them asking if having people go unpaid is really for the best with the current cost of living crisis, and would ot not infact be better to allow people to work that day if they prefer, whether that be at home or in the office.

next monday is a public holiday as per the government announcement

therefore it is not part of your 25 day allowance and they need to let you have it off

stand your ground, its not about the public living crisis, its about them honouring the legal contract they agreed to when they employed you. They shouldnt even be asking people to WFH.

[Frankie]

Just now, Christmas said:

No - just saying that road closures on your doorstep invalidate the 'wrong place' argument against protests, especially seeing as I've seen more arrests for non-obscenity protests, than the one singular sign with the F word on it.

There are protest marches fairly regularly in Edinburgh and roads are closed to facilitate. Sometimes I'll agree with these events, sometimes not.

It's just life and we get on with it. I don't see the need to complain then or think I'll use the opportunity to protest about something else.

Of course these ceremonies are the wrong place for protests - at least the kind of moronic ones we've seen in the last day or two. But thankfully there have only been a tiny number amongst hundreds of thousands of people so it's not a big problem. If a group wanted to organise something more formal then I'm sure they could have been accommodated somewhere locally but I suspect such groups are aware of the context.

[Peter G]

How are the people already queuing going to be able to, relieve themselves?

Will someone keep their place for them? 

[oche balboa]

2 minutes ago, Christmas said:

That's it Ochy - only permit protests where no-one can see them. How do Patel's boots taste? What if your man hauled away in Edinburgh had just had blank paper?

There is actually massive support for protests in wider society, as shown by all kinds of polls and supports, even if not a full clear majority one way or the other. It isn't surprising that support isn't overwhelmingly present among those crowding to see a car that may or may not have a dead royal in it, or amongst you, a parochial tory.

I support Protests, Not during this bit. People dont want to see it right now get over it. There are ample time to do a protest/support cause in the future 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

9 minutes ago, Peter G said:

How are the people already queuing going to be able to, relieve themselves?

Will someone keep their place for them? 

I'd have thought so, the official queue hasn't start yet has it? these are people just taking a chance?

[Frankie]

Just now, Peter G said:

How are the people already queuing going to be able to, relieve themselves?

Will someone keep their place for them? 

In Edinburgh where the queue begins there's an area where I believe wristbands are handed out with toilets and I believe there are portoloos along the mile or so queuing route.  In general the queuing system looks fairly informal so I doubt there's going to be much of a problem if someone needs to lose a few mins to pay a visit if you've already been waiting several hours.

[SouthCoastRed]

2 minutes ago, Peter G said:

How are the people already queuing going to be able to, relieve themselves?

Will someone keep their place for them? 

They get armbands with their queue place on them, so they can use a portaloo they go back and queue

[Lucas]

1 minute ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I'd have thought so, the official queue hasn't start yet has it? these are people just taking a chance?

Someone asked a steward where would they start the queue, so the steward told them and that person has since been on TV saying they are going to stay there and wait. 

I wonder how that works though. What if they need the toilet?

 

[Lucas]

@Peter G beat me to it  

[Big Geordie]

6 minutes ago, Peter G said:

How are the people already queuing going to be able to, relieve themselves?

Will someone keep their place for them? 

Heard on the news yesterday, that facilities will be provided - I assume toilets and mobile catering vans (to get food and drink)

[Rob1981]

Imagine having the armband with 0000001 on it. Stick that on eBay alongside all the Jubilee mugs, you’d never need to work again.

[profii]

9 minutes ago, Peter G said:

How are the people already queuing going to be able to, relieve themselves?

Will someone keep their place for them? 

dirty protest

[Frankie]

Just now, Rob1981 said:

Imagine having the armband with 0000001 on it. Stick that on eBay alongside all the Jubilee mugs, you’d never need to work again.

I'm just looking forward to seeing which friend of which MP's company got the armband contract....

[SouthCoastRed]

4 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Imagine having the armband with 0000001 on it. Stick that on eBay alongside all the Jubilee mugs, you’d never need to work again.

