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[Scotland Premiership] Data Issues


Ed Hewison
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9 hours ago, thebigdonel said:

care to explain why or what i'm wrong about?

Well you're certainly wrong about County being better than St J.   You're so wrong the line between right and wrong is a dot...

You say Chris Kane is rated not very well at jumping in game while he's actually is rated "good" at jumping on scale that goes from "poor to good".   This attribute is based on his height.  Did you know that, no? 

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On 25/10/2021 at 14:38, Ter said:

Composure in front of goal over the past couple of years has been one of the biggest disappointments in Alfredo's game and is something that lets him down time and time again. He gets himself into great positions sometimes but the composure isn't there to take the chances. If it was then he wouldn't be at Rangers right now.

I do find this hard to argue. I do think 5 is extremely low and will effect his abilitys on FM however I do accept these points. 

Out of curiousity now ive had a little better look, whats the debt Rangers are paying off in game? 

 

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44 minutes ago, wardog said:

I do find this hard to argue. I do think 5 is extremely low and will effect his abilitys on FM however I do accept these points. 

Out of curiousity now ive had a little better look, whats the debt Rangers are paying off in game? 

 

If it makes you feel any better I ran 3 tests of 1 season and his League/Total was

 

14/23 (played 42 games) 

16/26 (played 40 games)

15/32 (played 45 games)

 

Seems okay to me?  @Ter?

 

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14 hours ago, Henrik7 said:

I noticed in the Celtic transfer clauses that Celtic are due £1 for the Ryan Christie transfer if Bournemouth win promotion from the Championship. This does not seem right. 

RC Cel.PNG

Yeah, cheers. It was brought up in the English Championship thread and as far as I'm aware, the English have fixed it.

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14 hours ago, thebigdonel said:

care to explain why or what i'm wrong about?

As he quoted, @ATWmeans your "St Johnstone are absolutely tragic. Ross County are dominant match to match, which seems like a poor reflection of both team's recent history." 
You couldn't have picked a worse team to compare with, as St Johnstone's CA16 is a massive 9 points clear of Ross County's. While St Johnstone's CA16 is also the highest rated for the 'best of the rest,' so we do know how both teams have been performing recently. 

Mistakes happen, opinions vary, but in the main, we know what we're doing. Hyperbole like "Absolutely tragic" when as ATW points out, that simply isn't true, isn't going to get you anywhere, as it just makes us ignore the rest of your 'valid' points. 

You're obviously right about Wotherspoon, although he has a MC14 rating, but  you're right, with him playing more in the MC/AMC role last season, that should get upped and also an AMC rating added. I've done that now, but our data lock was Monday, so it won't make the release database. Sorry.

Chris Kane's jumping attribute, as @ATWpoints out, depends on a players height and it's currently rated as 'Good' for a player of his height. His PPM of 'beats offside trap' could probably be removed now too, now he's changed the way he's playing since that got set. 

O'Halloran's pace has been upped as well, but I'm not sure if it got caught in time before the data lock. Martin Boyle's pace got fixed a few builds ago, as Stuart said earlier in the thread.

Edited by Giro
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8 hours ago, ATW said:

Well you're certainly wrong about County being better than St J.   You're so wrong the line between right and wrong is a dot...

You say Chris Kane is rated not very well at jumping in game while he's actually is rated "good" at jumping on scale that goes from "poor to good".   This attribute is based on his height.  Did you know that, no? 

In my experience, St Johnstone struggle to make it above 8th or 9th in the table, whereas in 3 saves i've seen Ross County top of the table by december, which is pretty ridiculous

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4 hours ago, Giro said:

As he quoted, @ATWmeans your "St Johnstone are absolutely tragic. Ross County are dominant match to match, which seems like a poor reflection of both team's recent history." 
You couldn't have picked a worse team to compare with, as St Johnstone's CA16 is a massive 9 points clear of Ross County's. While St Johnstone's CA16 is also the highest rated for the 'best of the rest,' so we do know how both teams have been performing recently. 

Mistakes happen, opinions vary, but in the main, we know what we're doing. Hyperbole like "Absolutely tragic" when as ATW points out, that simply isn't true, isn't going to get you anywhere, as it just makes us ignore the rest of your 'valid' points. 

