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Football Manager 2022 Headline Features - In The Studio Part 2


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5 minutes ago, BrightLad5 said:

The Stadium I was managing in at Central Espanyol in Uruguay was noticeably different to any stadium I had managed in in Europe, with different buildings and backdrops around the stadium. Flares in the stands too which I hadn't really seen much in other Saves like in England which was quite a nice change. Some nice little quirks 

Sometimes you come across the roofless stands, but 99% of the South American stadiums look stupid...especially the bigger the capacity gets. Also, are we going to ignore altitude? It’s a massive part of South American football (one of the game breaking save parts IMO) , but for some reason it is never reflected in FM

Is altitude finally going to be fixed this year? 

Edited by akm.91
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1 hour ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

... That experience may be fun for that person but it’s not immersing you in a world of football.

...

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. What you feel immersive does not necessarily reflect what I feel as immersive.

Computer gaming simulations are all about suspension of disbelief and, to be quite honest, on that front Championship Manager '93 did it as well as FM 2021. But this is for me. I'm not assuming for one second this is true for everyone or that I have the only possible take on what an 'immersive simulation' game is. 

Just to prevent the next question (so why do you play FM 2021 and not CM 93 if it was that great?) well, like prob +90% of FM buyers, for the updated database.

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5 minutes ago, akm.91 said:

Is altitude finally going to be fixed this year? 

I think I read something about that being in FM21? I'll see if I can dig up the post I'm thinking off.

Edit: I can't find the one I'm looking for, but here is a response from SI regarding how it only affects matches on full detail.

So it is included, at the very least.

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19 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Which is a fair point again, but while I'd always argue for SI to make FM as realistic as possible, if we're getting to the point where we're seriously developing features that are knowingly tedious (and I know, I know, it's completely subjective) just because it's tedious in real life, then they're in dangerous of disappearing in the vicinty of certain orifices.  I'd be even more supportive of a version of FM that could be as realistic as possible, whilst "game-ifying" certain other parts to make them more enjoyable to sit through.  Not convinced that is ever going to be a direction they'll go though.

This is the key part. I do want the game to be as realistic as possible, but you do have to remember it's still a game. Some stuff may be realistic, but you don't have to implement it to be so boring and tedious.

 

21 minutes ago, BrightLad5 said:

I was just curious what you want them to do differently? People who have feelings that are that much strongly against the core concept of the game (text based interactions) Id have thought would have thoughts on what you'd rather see from the game

I do have some opinions and ideas on how to improve certain things, not for this though. Maybe they should diversify, instead of getting a wall of text every day in inbox, info is presented in a different, more engaging way? Maybe not everything has to be inside inbox. Maybe a separate media tab for press conferences and other related stuff.

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15 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Which is a fair point again, but while I'd always argue for SI to make FM as realistic as possible, if we're getting to the point where we're seriously developing features that are knowingly tedious (and I know, I know, it's completely subjective) just because it's tedious in real life, then they're in dangerous of disappearing in the vicinty of certain orifices.  I'd be even more supportive of a version of FM that could be as realistic as possible, whilst "game-ifying" certain other parts to make them more enjoyable to sit through.  Not convinced that is ever going to be a direction they'll go though.

I agree, but how to select what parts should be realistic and what should be gameified? It would be a very different answer depending on who you'd ask. Just look at the varied discussions in here...

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5 minutes ago, XaW said:

I agree, but how to select what parts should be realistic and what should be gameified? It would be a very different answer depending on who you'd ask. Just look at the varied discussions in here...

They already select this. It’s what they do as a games studio. Just having attributes means that part is gameified. Watching matches on highlights means it’s gameified. 
 

More of that decision making should come to the fore when looking at things like staff meetings and press conferences. 

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On 09/10/2021 at 12:00, davehanson said:

As I said a few posts up, there appears nothing new in the game, other than the data hub, which I am not sure how much use it will be anyway, and a new wide centre back - which is irrelevant to me as I can't remember the last time I played a 3 man defence. 

You seem to be missing a completely updated animation engine that finally splits the player's movements from the 2D limitations they were under previously, meaning a much wider variety of player movement and actions, which, if you've looked into the ME, would have a massive impact on how the game plays.

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Just now, DP said:

They already select this. It’s what they do as a games studio. Just having attributes means that part is gameified. Watching matches on highlights means it’s gameified. 
 

