Awful Attacking Positioning

[mss100]

My players seem to be entirely unable to hold the create space when in possession of the ball.

Kramaric (PI's: Stay Wider) and Amrabat (Stay Wider, Roam from Position) should be occupying the spaces either side of the ST, the channels. This would create more passing options for wingbacks and central midfielders. In the upcoming pictures, Kramaric is 10 and Rafinha is 3.

Kramaric standing on no.7 (Amrabat CM - Carillero).

Nice and close together taking away all hopes of possession. Kramaric will not attack the space beyond the ST (AF-A or CF-Su or PF-Su throughout).

Again Rafinha and Kramaric standing on top of each other. At this point I believe focus play right and left was ticked, as well as be more disciplined.

No support for wingbacks once again. Terrible understanding.

Finally! Some progress. However, if you look at the bottom, you will see Kramaric is now in the STCR position as a PF-D. Spacing is much better however.

 

For the life of me I cannot understand why the two wide AMC's can't figure out where to stand. At one point in the first half, the MR had the ball (Started with MR & ML before dropping back for better defensive shape) and Kramaric came all the way over to the RHS of the pitch instead of stretching the Mainz midfield. The 4-3-3 Mainz are set in offers nice big triangular spaces between CB, FB and MCL/R.

 

Why can't my players occupy these spaces? The tactic is fresh, just taken the job, first game in charge. Should I wait and see or is there something fundamentally wrong with the tactic or ME.

 

Editing to illustrate the positioning I would like to see as base line.

Edited September 30, 2021 by mss100
Showcase correct positions

[s0ni42]

Disciplined TI combined with three forwards all going forward don’t leave much space to work with.

i don’t have much experience in getting 10s to play wide. Have you tried making them AMR/L cutting inside? 

Edited September 30, 2021 by s0ni42

[Jack722]

6 hours ago, mss100 said:

My players seem to be entirely unable to hold the create space when in possession of the ball.

Kramaric (PI's: Stay Wider) and Amrabat (Stay Wider, Roam from Position) should be occupying the spaces either side of the ST, the channels. This would create more passing options for wingbacks and central midfielders. In the upcoming pictures, Kramaric is 10 and Rafinha is 3.

Kramaric standing on no.7 (Amrabat CM - Carillero).

Nice and close together taking away all hopes of possession. Kramaric will not attack the space beyond the ST (AF-A or CF-Su or PF-Su throughout).

Again Rafinha and Kramaric standing on top of each other. At this point I believe focus play right and left was ticked, as well as be more disciplined.

No support for wingbacks once again. Terrible understanding.

Finally! Some progress. However, if you look at the bottom, you will see Kramaric is now in the STCR position as a PF-D. Spacing is much better however.

 

For the life of me I cannot understand why the two wide AMC's can't figure out where to stand. At one point in the first half, the MR had the ball (Started with MR & ML before dropping back for better defensive shape) and Kramaric came all the way over to the RHS of the pitch instead of stretching the Mainz midfield. The 4-3-3 Mainz are set in offers nice big triangular spaces between CB, FB and MCL/R.

 

Why can't my players occupy these spaces? The tactic is fresh, just taken the job, first game in charge. Should I wait and see or is there something fundamentally wrong with the tactic or ME.

 

Editing to illustrate the positioning I would like to see as base line.

That positioning looks closer to AML/R to me.

Try inverted wingers and set them to sit narrower If needed.

Don't think you'll be able to do that with two 10s

[zabyl]

On 30.09.2021 at 15:59, mss100 said:

My players seem to be entirely unable to hold the create space when in possession of the ball.

Kramaric (PI's: Stay Wider) and Amrabat (Stay Wider, Roam from Position) should be occupying the spaces either side of the ST, the channels. This would create more passing options for wingbacks and central midfielders. In the upcoming pictures, Kramaric is 10 and Rafinha is 3.

What is the purpose of using wide attacking width+stay wider for double 10s on a narrow formation? If you want your double 10s to play on half spaces why don’t you use them as wide attackers? You want to force players on a narrow formation to play wide. Strange idea but probably it won’t work as you think.

 

On 30.09.2021 at 15:59, mss100 said:

and Rafinha is 3.

Kramaric standing on no.7 (Amrabat CM - Carillero).

Nice and close together taking away all hopes of possession. Kramaric will not attack the space beyond the ST (AF-A or CF-Su or PF-Su throughout).

Again Rafinha and Kramaric standing on top of each other. At this point I believe focus play right and left was ticked, as well as be more disciplined.

No support for wingbacks once again. Terrible

These images are not captured after attacking transtion. These are from build-up and transition. You must look for movements of your front three after attacking transition or in other words when most of your players are on opposition field and they have possession. AMCs start narrower and then they make movements what you want/force with role/duty/traits/PIs. 

 

On 30.09.2021 at 15:59, mss100 said:

Editing to illustrate the positioning I would like to see as base line.

If you want this shape, you should use double 10s as WF not CAM.