You're obviously right about Wotherspoon, although he has a MC14 rating, but  you're right, with him playing more in the MC/AMC role last season, that should get upped and also an AMC rating added. I've done that now, but our data lock was Monday, so it won't make the release database. Sorry.

Chris Kane's jumping attribute, as @ATWpoints out, depends on a players height and it's currently rated as 'Good' for a player of his height. His PPM of 'beats offside trap' could probably be removed now too, now he's changed the way he's playing since that got set. 

O'Halloran's pace has been upped as well, but I'm not sure if it got caught in time before the data lock. Martin Boyle's pace got fixed a few builds ago, as Stuart said earlier in the thread.

Fair enough, just what i've experienced so far, can't go off anything other than that personally

 

Good to hear about Spoony's positions and the pace of Mikey and Martin, hopefully some of it made it in before the data lock

 

Thanks for the reply

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18 hours ago, thebigdonel said:

Fair enough, just what i've experienced so far, can't go off anything other than that personally

 

Good to hear about Spoony's positions and the pace of Mikey and Martin, hopefully some of it made it in before the data lock

 

Thanks for the reply

Just to add, Shaun Rooney's RB rating got upped to natural again too, I don't know what's happened there. I know he plays WBR for Saints, but he should still be a natural RB as well. Again, it's missed the release database cut-off. 

And no worries, I can understand how frustrating it is, as it annoys us too. We play the game as well and we want the data to be right and the best it can be for our enjoyment as well.

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Fashion Sakala should be rated better,yes hes down as being quick but he looks worse this game than last year where he had a good season for Oostende hitting double figures. Finishing currently for FM22 is 11, if you seen his hattrick today also, this should change.

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On 22/10/2021 at 15:21, jimbo22 said:

One observation so far with regards Rangers. Its seems that Joe Aribo is underrated/undervalued in game. I started a game and in the squad depth list Joe Aribo didnt show up in any of the Central midfield (list of 5) then same with the AM/C roll (Glen Kamara was the top which also seems odd). Just went on Holiday for 6 months as a quick test and Aribo has started 6 games (8 as a sub) and is already leaving to join Young Boys for 4.4m. 

In real life Aribo, as it stands has started more games for us than anyone this season. 

This was just one simulation but id suggest that Aribo is a big player for Gerrard. Anyone have any similar issues with him?

 

 

Seems that Gary McAllister doesn't rate him or Kamara in my game he rarely picks them if you ask him to select the team.

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On 01/11/2021 at 15:40, Kung Fu Leper said:

Couldn't find this in here yet. Ronald Hernandez, Aberdeen right back, should be still on loan at Atlanta United.

He's starts at Atlanta on my Aberdeen save.

However, my Assman picked him as a sub 3 days before the end of his loan, and after he did return, he was given number 12 shirt, reserved for 'Red Army'

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The Motherwell debt repayments still exist in the full release which I will fix myself in the editor.

 

Motherwell now has one development (u18) squad instead of 2 like the beta had which is fine. but again on the 5th of July, a new U21 squad appears to fulfil potentially one fixture in the SPFL trophy that the current U18 could have played in. Again this will render the team meetings an annoyance because you will get prompted to fill the staff roles for a new development squad with no players to play potentially one fixture.

I've not had a look but I'm assuming every premiership team will generate a new U21 to play in this trophy.

Is there a way in the editor to fix this so that the current U18 plays in this trophy instead of it generating a new U21 squad?

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I also raised this under the transfer forum in case it sits better there but it is an SPL data issue of sorts . Kieran Tierney's transfer to Arsenal shows in this season's outgoing for Celtic and appears in the Transfer Window news feed. It was 2019 he left, so think the date in the database is out. His actual profile is fine in terms of history though, which is a bit odd. Screenshots attached. Cheers.1731499652_TransferWindow.thumb.jpg.3bf8aedd428bd4e3f394a36a3d365ae0.jpg778335169_CelticOutgoingTransfers.thumb.jpg.33381d0629c1896fe59b101f465b38f0.jpg

Edited by joe5p
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2 hours ago, snoogins1967 said:

This is still in the full release

AAArrrggghhh.

