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Football Manager 2022 Headline Features - In The Studio Part 2


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8 hours ago, Manjusaka said:

I remember last year the beta ME looked promising then they said there was a bug about morale giving the player an advantage. After that fix the ME felt different. So this year I would take the ME show with a pinch of salt.

Absolutely, the early beta last year was an absolute blast (even if it wasn't as intended :lol:)

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I hope somebody is reading this feedback.

A misreading of the room - deadline day revamp #16.3?! more meetings with nonsense-spouting AI staff?! - so spectacular that it borders on a wind-up.

Who or what is informing the way the development team spend their time?

We are talking about a top-selling commercial product here, not a bootstrapped indie outfit.

 

I would be really clear with the team - JUST FOCUS ON ONE MEANINGFUL IMPROVEMENT FOR FM2023. PICK IT AND GO ALL IN. Graphical overhaul? Match day experience? A complete rewrite of media interaction? 101 marginal improvements towards immersion? 
 

J u s t n o t t h i s.

exasperated.

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Doesn't seem to be much in the way of new stuff so far, couple of bits of info either shuffled around or presented differently. Data Hub sounds interesting, but that's really the only new feature I've heard about so far that IS of any real interest, and it could also be a case of old info presented in a new way. 

Then there's the bad news about Classic mode disappearing for Steam users (and some others). 

I'm one of the loyal fans (mugs) who buy the game every year, but it's been a very stripped down build up this year. I'd even struggle to say evolution rather than revolution, as it doesn't even look like it's that. 

I mean, I'm 100% sure it'll still be a great game, they always are, but I was expecting a little more. Wait and see I suppose. 

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5 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I'm one of the loyal fans (mugs) who buy the game every year, but it's been a very stripped down build up this year. I'd even struggle to say evolution rather than revolution, as it doesn't even look like it's that. 

Totally agree on the build up this year. I can’t really remember the timings of last year, but I’m sure it was much more than one post a week at this stage.

I can see why they’d want to try out a new approach to promoting the game but it just feels like silence. I really hope they increase the amount of times they share stuff in the coming weeks. Even if it’s one change a day it would keep me ticking over and help to try and build some excitement 

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4 hours ago, warlock said:

Any chance we could get some cheese with all this whine?

If this were a free game you would be spot on. But a $50 spreadsheet game with marginal graphics has to deliver more to justify the cost to the consumer

Here are a couple features I would like to see, criticism welcome

I would like the game to be far more moddable. For example, let people mod the ME to better reflect the style of football for a specific country. Modders could build realistic stadiums.

Lets be able to change certain rules after each season. Which rules? Number of players on the sub bench. Tackling discipline by the AI refs..make it stricter or lesser. Bigger or smaller squad sizes. Allow custom pitch sizes. Adopt a foreign player limit for your league. Basically anything that would allow for league evolution. Are the rules of football the same in 2021 as they were in 2010?

Make an option to make the manager unfireable.

Allow the human player to decide about investments in youth and training facilities consistent with the team budget.

 

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2 hours ago, Bababui said:

If this were a free game you would be spot on. But a $50 spreadsheet game with marginal graphics has to deliver more to justify the cost to the consumer

How many hours of gameplay does that $50 get you? If it's in the hundreds, then that can't be that many forms of entertainment which deliver more value for money.

2 hours ago, Bababui said:

I would like the game to be far more moddable. For example, let people mod the ME to better reflect the style of football for a specific country. Modders could build realistic stadiums.

Coca-Cola won't simply reveal their secret formula to some random Joe (or Jane) who wants to modify it for their own taste. I'd imagine there are similar issues why SI won't make the FM match engine moddable.

2 hours ago, Bababui said:

Lets be able to change certain rules after each season. Which rules? Number of players on the sub bench. Tackling discipline by the AI refs..make it stricter or lesser. Bigger or smaller squad sizes. Allow custom pitch sizes. Adopt a foreign player limit for your league. Basically anything that would allow for league evolution. Are the rules of football the same in 2021 as they were in 2010?

An interesting idea, I'm pretty sure SI's licensing agreements with the leagues would stop them from including this.

2 hours ago, Bababui said:

Allow the human player to decide about investments in youth and training facilities consistent with the team budget.