More of that decision making should come to the fore when looking at things like staff meetings and press conferences. 

Well, I actually love the squad management part of the game. Making sure everyone is happy, talking to them, giving game time. I also like youth development, keeping spreadsheets of development and making sure the players train well and handle matches, etc. And I don't really mind what happens in the matches themselves as long as we do somewhere around what the board expect to avoid the sack. But I also realise that if I got my wishes for what would be elaborated on and what would be cut down, then a lot of people would get angry. There is not 1 way to play this game, and from that people will do it differently. There is a reason so many people are looking for an "instant result" skin, for example.

So going back to the question at hand, SI have to decide what parts of the game the most users would enjoy and build on that. Feedback from here helps, but there are also questionnaires, polls, etc, that they try to get info about. FMFC is one of those channels where they try to get feedback from what the users want. The problem with consumers is that they are not a big monolith where everyone wants the same thing! ;)

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1 minute ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

You seem to be missing a completely updated animation engine that finally splits the player's movements from the 2D limitations they were under previously, meaning a much wider variety of player movement and actions, which, if you've looked into the ME, would have a massive impact on how the game plays.

This could be massive, the showcase looked great, but the ME gameplay looked awfully similar to what we currently have.

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18 minutes ago, (sic) said:

I do have some opinions and ideas on how to improve certain things, not for this though. Maybe they should diversify, instead of getting a wall of text every day in inbox, info is presented in a different, more engaging way? Maybe not everything has to be inside inbox. Maybe a separate media tab for press conferences and other related stuff.

Yeah a revamp of the inbox heavy system could be good, or like you say less inbox for certain things like Training or other aspects could be great. Maybe more prominence put on graphic analysis of matches being in the Tactics screen instead of the News inbox

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1 minute ago, BrightLad5 said:

Yeah a revamp of the inbox heavy system could be good, or like you say less inbox for certain things like Training or other aspects could be great. Maybe more prominence put on graphic analysis of matches being in the Tactics screen instead of the News inbox

Exactly, every new feature they add just adds more inbox messages and stuff you have to read through. They should change the way stuff is presented definitely.

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27 minutes ago, akm.91 said:

Sometimes you come across the roofless stands, but 99% of the South American stadiums look stupid...especially the bigger the capacity gets. Also, are we going to ignore altitude? It’s a massive part of South American football (one of the game breaking save parts IMO) , but for some reason it is never reflected in FM

Is altitude finally going to be fixed this year? 

The graphical side of FM is still lacking but for me personally it doesn’t cause me too many issues. Like I say I quite enjoyed the changing look of some of the Uruguayan stadia and surrounding environment, even if they did maybe look more Mediterranean :lol: it was a nice change.

Altitude, im not sure about. Not quite sure how’s it’s implemented as I hadn’t managed in this country before. I do like the proposed changes they are making to stamina and how that affects tactics like the gegenpress for FM22 so it will be interesting to see if those formations are even more tricky to use in high altitude counties where stamina could be affected more

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13 minutes ago, XaW said:

... The problem with consumers is that they are not a big monolith where everyone wants the same thing! ;)

I think, on that front, the current delegation mechanic actually is the answer. You can delegate virtually everything and that's the right way to approach this. Yes, things can get horrendously screwy with delegation, but that's an accurate reflection of what delegation looks like...

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7 minutes ago, BrightLad5 said:

Yeah a revamp of the inbox heavy system could be good, or like you say less inbox for certain things like Training or other aspects could be great. Maybe more prominence put on graphic analysis of matches being in the Tactics screen instead of the News inbox

This is kind of what they are trying to do with DD. The response was this is not new.

 

last year recruitment meeting had its own screen and I guess the new staff meeting will as well.

iMO, staff meeting stuff was hard to find. I would miss a lot of the advice about certain players daily and only would see these things in my inbox when the time came. It go to a point where I was checking for advice on a daily basics so this meeting will be a help. I just hope that the AI is improved with it so that the advice are more useful than not.