That's my fault. I had entered it in the database once seeing the original report on this error, but must have not saved or submitted it properly. Just checked what has happened and that change isn't there, sorry about that.

I've put it as £1m on promotion to the Prem, but that change will not appear until the first official data update. As yet, we have not finalised when that will be.

There is a clause partly set in the editor, and what you need to do to edit it is to input the value (£1m), and a start date (01/.07/20210 and an end date (30/06/2024) for the clause.

Apologies again.

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Has the St Johnstone transfer budget been re-evaluated at all?

I don't know what it should be but £40k seems low given that the club brought in £1.8m before add-ons for Kerr and McCann and the club came out and said the money would be reinvested in the football department. I know that can be translated in a few ways but to me that would mean playing staff & the club have only brought in loans since they left except the small fee paid out for Vertainen.

 

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I've noticed some heights differences for some players. I've taken it from Wiki, I know it's not always correct, but some players are clearly not their ingame height, Tav is most noticeable.

There are some players where the difference is an inch, but I've left that, as that's too pedantic.

Capture.PNG

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12 hours ago, zapata said:

I've noticed some heights differences for some players. I've taken it from Wiki, I know it's not always correct, but some players are clearly not their ingame height, Tav is most noticeable.

There are some players where the difference is an inch, but I've left that, as that's too pedantic.

Capture.PNG

Happens a lot, Paul Hanlon in game is 70kg (11st) but he's nearer 81kg

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5 hours ago, FrazT said:

Guys- for height and weight issues to be looked at there would need to be some official data to back this up.

You know what I'm wrong. I checked the official site and Tav is only 5ft 9. 

I always thought he was taller 😄

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On 08/11/2021 at 23:42, joe5p said:

I also raised this under the transfer forum in case it sits better there but it is an SPL data issue of sorts . Kieran Tierney's transfer to Arsenal shows in this season's outgoing for Celtic and appears in the Transfer Window news feed. It was 2019 he left, so think the date in the database is out. His actual profile is fine in terms of history though, which is a bit odd. Screenshots attached. Cheers.1731499652_TransferWindow.thumb.jpg.3bf8aedd428bd4e3f394a36a3d365ae0.jpg778335169_CelticOutgoingTransfers.thumb.jpg.33381d0629c1896fe59b101f465b38f0.jpg

 

Not sure why this issue is appearing but is in the process of being raised, Cheers for Raising the issue

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3 minutes ago, Logan1888 said:

Not sure why this issue is appearing but is in the process of being raised, Cheers for Raising the issue

Already checked

@Pete Sottrel clarified on the EPL thread - my fault entirely; I accidentally changed Tierney's "date joined" when I meant to change his "date last signed contract".  Sorry.

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On 08/11/2021 at 23:53, Dean Gripton said:

AAArrrggghhh.

That's my fault. I had entered it in the database once seeing the original report on this error, but must have not saved or submitted it properly. Just checked what has happened and that change isn't there, sorry about that.

I've put it as £1m on promotion to the Prem, but that change will not appear until the first official data update. As yet, we have not finalised when that will be.

There is a clause partly set in the editor, and what you need to do to edit it is to input the value (£1m), and a start date (01/.07/20210 and an end date (30/06/2024) for the clause.

Apologies again.

Hi Dean, where in the editor can this be updated please? I've always struggled to find promotion/relegation clauses in the editor. Thanks.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Does anyone with a more detailed eye for ratings think Joe Hart is a little under rated in the game? just basing it on sorting my Celtic starting game squad by potential, and Hart is among the lowest in my squad, less than Bolingoli or indeed barkas. Given that Hart is one of the standout stars of the league at the moment id think he should be in my top 5 players.

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On 10/11/2021 at 17:37, tv_capper said:

Already checked

@Pete Sottrel clarified on the EPL thread - my fault entirely; I accidentally changed Tierney's "date joined" when I meant to change his "date last signed contract".  Sorry.

This is still appearing after the big update, was it missed again? @Pete Sottrel @tv_capper

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11 hours ago, joe5p said:

This is still appearing after the big update, was it missed again? @Pete Sottrel @tv_capper

@joe5p - this was changed in the database at the time when I found the error.  The update did not include all the changes that we have made in the database since the initial release datalock.