We're now venturing into Football Chairman territory, and SI have consistently said they won't go down that road for a game called Football Manager.

But if you want your feature requests to be heard, this is the place for them:

https://community.sigames.com/forums/forum/353-football-manager-feature-requests-pcmac/

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1 hour ago, BuzzR said:

 

There are no AI improvements - on or off the pitch,  as others said - what use do we have of a deadline revamp if the AI trades as bad as always ? What use there is for a "staff meeting" if the AI advice is as bad as it is now ? 

Worth noting that we’ve not seen the game yet nor seen all of the changes. So there may be improved AI off the pitch.

Although I’d say that improved off pitch AI is a biggy so I’d expect it to have been mentioned on one of those videos.

One big problem with open discussion with devs is how differing fans opinions are. For instance I have no interest in designing a stadium, watching training etc. So any open discussion wouldn’t necessarily  represent the community’s opinions.

Saying that; if they gave us an outline of what they were planning and allowed us to vote then it’s in our hands and we feel we’ve more of an input. Might be a better way to get community involvement whilst they still have control over the actual changes we can choose from

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6 minutes ago, Pezamaria said:

if they gave us an outline of what they were planning and allowed us to vote then it’s in our hands and we feel we’ve more of an input

The issue with that is that there are a lot more people that play the game other than those of us that are on the forum regularly so it still wouldn't be representative of the people that play the ha actually want 

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13 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Yea I’ve compromised in the last few versions. I only use the DOF transfer target feature to get players. It brings me down to the level of the AI somewhat. 

This is something I incorporate into most of my saves anyway. I try to never use the “player search” feature. Any player I sign has to be recommended by a staff member like DoF or Scouts, or agents/direct approach from the player. It adds a nice level of realism as opposed to shopping for footballer on the Amazon-like player search screen :lol: 

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I also struggle with these videos Miles is in because (and possibly rightly) he talks in such glowing terms about everything. Some of it you can understand - the facegens are awful but I suspect they're a technical nightmare - but he'll be doing a watchalong and take 30 seconds to point out a new "+" icon that appears next to a player when they're injured.

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Well that was... nothingness. I was for a complete revamp of set pieces, considering how big their role is now getting in reality. I was pleased to hear in episode one, gegen press will be nerfed cant plug and play with random players and make it work. 

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19 minutes ago, Pezamaria said:

Worth noting that we’ve not seen the game yet nor seen all of the changes. So there may be improved AI off the pitch.

Although I’d say that improved off pitch AI is a biggy so I’d expect it to have been mentioned on one of those videos.

I do agree that we didn't see the full game yet.. but as you also said they would make a big deal out of it- if there were any improvements regarding AI off the pitch. So most likely nothing is changed. Hope I am wrong, hahahah...! fingers crossed and all that. :lol:

27 minutes ago, Pezamaria said:

One big problem with open discussion with devs is how differing fans opinions are. For instance I have no interest in designing a stadium, watching training etc. So any open discussion wouldn’t necessarily  represent the community’s opinions.

Saying that; if they gave us an outline of what they were planning and allowed us to vote then it’s in our hands and we feel we’ve more of an input. Might be a better way to get community involvement whilst they still have control over the actual changes we can choose from

I understand this aspect as there are so many voices and so many opinions and obviously it's their product and at the end of the day they could do what they want with it and we can buy it or not.

But I think a decent conversation starting with some basic roadmap of what's ahead could be a start. And yes there are fans suggestions that are polarized - some want feature X or Y, some don't - but I do think there are some aspects that a vast majority would like to see improved : set pieces, off the pitch AI, on the pitch AI.

Going to the suggestion forums - and the bugs forum by the way, cause there are bugs that are inherited from older versions - we could build some kind of  "must be improved " list that most of us agree with. Then a conversation with devs could at least give us some kind of clarity - are they on the same page with us ? The roadmap is close to what we are looking for ? This could help them also..