I started queuing in 1968, my life is ruined but dammit I’ll have that armband 

[bermybhoy]

There was a woman who's started informally queuing interviewed last night who is there "because they say it could be a 30 hour wait" to get in. 

So you're showing up 3 days early to avoid that 30 hour wait. Gotcha 

Edited September 13, 2022 by bermybhoy

[mark1985]

I dislike the institution of monarchy because it goes against my basic belief of we are all created equal. Why is a royal any different to me because their ancestor was mates with William the Conquerer whilst mine was knee deep in cow manure in some rural backwater? That should have little to no bearing on our lives 1000 years later. At the same time, I bear no ill will to Elizabeth as a person, after all I never met her. Some of her family can get in the bin however. I’m all for showing respect etc but cancelling cancer appointments and funerals never mind kids football and charity walks because of ‘respect’? Nah, not having it. Have a parade, give people the day off work, fine. I’m also split on the protesting of the monarchy at this time. Yeah I probably broadly agree with them and as it’s as the forefront of peoples minds now, it’s probably a good time to talk about it. But also it doesn’t feel like the right time if you know what I mean?

[Big Geordie]

4 minutes ago, mark1985 said:

I dislike the institution of monarchy because it goes against my basic belief of we are all created equal. Why is a royal any different to me because their ancestor was mates with William the Conquerer whilst mine was knee deep in cow manure in some rural backwater? That should have little to no bearing on our lives 1000 years later. At the same time, I bear no ill will to Elizabeth as a person, after all I never met her. Some of her family can get in the bin however. I’m all for showing respect etc but cancelling cancer appointments and funerals never mind kids football and charity walks because of ‘respect’? Nah, not having it. Have a parade, give people the day off work, fine. I’m also split on the protesting of the monarchy at this time. Yeah I probably broadly agree with them and as it’s as the forefront of peoples minds now, it’s probably a good time to talk about it. But also it doesn’t feel like the right time if you know what I mean?

Know your place, peasant!

That's what it's all about. Feudalism still runs a big part of the UK. It's lasted for over 1000 years and 'they' won't give it up without a fight.

[oche balboa]

2 minutes ago, Big Geordie said:

Know your place, peasant!

That's what it's all about. Feudalism still runs a big part of the UK. It's lasted for over 1000 years and 'they' won't give it up without a fight.

BG until you make a bigger, better and compiling case for a Republic then it will continue "They" wont give up without a fight ....Whom? 

If you want change then make a good argument  

[Darren Moores Mum]

7 minutes ago, oche balboa said:

BG until you make a bigger, better and compiling case for a Republic then it will continue "They" wont give up without a fight ....Whom? 

If you want change then make a good argument  

There are plenty of good arguments for a Republic ffs. Just because BG didn't list them in that post doesn't mean there aren't any. You choose not to listen to them.

[mark1985]

7 minutes ago, oche balboa said:

BG until you make a bigger, better and compiling case for a Republic then it will continue "They" wont give up without a fight ....Whom? 

If you want change then make a good argument  

My argument is why are they any more worthy of being the monarch than me? Or you? Or Dave from the pub? Being the head of a country (regardless of how much power they do or don’t have) shouldn’t be down to the lottery of birth. 

[Gazza D]

1 hour ago, profii said:

next monday is a public holiday as per the government announcement

therefore it is not part of your 25 day allowance and they need to let you have it off

stand your ground, its not about the public living crisis, its about them honouring the legal contract they agreed to when they employed you. They shouldnt even be asking people to WFH.

Thank you, I shall go to them with this.

[titchuk]

8 minutes ago, mark1985 said:

My argument is why are they any more worthy of being the monarch than me? Or you? Or Dave from the pub? Being the head of a country (regardless of how much power they do or don’t have) shouldn’t be down to the lottery of birth. 

Take it up with mark1032 who, as you yourself admit on the last page, was messing around in cow manure in some rural backwater rather than leading a large army across the sea.

[bermybhoy]

Now there's a woman in Edinburgh who's "been round" 7 times. That's a lot of respect being paid.