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13 minutes ago, XaW said:

Well, I actually love the squad management part of the game. Making sure everyone is happy, talking to them, giving game time. I also like youth development, keeping spreadsheets of development and making sure the players train well and handle matches, etc. And I don't really mind what happens in the matches themselves as long as we do somewhere around what the board expect to avoid the sack. But I also realise that if I got my wishes for what would be elaborated on and what would be cut down, then a lot of people would get angry. There is not 1 way to play this game, and from that people will do it differently. There is a reason so many people are looking for an "instant result" skin, for example.

So going back to the question at hand, SI have to decide what parts of the game the most users would enjoy and build on that. Feedback from here helps, but there are also questionnaires, polls, etc, that they try to get info about. FMFC is one of those channels where they try to get feedback from what the users want. The problem with consumers is that they are not a big monolith where everyone wants the same thing! ;)

If individual/team talks were authentic and original then I would do the same. But it becomes muscle memory and more often that not, you have to click the same replies to the same questions time and time again to trigger the response you want...and that’s without the fact you can respond more than reasonably to certain requests, only for the players/team to react with a completely illogical, unrealistic response which creates another problem. Every new save you just end up using the same responses to the same interactions over and over again...

 

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9 minutes ago, BrightLad5 said:

Yeah a revamp of the inbox heavy system could be good, or like you say less inbox for certain things like Training or other aspects could be great. Maybe more prominence put on graphic analysis of matches being in the Tactics screen instead of the News inbox

If we are revising the inbox, can we have folders inside it where messages go to? Just separate them as 'press clips' 'internal' , 'board', etc and make them automatically arrive there. That would reduce the clutter ten-fold. I also have a sneaky feeling that, with folders, the inbox / social media could somehow be combined into a single entity thus reducing the screen maze effect by a bit. But hey, that's what I would like, I'm fully certain someone else will hate this as a concept.

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2 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

This is kind of what they are trying to do with DD. The response was this is not new.

Agreed. The DD revamp seems to be a graphical change to take away from Text based inbox stuff. And yes, the response was negative but maybe that’s more as it was announced as headline. I for one am actually looking forward to the DD revamp :D

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4 minutes ago, jmlima said:

I think, on that front, the current delegation mechanic actually is the answer. You can delegate virtually everything and that's the right way to approach this. Yes, things can get horrendously screwy with delegation, but that's an accurate reflection of what delegation looks like...

Yeah, delegation is the key to win here, but it also a question as to how much better than the assistant should micromanaging actually be? The small gains vs speed and ease?

2 minutes ago, akm.91 said:

If individual/team talks were authentic and original then I would do the same. But it becomes muscle memory and more often that not, you have to click the same replies to the same questions time and time again to trigger the response you want...and that’s without the fact you can respond more than reasonably to certain requests, only for the players/team to react with a completely illogical, unrealistic response which creates another problem. Every new save you just end up using the same responses to the same interactions over and over again...

Oh, there are clearly improvements possible in this part, but going of pure muscle memory when doing this, then you might be doing yourself a disservice. Different players need very different messages in order to get the most out of them. In my best FM21 save, I had a player I just could not praise at all, because if I did he played horribly for the next period. So I had to make a not of never giving him praise and always demand more if him. Then I had a massive wimp who I could never criticise at all to get the best out of him. Getting a green ("good") or a red ("bad") response is not all that comes out of the module. Some times I want them to get angry, especially after we lose when had been on a run. I want them to feel the defeat and bounce back.

So doing the same thing over and over, you are not getting the best out of the players you manage. That's not to say it's perfect! I want more variation, I want more issues, I want more ways to deal with things, but I also want it to be harder because I want to be challenged. At the same time, I know of users who hate this part, who don't want to bother with the human element, and want 11 robots who follow their instructions on the pitch and otherwise shuts up.

I don't have the answer to how it can be done, but I think it goes forward with each and every version and for me, that's perfectly fine.

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20 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

This is kind of what they are trying to do with DD. The response was this is not new.

 

last year recruitment meeting had its own screen and I guess the new staff meeting will as well.

iMO, staff meeting stuff was hard to find. I would miss a lot of the advice about certain players daily and only would see these things in my inbox when the time came. It go to a point where I was checking for advice on a daily basics so this meeting will be a help. I just hope that the AI is improved with it so that the advice are more useful than not.