 

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Miles posted up a couple of weeks back about changes at the studio & people now working from home with Covid. They mentioned certain things didn't make it into FM21 because of the pandemic.  I think it was to be expected there would be nothing ground breaking this year. If they just improved on FM21 with data updates, I'd be happy for 25 quid  

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2 часа назад, CFuller сказал:

How many hours of gameplay does that $50 get you? If it's in the hundreds, then that can't be that many forms of entertainment which deliver more value for money.

that many hours can give you fm21, fm20, fm19 etc. The thing  here that each year they provide less and less updates that worth that kind of money, as this year we have design change of deadline day (which already was in the game) and staff meeting (which already was in the game) among "headline features", do you really think that this kind of updates worth AAA game price tag?

 

This game become fifa series, no real competitors, sales on decent level, each year cosmetic changes with data base update.

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1 minute ago, FedAt said:

that many hours can give you fm21, fm20, fm19 etc. The thing  here that each year they provide less and less updates that worth that kind of money, as this year we have design change of deadline day (which already was in the game) and staff meeting (which already was in the game) among "headline features", do you really think that this kind of updates worth AAA game price tag?

 

This game become fifa series, no real competitors, sales on decent level, each year cosmetic changes with data base update.

It doesn't have a AAA title price tag, at least here in the UK it doesn't. It's £25, no idea what FIFA 22 is, £50? then DLC on top?

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3 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Miles posted up a couple of weeks back about changes at the studio & people now working from home with Covid. They mentioned certain things didn't make it into FM21 because of the pandemic.  I think it was to be expected there would be nothing ground breaking this year. If they just improved on FM21 with data updates, I'd be happy for 25 quid  

I thought that was a feel good video.. like " hey , this year we are better - we know how to work from home better , we've change to agile " etc. Even in the first video he said they finished the game earlier. 

Anyway... I could go for an " this is a fix year : we've solved 90% of bugs and here is an database update " for half the price. " See you next year for a full new and much improved version".

6 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

It doesn't have a AAA title price tag, at least here in the UK it doesn't. It's £25, no idea what FIFA 22 is, £50? then DLC on top?

It's 55euros on Steam. ( 49,49 pre-purchase ).

 

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6 минут назад, Johnny Ace сказал:

It doesn't have a AAA title price tag, at least here in the UK it doesn't. It's £25, no idea what FIFA 22 is, £50? then DLC on top?

sorry but I didn't found anywhere £25 for this game, I saw prices started from £35, and in my region, for example, Far cry 6 cost basically the same as FM22.

And yes, fifa 22 is worth double as fm22, but I didn't mean to compare it in prices but in general approach to updates.

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3 минуты назад, BuzzR сказал:

It's 55euros on Steam. ( 49,49 pre-purchase ).

 

That's what I'm talking about, if fm22 cost around 15-20 dollars, I have no problem with those kind of updates. But I just don't think that design changes cost that much. And yes, I saw wide cd feature and changes in pressing, and animation in 3d mode, but if the company seriously present design changes of UI as "headline feature" I have big doubts that they have a lot to show.

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There have been massive improvements under the hood from fm20 to fm21. Most people won't see this because they never use the pre-game editor. Those changes have a big effect how the game calculates as a whole. If you use the editor on a daily basis you know that. If they just continue this way for fm22, the game will be much better already:thup: 

If people only go for shiny presentation without a deep and logical calculation, there are other manager-simulations available. 

 

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40 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Miles posted up a couple of weeks back about changes at the studio & people now working from home with Covid. They mentioned certain things didn't make it into FM21 because of the pandemic.  I think it was to be expected there would be nothing ground breaking this year. If they just improved on FM21 with data updates, I'd be happy for 25 quid  

But if they just did a data update then why charge £25? Hell, the community does it for free.

As I said a few posts up, there appears nothing new in the game, other than the data hub, which I am not sure how much use it will be anyway, and a new wide centre back - which is irrelevant to me as I can't remember the last time I played a 3 man defence. Will probably pick this years up when it is on sale for under £10. 

 

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41 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

It doesn't have a AAA title price tag, at least here in the UK it doesn't. It's £25, no idea what FIFA 22 is, £50? then DLC on top?

Fifa for PC was £35 last time I looked. Nothing like £50 anyway. 

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2 minutes ago, davehanson said:

But if they just did a data update then why charge £25? Hell, the community does it for free.