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On 04/12/2021 at 22:53, madeirabhoy said:

Does anyone with a more detailed eye for ratings think Joe Hart is a little under rated in the game? just basing it on sorting my Celtic starting game squad by potential, and Hart is among the lowest in my squad, less than Bolingoli or indeed barkas. Given that Hart is one of the standout stars of the league at the moment id think he should be in my top 5 players.

the low potential rating will be down to his age and how likely he is to improve in the future

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On 14/12/2021 at 12:46, littledragon84 said:

I notice for some reason that Kyogo speaks Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian this isn't the case. He can only speak Japanese. 

think this could be a bug, as in the database he is only down as speaking Japanese

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Hi Stuart and rest of Scottish research team.

Would it be unfair to suggest Celtic's players have been hit a bit too hard by the general downgrade across the SPL in FM22. I understand that CA might fall within a random range from game to game, but in current save Matty Longstaff has higher CA than Tom Rogic. Could this suggest that mediocre EPL players are significantly over stated, or that the SPL has been hit too hard? You will struggle to find anyone with even a minute knowledge of the SPL to say that Longstaff is better than Rogic.

Albeit Celtic had a bad year, Callum McGregor's CA is lower than Kent, Kamara, Hagi, Goldson and Morelos? Surely that is not correct. There could be arguments around one or two but in terms of consistent sustained performance levels McGregor should be a bit better?

Sakala starts out better than established Rangers players and all but McGregor, Furuhashi and Turnbull at Celtic. Has he proved to be a better player than his teammates and Rogic, Forrest etc. 

Rangers players no doubt needed a boost post FM21 in some cases and I don't begrudge that, but it looks like Rangers have increased a little too much and Celtic decreased by same measure. From one season with no fans etc?

Another exampls is Fuchs at Dundee Utd. He is a good player, and a mid level FM20 legend if you got him at the right time, but to have better CA than the majority of the Celtic squad doesn't really add up.  John Souttar has higher CA than Jota, Rogic and Forrest?

Just some observations and appreciate that there will always be a degree of subjectivity. 

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10 hours ago, joe5p said:

Hi Stuart and rest of Scottish research team.

Would it be unfair to suggest Celtic's players have been hit a bit too hard by the general downgrade across the SPL in FM22. I understand that CA might fall within a random range from game to game, but in current save Matty Longstaff has higher CA than Tom Rogic. Could this suggest that mediocre EPL players are significantly over stated, or that the SPL has been hit too hard? You will struggle to find anyone with even a minute knowledge of the SPL to say that Longstaff is better than Rogic.

Albeit Celtic had a bad year, Callum McGregor's CA is lower than Kent, Kamara, Hagi, Goldson and Morelos? Surely that is not correct. There could be arguments around one or two but in terms of consistent sustained performance levels McGregor should be a bit better?

Sakala starts out better than established Rangers players and all but McGregor, Furuhashi and Turnbull at Celtic. Has he proved to be a better player than his teammates and Rogic, Forrest etc. 

Rangers players no doubt needed a boost post FM21 in some cases and I don't begrudge that, but it looks like Rangers have increased a little too much and Celtic decreased by same measure. From one season with no fans etc?

Another exampls is Fuchs at Dundee Utd. He is a good player, and a mid level FM20 legend if you got him at the right time, but to have better CA than the majority of the Celtic squad doesn't really add up.  John Souttar has higher CA than Jota, Rogic and Forrest?

Just some observations and appreciate that there will always be a degree of subjectivity. 

Hi Joe,

I think your numbers are a little bit out. I can't legislate for what CAs look like down the line into someone's saved game, but to look at some specific examples...

Matty Longstaff's CA is 115 while Tom Rogic has 125

Fashion Sakala has a CA of 124 meaning that there are 10 Celtic players and 12 Rangers players rated higher than him.

John Souttar has a CA of 122 which is lower than Rogic (125), Forrest (127) and Furuhashi (127)

Fuchs has a CA of 123 meaning there are 10 Celtic players rated higher than him. I would suggest that Fuchs will leave United either in January or July to join a team at a higher level, so I'm comfortable with the justification of this.