 

16 minutes ago, BrightLad5 said:

Agreed. The DD revamp seems to be a graphical change to take away from Text based inbox stuff. And yes, the response was negative but maybe that’s more as it was announced as headline. I for one am actually looking forward to the DD revamp :D

 

The whole issue is exactly that, it's being advertised as a new big feature. I'm indifferent to it, I always skip DD as I don't have the need for it. Maybe I'll occasionally use it now, who knows?

But it definitely is a step in the right direction, UI/UX change to take away from text based inbox stuff, like you said :D

I like recruitment meetings, I don't have to go out any manually set up scouting assignments, now I have it all in one screen. I'm indifferent to staff meetings as well, but it could be something useful. And again, it's a good change in UI/UX department.

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33 minutes ago, XaW said:

but how to select what parts should be realistic and what should be gameified?

I think we could have a form of realism ( and implicit immersion ) and a level of "gameification" without conflict. If someone feels the need for immersion via let's say "geographically aware" stadiums, light, altitude, grass quality - let there be some form of variety. Let there be some form of behavioral variety for owners, reporters, fans. Let there be a form a behavioral variety for players also because for now lower league or premier league - they are all the same.

If someone else just want's to play his text base game and watch a 2D stand-less representation - by all means, let him disable all of the above and enjoy his way of playing.

Maybe for someone realism means long interviews, press pression, nagging questions about discontent players- let him toggle it on. But let there be variety and options.

 

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21 minutes ago, jmlima said:

If we are revising the inbox, can we have folders inside it where messages go to? Just separate them as 'press clips' 'internal' , 'board', etc and make them automatically arrive there. That would reduce the clutter ten-fold. I also have a sneaky feeling that, with folders, the inbox / social media could somehow be combined into a single entity thus reducing the screen maze effect by a bit. But hey, that's what I would like, I'm fully certain someone else will hate this as a concept.

This is a great idea! Separating the inbox up would be really useful!

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9 minutes ago, (sic) said:

 

 

The whole issue is exactly that, it's being advertised as a new big feature. I'm indifferent to it, I always skip DD as I don't have the need for it. Maybe I'll occasionally use it now, who knows?

But it definitely is a step in the right direction, UI/UX change to take away from text based inbox stuff, like you said :D

I like recruitment meetings, I don't have to go out any manually set up scouting assignments, now I have it all in one screen. I'm indifferent to staff meetings as well, but it could be something useful. And again, it's a good change in UI/UX department.

Yup exactly that. If the term “headline feature” never existed and they just announced a few changes (data hub, revamped DD, staff meeting etc) then there wouldn’t be half the uproar. We all know it is hard to implement game changing features now and a lot will be UI/UX changes each season, with the occasion big new thing like Set Piece revamp and the imminent (if distant) Women’s football. 

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7 minutes ago, BrightLad5 said:

Yup exactly that. If the term “headline feature” never existed and they just announced a few changes (data hub, revamped DD, staff meeting etc) then there wouldn’t be half the uproar. We all know it is hard to implement game changing features now and a lot will be UI/UX changes each season, with the occasion big new thing like Set Piece revamp and the imminent (of distant) Women’s football. 

That's true. At the same time, they do have to pick and choose new features for marketing purposes. They have to market the new game and build hype around it.

They can list all the new features in a forum post for example, but when it comes to marketing they have to pick the largest features/improvements and market the game through those. When you do so, people will have expectations that those features are big and radical improvements to the game, when in reality they often aren't.

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2 minutes ago, (sic) said:

That's true. At the same time, they do have to pick and choose new features for marketing purposes. They have to market the new game and build hype around it.

They can list all the new features in a forum post for example, but when it comes to marketing they have to pick the largest features/improvements and market the game through those. When you do so, people will have expectations that those features are big and radical improvements to the game, when in reality they often aren't.

And it works for them. Although 90% of this thread are upset about the second feature video, I’d say 90% of the reaction on Twitter (to the FM and Miles posts) seems to be positive. People buzzing for the new game, people that probably don’t know this forum even exists. There’s a big market out there for FM and the vast vast majority will be looking forward to this game.

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4 hours ago, forameuss said:

And I agree with what @(sic) is saying, and would go as far as saying that it often doesn't really matter what club you're playing at, let alone what level.  It's just different names flashing by, slightly different looking stadiums, but the same game loop.