As I said a few posts up, there appears nothing new in the game, other than the data hub, which I am not sure how much use it will be anyway, and a new wide centre back - which is irrelevant to me as I can't remember the last time I played a 3 man defence. Will probably pick this years up when it is on sale for under £10. 

 

I'd take the official data over user made any day of the week & I didn't say just data updates. The ME has improvements & loads of other things half of us probably wouldn't even notice. I wouldn't pay £50 for it but 25's a damn good deal 

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Just now, Johnny Ace said:

I'd take the official data over user made any day of the week & I didn't say just data updates. The ME has improvements & loads of other things half of us probably wouldn't even notice. I wouldn't pay £50 for it but 25's a damn good deal 

Why? Genuinely curious as top why you think an official one is better than a community one?

If we don't notice improvements then how are they improvements?

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7 minutes ago, davehanson said:

But if they just did a data update then why charge £25? Hell, the community does it for free.

As I said a few posts up, there appears nothing new in the game, other than the data hub, which I am not sure how much use it will be anyway, and a new wide centre back - which is irrelevant to me as I can't remember the last time I played a 3 man defence. Will probably pick this years up when it is on sale for under £10. 

 

You can’t really say there’s nothing new in the game other than those bits. Wait until they tell us a little more, there might be some pleasant surprises.

I’m sure in video 1 they said they’d changed transfers, and they didn’t explain it fully in video 2. We saw there’s a value range provided now - could be loads more on that side.

I am being optimistic yes, but we do need to wait and see

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1 minute ago, Pezamaria said:

You can’t really say there’s nothing new in the game other than those bits. Wait until they tell us a little more, there might be some pleasant surprises.

I’m sure in video 1 they said they’d changed transfers, and they didn’t explain it fully in video 2. We saw there’s a value range provided now - could be loads more on that side.

I am being optimistic yes, but we do need to wait and see

Yeah, I'm not saying there have not been changes - let me be clear I really like FM21. Just, for me at the moment, there isn't enough of a difference between the 2 for me to justify spending money on a new version. I play the game loads still, have recorded 1200 hours on FM21, so value for money is exceptional, no argument. 

I guess it just seems to me that most of these 'new features' now are the same, or very similar, to things we have has before - just repackaged under a different title, where the things that could really do with a complete rework (set-pieces, AI transfers) are just not done and it gets frustrating. 

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23 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

There have been massive improvements under the hood from fm20 to fm21. Most people won't see this because they never use the pre-game editor. Those changes have a big effect how the game calculates as a whole. If you use the editor on a daily basis you know that. If they just continue this way for fm22, the game will be much better already:thup: 

If people only go for shiny presentation without a deep and logical calculation, there are other manager-simulations available. 

There should be improvements under the hood with every iteration, as they are selling a new release each year.. so I don't think these improvements could be the "headlines" for a new release.

Changing the way the stamina is accounted into the pressing logic it's a very good thing, but at the end of the day why wasn't it taking into consideration till now? So it's a correction to a flawed implementation . It's an improvement - an important one -but you know .. it's not a feature :)

Nobody wants empty shiny stuff. But the way the " new staff meeting " , " boom! doomsday ! "  sorry.. "deadline day" were presented .. they are just shiny stuff. 

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6 minutes ago, davehanson said:

Yeah, I'm not saying there have not been changes - let me be clear I really like FM21. Just, for me at the moment, there isn't enough of a difference between the 2 for me to justify spending money on a new version. I play the game loads still, have recorded 1200 hours on FM21, so value for money is exceptional, no argument. 

I guess it just seems to me that most of these 'new features' now are the same, or very similar, to things we have has before - just repackaged under a different title, where the things that could really do with a complete rework (set-pieces, AI transfers) are just not done and it gets frustrating. 

Yea I get it, and agree. I think if they’d not made such a big deal over those videos and calling the stuff “headline” features we’d be happier (although probably still waiting for headline features to be announced lol)

I think they’re a victim of their own hype. Two videos, silence in between, nicely put together, big names (Fabrizio & Wilder) and the features aren’t mind blowing. Not that I expect mind blowing btw, but the build up should fit the reveal 

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vor 1 Minute schrieb BuzzR:

There should be improvements under the hood with every iteration, as they are selling a new release each year.. so I don't think these improvements could be the "headlines" for a new release.