Rangers players deserved a boost because they were better than Celtic last season. We rate players based on how they should be rated at the time a game is released and that takes into account the most recent season, regardless of whether or not there were fans in attendance

When it comes to McGregor (130); yes, there are 4 players rated higher than him (Kent (135), Goldson (132), Morelos (133) and Tavernier (131)) but surely that's not worth sweating over?

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10 hours ago, Stuart Milne said:

Hi Joe,

I think your numbers are a little bit out. I can't legislate for what CAs look like down the line into someone's saved game, but to look at some specific examples...

Matty Longstaff's CA is 115 while Tom Rogic has 125

Fashion Sakala has a CA of 124 meaning that there are 10 Celtic players and 12 Rangers players rated higher than him.

John Souttar has a CA of 122 which is lower than Rogic (125), Forrest (127) and Furuhashi (127)

Fuchs has a CA of 123 meaning there are 10 Celtic players rated higher than him. I would suggest that Fuchs will leave United either in January or July to join a team at a higher level, so I'm comfortable with the justification of this.

Rangers players deserved a boost because they were better than Celtic last season. We rate players based on how they should be rated at the time a game is released and that takes into account the most recent season, regardless of whether or not there were fans in attendance

When it comes to McGregor (130); yes, there are 4 players rated higher than him (Kent (135), Goldson (132), Morelos (133) and Tavernier (131)) but surely that's not worth sweating over?

Thanks Stuart, after posting I realised that I was taking numbers further down the line in game. Understand all of it bar McGregor, his consistency levels merit being better than most if not all of those listed. The one-season/point in time logic is understandable to a point, but for likes of Fuchs or Longstaff their point in time is higher than many well established SPL players with more on their CV. Point in time only could have seen Morelos bumped backwards. He got 17 in 44 last season, but his previous season must have counted for something. McGregor year in year out is very consistent. Thanks for replying though. 

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1 hour ago, joe5p said:

Thanks Stuart, after posting I realised that I was taking numbers further down the line in game. Understand all of it bar McGregor, his consistency levels merit being better than most if not all of those listed. The one-season/point in time logic is understandable to a point, but for likes of Fuchs or Longstaff their point in time is higher than many well established SPL players with more on their CV. Point in time only could have seen Morelos bumped backwards. He got 17 in 44 last season, but his previous season must have counted for something. McGregor year in year out is very consistent. Thanks for replying though. 

I'm not really sure what you mean re: Fuchs and Longstaff relative to others.

Are you saying that a player who comes to the SPFL Premiership from La Liga and within a year established himself as one of the best midfielders in our league should be rated lower than a player who has played in that league longer?

Say that same player signs for Celtic in January; is it that unlikely that he might get chosen to play ahead of Bitton, McCarthy or Soro? I don't think so.

As for McGregor, his consistency levels merit him having a higher consistency rating than some of the players ahead of him, and that's exactly what he has. Tavernier and Goldson have higher consistency levels, and based on last season, I think that's fair.

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3 hours ago, Stuart Milne said:

I'm not really sure what you mean re: Fuchs and Longstaff relative to others.

Are you saying that a player who comes to the SPFL Premiership from La Liga and within a year established himself as one of the best midfielders in our league should be rated lower than a player who has played in that league longer?

Say that same player signs for Celtic in January; is it that unlikely that he might get chosen to play ahead of Bitton, McCarthy or Soro? I don't think so.

As for McGregor, his consistency levels merit him having a higher consistency rating than some of the players ahead of him, and that's exactly what he has. Tavernier and Goldson have higher consistency levels, and based on last season, I think that's fair.

Thanks Stuart, 

No, I didn't say length of time in the league was the singular reason for setting CA. I don't disagree with the players you have mentioned and didn't reference them (Soro etc.). I maybe should have been clearer in that the better Celtic players have taken a hit. 

Fuchs played 6 games in the Israeli top flight, none in la liga and 20 in the SPL. He has a CA of 123. Tom Rogic has played CL and Europa Lge, World Cup, numerous trophies in Scotland and his CA is 125 as it shows in the editor. Rogic is still playing at a good level performance wise. The difference in game is neglible, IRL significant.  James Forrest within touching distance at 127. I don't think there is really an argument that would stand to reason that says Fuchs and Rogic are of similar Current Ability. I really like Fuchs, had him in FM20 but that is not a fair distribution. His PA being at 140 is understandable and he obviously has potential to go and be a very good player. 