Looking at it from a game development prospective and remember they have to bring out a new game each year. Is it more important to have a team of developers tailoring your experience for every division in every country or is it better to save time and build a template that every club can use in every division and every country and tweak a few things.

You guys have to keep your expectations realistic.

Of it was a game that cones out ever 5 years and costs more then I'll agree with you. Time is money and the more time they spend in development the more the game will cost.

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4 hours ago, jmlima said:

If we are revising the inbox, can we have folders inside it where messages go to? Just separate them as 'press clips' 'internal' , 'board', etc and make them automatically arrive there. That would reduce the clutter ten-fold. I also have a sneaky feeling that, with folders, the inbox / social media could somehow be combined into a single entity thus reducing the screen maze effect by a bit. But hey, that's what I would like, I'm fully certain someone else will hate this as a concept.

The inbox needs to be moved to the Home page as it makes no sense we have a home page but 99% of the time we are just hitting the inbox.

I would much prefer the FM UI move towards a dashboard approach, where we have one page that shows a summary and the pertinent information of the other modules and we click into them to access more detailed information and perform management tasks. I have to read email all the time for work, I hate that when I play FM I am playing email simulator all over again.

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44 minutes ago, Powermonger said:

The inbox needs to be moved to the Home page as it makes no sense we have a home page but 99% of the time we are just hitting the inbox.

I would much prefer the FM UI move towards a dashboard approach, where we have one page that shows a summary and the pertinent information of the other modules and we click into them to access more detailed information and perform management tasks. I have to read email all the time for work, I hate that when I play FM I am playing email simulator all over again.

I was going to suggest the same thing. Although with the Staff Meetings now moved away from the inbox i expect there to be much less emails.

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I read something here that is key: Press Conferences should be represented a bit better in FM.

Aren't we talking about this for 13 years straight?

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7 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

This is kind of what they are trying to do with DD. The response was this is not new.

 

last year recruitment meeting had its own screen and I guess the new staff meeting will as well.

iMO, staff meeting stuff was hard to find. I would miss a lot of the advice about certain players daily and only would see these things in my inbox when the time came. It go to a point where I was checking for advice on a daily basics so this meeting will be a help. I just hope that the AI is improved with it so that the advice are more useful than not.

The negative response was more to do with the way it was announced. People werent unhappy that they made changes to the DD, same with the staff meetings, they just wanted AI/logic improvements as well. In the blogs topic i spoke more about my thoughts on that but I think it's a real positive change, one that should massively reduce the use of the inbox and instead make the game more interactive and immersive. 

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4 hours ago, Platinum said:

People werent unhappy that they made changes to the DD, same with the staff meetings, they just wanted AI/logic improvements as well.

It's the same every year though. "We have improved AI/logic" isn't a headline feature. That's not to say it isn't important - it absolutely is and what long-term fans want. It's just not a headline feature. Every year we have the attention grabbing new features. Every year we also have AI improvements, ME improvements etc. regardless of whether something specific was announced or not. Just because it's not a headline feature announcement, doesn't mean nothing was done to it.

We may even get to know more if there's a ME footage blog/video. The pinned topic already tells us that there was some work done on the Match AI side of things.

Quote

A new animation engine elevates Matchdays with far most realistic dribbling and player movement. Our brand-new pressing system brings a new level of intelligence, unlocking smarter decision making and realism. The new Wide Centre Back role replicates the latest tactical innovation allowing you to turn defence into attack. 

 

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16 hours ago, XaW said:

I agree, but how to select what parts should be realistic and what should be gameified? It would be a very different answer depending on who you'd ask. Just look at the varied discussions in here...

Yup, absolutely.  That's the age-old problem that comes with inviting the kind of feedback SI do.

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16 hours ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

You seem to be missing a completely updated animation engine that finally splits the player's movements from the 2D limitations they were under previously, meaning a much wider variety of player movement and actions, which, if you've looked into the ME, would have a massive impact on how the game plays.

I still, and only play, in 2D. I absolutely hate the 3D, looks nothing like 'football' and would rather see the dots and use my imagination.

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22 minutes ago, davehanson said:

I still, and only play, in 2D. I absolutely hate the 3D, looks nothing like 'football' and would rather see the dots and use my imagination.

That's separate from the 2D view, however. Previously, the players were restricted to only movement within their dot, which restricted what they were able to do on the pitch. Now that is no longer the case, it'll allow for better movement, dribbling, etc, by players, and so will make the ME better for those using the 2D view too.