Which is the case, more than enough.

vor 2 Minuten schrieb BuzzR:

Changing the way the stamina is accounted into the pressing logic it's a very good thing, but at the end of the day why wasn't it taking into consideration till now? So it's a correction to a flawed implementation . It's an improvement - an important one -but you know .. it's not a feature :)

What else do you expect? You can't expect a revolution of a game that get's released every year. I personally prefer improvements of existing over new features. As I said, most improvements I'm always exciting about never made it into the feature-trailer, because they aren't "exciting" enough.

vor 5 Minuten schrieb BuzzR:

Nobody wants empty shiny stuff. But the way the " new staff meeting " , " boom! doomsday ! "  sorry.. "deadline day" were presented .. they are just shiny stuff. 

I'm confused. Is shiny now good or not? So deadline-day is shiny and new and it's not good? I mean they could have presented all the small things under the roof which I personally often see as a "feature" too. 

 

In the end I'm just don't understand how peope judge a game from 2 trailers.

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8 minutes ago, Spedding said:

fifa 22 standard on steam is £50 on steam 

And? The post I was quoting said that FM22 is £25. On Steam, if you want to compare prices on there and there alone, FM22 is £36. 

On Shopto (which is an official supplier) FM22 is £25 and Fifa is £35 (or was last time I checked).

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4 минуты назад, Daveincid сказал:

So deadline-day is shiny and new and it's not good?

How it is new? We didn't have deadline day before, with all the same thing but in different design?

 

4 минуты назад, Daveincid сказал:

In the end I'm just don't understand how peope judge a game from 2 trailers.

And how people suppose to judge it if there no other info? Do you really think that if they had something bigger they wouldn't announce it? They created two videos with famous guests to announce something like staff meeting (which, again, was in the game), and you think that more interesting and bigger feature will be announce in different way, somewhere on a twitter or in blog post?

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26 minutes ago, davehanson said:

Why? Genuinely curious as top why you think an official one is better than a community one?

If we don't notice improvements then how are they improvements?

Because of the extensive scouting SI do to make sure their work is accurate. User made is just people watching players on TV & souping up wondkerkids

ME changes I'll notice for sure but I won't notice rule changes in Finland, but if I ever fancy a career in Finland, things will be accurate 

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vor 1 Minute schrieb FedAt:

How it is new? We didn't have deadline day before, with all the same thing but in different design?

"Shiny" - That's what people seems to want at first?  Do you know if the mechanics under the roof is the same how deadline-day works? I bet you don't.

vor 2 Minuten schrieb FedAt:

And how people suppose to judge it if there no other info?

IMO you can't really judge the game before the Beta drops, simply because you can't play it.

Anyway, I made my points clear. 

I'm done here^^

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I think with pre-release material for games its only good for the right kind of person. I'm one of the people for whom, with any game, I need to avoid it like a plague. A few too many Peter Molyneux games and then the nemesis system from the first Middle Earth game ruined preview content for me. 

With FM and sports games in general there is always going to be a limited amount that can be done, and somewhat frustratingly we're still waiting on the entire industry to make a big step forward with AI. It feels years overdue now. 

When it comes to the data side though, there is a lot more scrutiny involved for things we submit, a lot more information is provided by SI as well before beginning. Its not perfect but the prime example is I saw a legends FM Database knocking around. George Best had a 17 for natural fitness in it. I never downloaded it, but even if it had been paired with a professionalism attribute of 1 it wouldn't have been an accurate reflection of Best. 

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4 минуты назад, Daveincid сказал:

IMO you can't really judge the game before the Beta drops, simply because you can't play it.

 

so people first have to buy the game to decide whether it worth those money 😂

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1 minute ago, FedAt said:

so people first have to buy the game to decide whether it worth those money 😂

Or wait for release and play the demo for free (I assume it will be the same as last year). That will let you play 6 months in game time to make a decision. The beta is only for pre-orders, a common thing nowadays, but if you are on the fence, then you should wait until you can try the demo at release.

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vor 1 Minute schrieb FedAt:

so people first have to buy the game to decide whether it worth those money 😂

- check the forum feedback when it's released

- watch youtube-videos once they drop

- read tests on fansites

Usually there is even a demo released where you can test the game for free for half a season....