My concern is not so much that 123 is too high for Fuchs but that 125 and 127 are too low for likes of Rogic and Forrest.

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29 minutes ago, joe5p said:

Thanks Stuart, 

No, I didn't say length of time in the league was the singular reason for setting CA. I don't disagree with the players you have mentioned and didn't reference them (Soro etc.). I maybe should have been clearer in that the better Celtic players have taken a hit. 

Fuchs played 6 games in the Israeli top flight, none in la liga and 20 in the SPL. He has a CA of 123. Tom Rogic has played CL and Europa Lge, World Cup, numerous trophies in Scotland and his CA is 125 as it shows in the editor. Rogic is still playing at a good level performance wise. The difference in game is neglible, IRL significant.  James Forrest within touching distance at 127. I don't think there is really an argument that would stand to reason that says Fuchs and Rogic are of similar Current Ability. I really like Fuchs, had him in FM20 but that is not a fair distribution. His PA being at 140 is understandable and he obviously has potential to go and be a very good player. 

My concern is not so much that 123 is too high for Fuchs but that 125 and 127 are too low for likes of Rogic and Forrest.

I think there definitely is a case for them having a similar CA.

What you're doing there is suggesting that a player must have - or must not have - a CA of a certain level based upon the club he plays for and the competitions he's played in.

I have no doubt in my mind that if Fuchs moved to Celtic in January and played SPFL football for 5 months without playing in Europe once, but also played in the same team as Rogic, you would have no qualms at all about him having a CA at that level relative to Rogic and Forrest.

In fact, to put this into perspective for you, look at David Turnbull's CA. He has a CA of 124, which is one higher than Fuchs. That CA - if we're looking at last season as a guide - is based upon playing for Celtic domestically and never winning a trophy, playing 87 minutes of European football and playing 81 minutes of an international friendly. Surely then that isn't enough to only be 1 CA point lower than Rogic, but you haven't brought that up because it's a comparison with another Celtic player and you - quite rightly I imagine - look at the two and think they are actually pretty similar in ability.

Players outside of Rangers and Celtic can be just as good as players at Rangers and Celtic.

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3 hours ago, Stuart Milne said:

I think there definitely is a case for them having a similar CA.

What you're doing there is suggesting that a player must have - or must not have - a CA of a certain level based upon the club he plays for and the competitions he's played in.

I have no doubt in my mind that if Fuchs moved to Celtic in January and played SPFL football for 5 months without playing in Europe once, but also played in the same team as Rogic, you would have no qualms at all about him having a CA at that level relative to Rogic and Forrest.

In fact, to put this into perspective for you, look at David Turnbull's CA. He has a CA of 124, which is one higher than Fuchs. That CA - if we're looking at last season as a guide - is based upon playing for Celtic domestically and never winning a trophy, playing 87 minutes of European football and playing 81 minutes of an international friendly. Surely then that isn't enough to only be 1 CA point lower than Rogic, but you haven't brought that up because it's a comparison with another Celtic player and you - quite rightly I imagine - look at the two and think they are actually pretty similar in ability.

Players outside of Rangers and Celtic can be just as good as players at Rangers and Celtic.

Thanks Stuart, I know they can but you are presenting this as a Celtic/Rangers v the rest issue. I am focussing on specific individual players in Rogic, Forrest and McGregor. My suggestion is simply that their CA should take account of their ability level relative to the other players in game. It happens to be easier to compare across the same league. 

For example, Soro is not that great but plays for Celtic. Just because he does is not a measure of how I think he should be rated in game. For Fuchs, 6 games in the Israeli top flight and a decent start at Dundee United (20 games pre FM22), don't, in my opinion, merit a rating akin to Turnbull or Rogic. I am not suggesting anything en-masse and have statedthat I don't have an issue with players like Soro et al not being rated akin to Rogic or higher than other players from the league. Nor would it be the case that the likes of Doig, Kerr Smith etc. shouldn't have high potential just because they are not with Celtic or Rangers.  In terms of looking into the future, that isn't really something that can be taken care of other than with PA, and Fuchs has that covered well. Whether or not he would hypothetically start with Celtic in January 2023 is of no relevance whatsoever to a cold comparison of his current ability with that of Rogic. 