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Can you explain how it will make the 2D better? From reading the blog it is all about moving the 3D engine away from the 2D discs they were on, thus allowing the players to have more 'flexibility of movement and make them more realistic touches on the ball'.

I honestly can't see any info in the blog about how the 2D engine will be better so wondering where you are getting that info from, have I missed something?

BTW, I am not concerned about the 2D being better - I am perfectly happy with it. As I said, for me, I enjoy watching those dots - far too long playing this game with dots to switch to 3D.

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24 minutes ago, davehanson said:

Can you explain how it will make the 2D better? From reading the blog it is all about moving the 3D engine away from the 2D discs they were on, thus allowing the players to have more 'flexibility of movement and make them more realistic touches on the ball'.

I honestly can't see any info in the blog about how the 2D engine will be better so wondering where you are getting that info from, have I missed something?

BTW, I am not concerned about the 2D being better - I am perfectly happy with it. As I said, for me, I enjoy watching those dots - far too long playing this game with dots to switch to 3D.

2d and 3d use the same match engine. What you are referring to is the graphical representation of the match engine which can be either 2d or 3d. Before the match engine worked on a 2d disc which limited what players could do. Now it uses a 3d disc which increases the options of what players can do. Whether you decide to view the match engine in 3d or 2d wont change that.

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7 minutes ago, Platinum said:

2d and 3d use the same match engine. What you are referring to is the graphical representation of the match engine which can be either 2d or 3d. Before the match engine worked on a 2d disc which limited what players could do. Now it uses a 3d disc which increases the options of what players can do. Whether you decide to view the match engine in 3d or 2d wont change that.

Okay, but I am still confused. So, I understand that there will be improvements to the ME every year, that is almost a given that SI will continually work on it. That is great. I am, however, very happy with the ME is FM21. It is the best one, IMO, ever. I was very dissapointed in the ME for FM20 and 21 was a huge step forward. If they have improved on that then great. 

But I still don't get the animation bit. As a 2D user I won't see any improvement - will I? I don't see how they can? And, as I said I am not bothered by that - again the 2D is perfectly fine for me. 

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14 hours ago, DarJ said:

Looking at it from a game development prospective and remember they have to bring out a new game each year. Is it more important to have a team of developers tailoring your experience for every division in every country or is it better to save time and build a template that every club can use in every division and every country and tweak a few things.

You guys have to keep your expectations realistic.

Of it was a game that cones out ever 5 years and costs more then I'll agree with you. Time is money and the more time they spend in development the more the game will cost.

Ah, but this is a rather fundamental issue. Let's say you have a game that features and historical period and, on the same period, allows you play as a Roman Caesar or a Celt Chieftain. Now, what would you say if that same represented those two leaders options as the same, their form of government as essentially the same, the feedback from their advisors as the same, they way they procure strategic options as the same and their people's reactions as the same? Would that be a correct way of portraying these two leaders?

In what concerns football cultures, that's what we get at present in FM. I've pointed in another thread, the issue here was expanding massively the game (to attract sales) but never allowing for what was needed to make this expansion work correctly. Yes you get rules, of course you get mostly correct rules, but since people are hammering about 'experience' and 'immersion' , in there it fails big time.

Of course, the correct answer to this is to just point me to the Steam sales ranks, so I'll just shut up.

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46 minutes ago, davehanson said:

Okay, but I am still confused. So, I understand that there will be improvements to the ME every year, that is almost a given that SI will continually work on it. That is great. I am, however, very happy with the ME is FM21. It is the best one, IMO, ever. I was very dissapointed in the ME for FM20 and 21 was a huge step forward. If they have improved on that then great. 

But I still don't get the animation bit. As a 2D user I won't see any improvement - will I? I don't see how they can? And, as I said I am not bothered by that - again the 2D is perfectly fine for me. 

The Match Engine does all the calculations, and serves up something that can be visualised, either by the 3D or 2D visual engines.

Metaphorically, the Match Engine is a big bag of shopping full of ingredients.  The 3D and 2D engines are chefs, both with very different recipes to make, but both with the same list of ingredients.  Improving the match engine would be like improving all of those ingredients in the bag.  That benefits both chefs, even if they're cooking the same recipes. 