 

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3 minutes ago, FedAt said:

so people first have to buy the game to decide whether it worth those money 😂

I’m pretty sure they will release a free 6 month demo like most years, to accommodate those that are unsure on whether to buy it

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1 minute ago, Freakiie said:

Now I'm curious about all these games where you perfectly know what you're getting, without actually buying and playing the game yourself first. :lol:

It’s good that there is an option to demo FM first. I’ve bought other games before from other series and been gutted with the them. 

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The new Battlefield for example, I’m glad I’ve been able to play the beta for free, as I now don’t have to waste £40 on it to realise it’s rubbish.

some of my friends like FIFA too (it’s not for me) and they got to play a 10 hour free beta to try it out and most of them aren’t going to buy it. 
 

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This is the first time I've felt disillusioned with CM/FM, and feel there's become a disconnect between SI and the userbase. 

I don't expect lots of shiny new things, but so far, data hub aside, I don't see anything anyone has actually wanted, at least in any form of numbers. I think I've used "deadline day" once, and realised it's been the same old questions, same old pointlessness. If DD had been advertised as part of a huge improvement in transfers (see @Daveincid's work!) I'd be excited.

 

Ultimately, I think SI are slowly becoming an EA - and I don't mean that as a compliment.

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28 минут назад, XaW сказал:

Or wait for release and play the demo for free (I assume it will be the same as last year). That will let you play 6 months in game time to make a decision. The beta is only for pre-orders, a common thing nowadays, but if you are on the fence, then you should wait until you can try the demo at release.

yeah, I thought about a demo, but the person I quoted said about beta, so that not really make sense, 'cause, as you mentioned, you have to buy the game to get the beta.
And I don't want to be negative or offend anybody, but on this forum a lot of people who buy this game no matter what, and who praises si and Miles no matter what, but I think you have to take off "pink glasses" and judge promotion and updates of fm22 and what changes this game got for the past few years in more serious manner.

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1 minute ago, Malicious Penguin said:

This is the first time I've felt disillusioned with CM/FM, and feel there's become a disconnect between SI and the userbase. 

I don't expect lots of shiny new things, but so far, data hub aside, I don't see anything anyone has actually wanted, at least in any form of numbers. I think I've used "deadline day" once, and realised it's been the same old questions, same old pointlessness. If DD had been advertised as part of a huge improvement in transfers (see @Daveincid's work!) I'd be excited.

 

Reminds me of the Rafa Benitez quote, shortly before he left Valenica:

I was hoping for a sofa and they've brought me a lamp

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14 минут назад, Freakiie сказал:

Now I'm curious about all these games where you perfectly know what you're getting, without actually buying and playing the game yourself first. :lol:

initial issue was not to judge a game by two videos but to play it first, so, of course all the videos can't substitute game experience itself, but you have to decide first - spend money or not, and that decision you can make only by info that developers provided, and at this moment we're talking about pre-purchase, of course later there will be game reviews, user experience feedback etc., but for now we have only those two videos from developers.

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1 hour ago, davehanson said:

Fifa for PC was £35 last time I looked. Nothing like £50 anyway. 

If that game can be bought for £35 then FM 22 should be bought for at least £150. Honestly, I wouldn't pay even £5 for that scripted game.
As for the database ... the official one contains about 500,000 people. Those created by users contain a maximum of 15,000 additional people. As an idea, for 3 years I participated in supplementing the national database (over 5000 players and almost 1000 officials). Given the effort required to create a relatively small database, I think FM is really cheap.

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2 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

If that game can be bought for £35 then FM 22 should be bought for at least £150. Honestly, I wouldn't pay even £5 for that scripted game.
As for the database ... the official one contains about 500,000 people. Those created by users contain a maximum of 15,000 additional people. As an idea, for 3 years I participated in supplementing the national database (over 5000 players and almost 1000 officials). Given the effort required to create a relatively small database, I think FM is really cheap.

I don't play FIFA either, don't like it. however 31m people would disagree with us! The conversation was around the price of the two, not the quality. They are not that far off each other in terms of price. But, yes I agree, for value of money, imo, FM is far better.

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