What is the case for a similar CA between Fuchs and Rogic? 26 games across Israel and Scotland? If the suggestion is that I am blinded by supporting Celtic, does the same not apply to those who support Dundee United? 

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1 hour ago, joe5p said:

Thanks Stuart, I know they can but you are presenting this as a Celtic/Rangers v the rest issue. I am focussing on specific individual players in Rogic, Forrest and McGregor. My suggestion is simply that their CA should take account of their ability level relative to the other players in game. It happens to be easier to compare across the same league. 

For example, Soro is not that great but plays for Celtic. Just because he does is not a measure of how I think he should be rated in game. For Fuchs, 6 games in the Israeli top flight and a decent start at Dundee United (20 games pre FM22), don't, in my opinion, merit a rating akin to Turnbull or Rogic. I am not suggesting anything en-masse and have statedthat I don't have an issue with players like Soro et al not being rated akin to Rogic or higher than other players from the league. Nor would it be the case that the likes of Doig, Kerr Smith etc. shouldn't have high potential just because they are not with Celtic or Rangers.  In terms of looking into the future, that isn't really something that can be taken care of other than with PA, and Fuchs has that covered well. Whether or not he would hypothetically start with Celtic in January 2023 is of no relevance whatsoever to a cold comparison of his current ability with that of Rogic. 

What is the case for a similar CA between Fuchs and Rogic? 26 games across Israel and Scotland? If the suggestion is that I am blinded by supporting Celtic, does the same not apply to those who support Dundee United? 

PA wouldn't cover it. We have to look at how good a player is now and if the player in question could play at a higher level now.

As a team - so that's fans of all clubs - it was agreed that Fuchs, much like Boyle, Souttar  and a few others, was good enough now to be play at that higher level. I think that's fair. It was also fair when Turnbull was rated as good enough to play at a higher level in a previous game. January 2023 has no relevance to anything I've said.

I should point out that you've said a couple of posts up that you feel the difference between Fuchs CA and some of the Celtic players is negligible (which is true) but that even though the same negligible difference applies to McGregor and the 4 players above him, that is an issue too. You can't have it both ways.

Celtic's better players are rated anywhere from 10-20 CA points higher than good players outside of the top 2. That's fair and reflective. It's also fair and reflective that the top players outside the top 2 are rated at a similar level to the good players at Celtic or Rangers.

That's always been the case and it won't change.

 

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Thanks Stuart, 

The McGregor point is more that for me he should be first or second overall in Scotland but I can see that you could view that (fairly) as splitting hairs. Negligible differences within the top group are understandable (the five Rangers and McGregor).

My issue is more that Rogic and Forrest should be in that top group, and not in the next batch down.

Sakala 1 CA point below Rogic and the same as Turnbull? Again, hard to see any justification for that. Hagi above Rogic?

I also think that clubbing Celtic and Rangers together isn't helpful as it suggests their squads are similar CA wise. It is a three tiered breakdown at the moment. Rangers have 22 players with CA at 120 or more, Celtic have 12. So in game at the moment, Rangers can field a second team broadly on par with Celtic's first XI. I think that is a bit lopsided towards Rangers. After Celtic come the rest of the SPL. 

Celtic seem to have taken a hit this year which appears harsh, and when combined with the spike in some Rangers stats (broadly justified at the top end) along with favourable ratings for new signings at Rangers it has the balance a little lopsided at the start of the game.

Take Juranovic, he currently ranks below 22 Rangers squad members, whereas if Lundstrum was in the Celtic squad he would be ranked 9th on CA on same as Rogic. Cedric Itten would also make Celtic's first XI.

I respect the work that goes into this and the fact that ratings are given in good faith, but even if we set aside Fuchs, Rogic is on broad par with Itten, Lundstrum and Sakala. It seems a bit harsh.  I would bet a Rangers fan posting in good faith would acknowledge Rogic should be in the McGregor, Kent, Morelos, Goldson, Tavernier group rather than with Sakala, Fuchs, Lundstrum and Itten. 

 

 

Edited by joe5p
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