Or something, maybe lost my way a bit there. 

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3 minutes ago, forameuss said:

The Match Engine does all the calculations, and serves up something that can be visualised, either by the 3D or 2D visual engines.

Metaphorically, the Match Engine is a big bag of shopping full of ingredients.  The 3D and 2D engines are chefs, both with very different recipes to make, but both with the same list of ingredients.  Improving the match engine would be like improving all of those ingredients in the bag.  That benefits both chefs, even if they're cooking the same recipes. 

Or something, maybe lost my way a bit there. 

That's a good example, most of all since it's almost lunch time.

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54 minutes ago, davehanson said:

Okay, but I am still confused. So, I understand that there will be improvements to the ME every year, that is almost a given that SI will continually work on it. That is great. I am, however, very happy with the ME is FM21. It is the best one, IMO, ever. I was very dissapointed in the ME for FM20 and 21 was a huge step forward. If they have improved on that then great. 

But I still don't get the animation bit. As a 2D user I won't see any improvement - will I? I don't see how they can? And, as I said I am not bothered by that - again the 2D is perfectly fine for me. 

I think you are missing a piece of the puzzle here, and I'll try to explain as best I can. The match engine is NOT anything visible on the screen. The match engine runs behind the scenes and is where the players decide what to do and when, based on their attributes. On top of that you have a graphical engine, this this gets instructions from the match engine to translate into something the user can look at. So the graphical engine uses the available animations and tries to give as best as possible representation of what the match engine has decided. So either you see it in 2d or 3d, the same match engine has decided what happens. The 2d, that uses the dots will interpret it as best possible and show it with dots, while the 3d will use more animations and in a more 3d environment.

If I have understood it correctly, the "disc" was a 2d plane that limited what the players could do with the ball, but now the players have another dimension to work in and that will make the movements more natural. Especially the "ice skating" that sometimes happen in FM21 (and much more in previous versions), where the legs don't actually touch the pitch, but slides like they had on skates in an ice rink.

Edit: Maybe @forameuss explained it better...

Edited by XaW
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3 hours ago, jmlima said:

Let's say you have a game that features and historical period and, on the same period, allows you play as a Roman Caesar or a Celt Chieftain. Now, what would you say if that same represented those two leaders options as the same, their form of government as essentially the same, the feedback from their advisors as the same, they way they procure strategic options as the same and their people's reactions as the same? Would that be a correct way of portraying these two leaders?

That's different tho. In your example it's fundamental for gameplay while in FM it's not

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5 hours ago, XaW said:

I think you are missing a piece of the puzzle here, and I'll try to explain as best I can. The match engine is NOT anything visible on the screen. The match engine runs behind the scenes and is where the players decide what to do and when, based on their attributes. On top of that you have a graphical engine, this this gets instructions from the match engine to translate into something the user can look at. So the graphical engine uses the available animations and tries to give as best as possible representation of what the match engine has decided. So either you see it in 2d or 3d, the same match engine has decided what happens. The 2d, that uses the dots will interpret it as best possible and show it with dots, while the 3d will use more animations and in a more 3d environment.

If I have understood it correctly, the "disc" was a 2d plane that limited what the players could do with the ball, but now the players have another dimension to work in and that will make the movements more natural. Especially the "ice skating" that sometimes happen in FM21 (and much more in previous versions), where the legs don't actually touch the pitch, but slides like they had on skates in an ice rink.

Edit: Maybe @forameuss explained it better...

No, you both explained it very well,  thank you.

 

It is just the bit in bold. I get that the 3D animations will be better, no issues there. But, as a 2D user this won't make a blind bit of difference to me, will it? I understand that the ME has been improved so players will now make better decisions etc, but the actual animation improvements will not affect me playing in 2D?

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10 minutes ago, davehanson said:

No, you both explained it very well,  thank you.

 

It is just the bit in bold. I get that the 3D animations will be better, no issues there. But, as a 2D user this won't make a blind bit of difference to me, will it? I understand that the ME has been improved so players will now make better decisions etc, but the actual animation improvements will not affect me playing in 2D?

In the 3D engine the "under the hood" changes will be visible through animation of the players. In 2D, id guess, we wont see much of a difference if at all (apart from what the under the hood does to player movement/interaction) Graphically it will be very similar to last year. Someone with more knowledge of the changes may come along and correct me. 