I wouldn’t use be more disciplined if I wanted to create space efficiently. 

Focus play down both flanks. Fine, but who can be isolated with these? Both WBs are on support? How can you overload flanks with them? Do you want to isolate Libero or 3 central attackers? What is the plan? Double 10s and one striker try to attack space created by who? Who can create space for 3 central attackers? What is the purpose of using wide attacking width with a narrow formation? 

I see only one attacking pattern. Libero sends ball to flanks and WBs cross to 3 central attackers.

Edited October 1, 2021 by zabyl

[mss100]

Zabyl, you haven't really offered any advice apart from use WF's. If I were to use wide forwards the defensive shape would not secure the middle as effectively. A 5-4-1 with a midfield box provides flexible cover over the wings and strong occupation of the centre. You ask about the purpose of wide attacking width and focus play instructions; these are designed to encourage wider occupation by the two 10's. Yes, this would be easier with AML/R but again the defensive positioning would not be as good. The two AMC's are directed to 'Stay Wider' and 'Roam from Position' to again encourage wider movement to create triangles with the MC's and WB's.

 

You are correct that these movements don't capture the attacking transition phase. However, I would still like my tactic to be effective in the building of attacks from the goalkeeper all the way to a shot at goal.

Perhaps I will continue with the three ST narrow system that seems to offer better offensive positioning. The concern here is of course a lack of penetration.

 

I will update this post to see how things develop as players become more familiar and perhaps new signings fit better.

[zabyl]

1 saat önce, mss100 said:

Zabyl, you haven't really offered any advice apart from use WF's. If I were to use wide forwards the defensive shape would not secure the middle as effectively. A 5-4-1 with a midfield box provides flexible cover over the wings and strong occupation of the centre. You ask about the purpose of wide attacking width and focus play instructions; these are designed to encourage wider occupation by the two 10's. Yes, this would be easier with AML/R but again the defensive positioning would not be as good. The two AMC's are directed to 'Stay Wider' and 'Roam from Position' to again encourage wider movement to create triangles with the MC's and WB's.

 

You are correct that these movements don't capture the attacking transition phase. However, I would still like my tactic to be effective in the building of attacks from the goalkeeper all the way to a shot at goal.

Perhaps I will continue with the three ST narrow system that seems to offer better offensive positioning. The concern here is of course a lack of penetration.

 

I will update this post to see how things develop as players become more familiar and perhaps new signings fit better.

These kind of tactics with only more advanced players are on attack, can’t work against every opposition. If I use this formation with your ideas, I would use both WBs on attack as CWB for overloading flanks with focus play, and change striker to a support one for creating different movements and attacking patterns. I would use a sitter (mostly DLP) and a runner (BWM) to get the balance on CM partnership. 

You don’t have to change the system you use. You can create pretty solid attacking football with setting roles/duties without complexity. You can try to get a balance when using roles/duties for the style you want, as a starting point. After that; you can make changes for different oppositions. 

Edited October 1, 2021 by zabyl

[Luizinho]

What role do people feel is best for a wide 10 in the AMR/L roles?

Inverted Winger/Advanced Playmaker on Support with Sit Narrower and Roam from Position?

[CARRERA]

@mss100 did you try move into channels PI instead of roam from position? Your striker however should be more static then and not occupy the half spaces like a poacher, F9 or TM (i think)

[zyfon5]

3 hours ago, Luizinho said:

What role do people feel is best for a wide 10 in the AMR/L roles?

Inverted Winger/Advanced Playmaker on Support with Sit Narrower and Roam from Position?

Trequartista can also work I suppose

[robot_skeleton]

Your frustrations have merit but looking at how the ME interprets this tactic I think you will have to change something to achieve what you want. Let's be clear with that: you not only want the two attackers in attacking midfield to be in the spot you drew but you also want to achieve it with roles in the AM strata and not wide ones. I feel like it could work but maybe not to the extent to how you would want, but still pretty close.

Before you fix the positioning I feel like you need to address some more important issues.

1.a You are attacking with two AMs and a striker. Both of your AMs are attacking the space in front, but you also have an AF that is attacking the space in front. You see what I mean? Create some variety. Who is going to create space for your two AMs to run into? Maybe someone who could drop deep? I am not saying the AF never does that ever, but it is a role that I feel doesn't really compliment your the AMs.

1.b 

On 30/09/2021 at 14:59, mss100 said:

No support for wingbacks once again. Terrible understanding.

For this specific issue maybe try a playmaker role? Who knows maybe it would move towards the ball carrier more? Draw attention of the opposition while the other AM makes a run and the striker drops deep.

2. You have two aggressive runners behind a striker, and then two runners deeper with noone really holding the midfield. While it could work maybe use something more conservative here even two players on defend to really give space for the AMs, but it's something to check. Also I am not sure how the midfield and the Libero are linking up, you liking what you are getting from that role?

3. What about crosses? Are your WBs aggressive enough?