Edited by jimbo22
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7 minutes ago, davehanson said:

No, you both explained it very well,  thank you.

 

It is just the bit in bold. I get that the 3D animations will be better, no issues there. But, as a 2D user this won't make a blind bit of difference to me, will it? I understand that the ME has been improved so players will now make better decisions etc, but the actual animation improvements will not affect me playing in 2D?

No really, but since they have more options with how the players act, the choices will be better and more real. So it translate into how the 2d will play out, even if the actual animation probably won't look much different. The final answer will be in the release though, so you could try the demo that should be available around release.

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1 hour ago, davehanson said:

No, you both explained it very well,  thank you.

 

It is just the bit in bold. I get that the 3D animations will be better, no issues there. But, as a 2D user this won't make a blind bit of difference to me, will it? I understand that the ME has been improved so players will now make better decisions etc, but the actual animation improvements will not affect me playing in 2D?

Something that we see a lot of in real football is players is players pivoting on the ball and passing it backwards to a team-mate if the space for them to move into is closed down. In previous years, it wasn’t possible for players for to do this in FM because of the fact that they were tied to the 2D disc. As a result, they would often have to make decisions with a low probability of success such as crossing the ball into the box with just a single team-mate to aim at.

That's a quote from Match Experience blog post. It's what sold the game for me pretty much, as I have seen this issue happening far too many times in game.

 

So while you wont see visual changes if you use 2D view, those changes will have an impact on the ME and player behavior.

Edited by (sic)
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2 hours ago, XaW said:

No really, but since they have more options with how the players act, the choices will be better and more real. So it translate into how the 2d will play out, even if the actual animation probably won't look much different. The final answer will be in the release though, so you could try the demo that should be available around release.

 

49 minutes ago, (sic) said:

Something that we see a lot of in real football is players is players pivoting on the ball and passing it backwards to a team-mate if the space for them to move into is closed down. In previous years, it wasn’t possible for players for to do this in FM because of the fact that they were tied to the 2D disc. As a result, they would often have to make decisions with a low probability of success such as crossing the ball into the box with just a single team-mate to aim at.

That's a quote from Match Experience blog post. It's what sold the game for me pretty much, as I have seen this issue happening far too many times in game.

 

So while you wont see visual changes if you use 2D view, those changes will have an impact on the ME and player behavior.

Thank you both. 

To be honest I will buy FM22 at some point, I have no doubt in that. But I am enjoying FM21 so much at the moment with a Forest save that I honestly have no immediate desire to change. For me a lot of the 'features' that have been talked about so far are not enough for me to go and update my version at this point in time.

Maybe, as you have said with the demo when I try that, and with the feedback on here, I will change my mind and buy it immediately, but for me FM21 is almost perfect with the way I have it.

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6 minutes ago, davehanson said:

Thank you both. 

To be honest I will buy FM22 at some point, I have no doubt in that. But I am enjoying FM21 so much at the moment with a Forest save that I honestly have no immediate desire to change. For me a lot of the 'features' that have been talked about so far are not enough for me to go and update my version at this point in time.

Maybe, as you have said with the demo when I try that, and with the feedback on here, I will change my mind and buy it immediately, but for me FM21 is almost perfect with the way I have it.

If you are unsure, I'd say give the demo a spin. Anyone might say the love it or hate it, but you don't know if their reasons for it matches your own. The demo is usually the full game, but only for 6 months of in-game time, so the only thing not really available is the long term developments and such. So if it's the same thing this time (and I have no idea if it is or not), that should give you an idea of how you like it.

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1 hour ago, davehanson said:

 

Thank you both. 

To be honest I will buy FM22 at some point, I have no doubt in that. But I am enjoying FM21 so much at the moment with a Forest save that I honestly have no immediate desire to change. For me a lot of the 'features' that have been talked about so far are not enough for me to go and update my version at this point in time.

Maybe, as you have said with the demo when I try that, and with the feedback on here, I will change my mind and buy it immediately, but for me FM21 is almost perfect with the way I have it.

The features are definitely lack luster but I think the new dribbling and animations along with changes to pressing will take the ME to a new level much like FM21 did to FM20. After FM 21, I can’t even play FM20…

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