How to beat Bayern?

[guttea]

Ok, I've had two seasons in Germany already and I can't beat Bayern, the record is 1D-4L. They play 4-2-3-1. In the first season I played 4141 against them away and 4411 at home, got smashed 3-1 both times. In the second season my team plays 4231 so at home I decided to match them without tweaking, won possession stats 53-47 and won on xG 1.77-0.63 and still lost 0-1. My best result was 2-2 draw away in the second season when I switched to 3atb and played 3412 because I read it counters 4231 but I actually got outplayed in that game with 2.39-0.7 xG. So as you can see I can't beat them. Any ideas? Here's my standard tactic:

 

[s0ni42]

Well getting 1 point from 5 games isn’t too far below field against Bayern. They are good and obviously have a lot of quality. As your advanced metrics show, sometimes it’s down to good/bad luck. 

[zabyl]

5 saat önce, guttea said:

This is another thread I have seen about beating a special opponent, so not a tactical help kind of topic. But stil I'll explain what I would do if I used a 4-2-3-1 for base tactic.

First of all; the right question is not "how to beat bayern?". It is "how to beat a stronger team?".

I don't know your players abilities, strengths, weaknesses. So my suggestions are only for 4-2-3-1 base shape. I would use a deeper variant of it against stronger sides. I would drop "CM"s to DM strata and "WF"s to midfield strata. I would use both wide midfielders on attack duty like Wa/IWa. I would change both FB roles to FBs. I would change AMC to APs. With these changes I can have 3 counter attacking threats up front. Wingers on attack and a lone striker AFa. These three players are supported with APs and 2 "DM"s. It is enough to counter-attack a stronger team which sends high numbers of players forward.

For TIs; I would only use counter & narrow defensive width on defensive or cautious mentality. I would increase risks with the use of cautious if it's a home game. Otherwise my first choice would be defensive. I can build-up play from defence if I want. Because I know I have more players closer to my goal than opposition.

Yeah, it would be something like this if I used a 4-2-3-1 as base. This is my way of improvising tactics.

Edited September 22, 2021 by zabyl

[Matt_1979]

Obviously it’s tough to beat a team like Bayern. 
Here’s how I beat Barca and Real with Almeria. 
 

Either match up like for like with their formation or choose one which counter acts theirs  in your case I’d probably go 4-3-3 as you then have players in the right positions to make a tackle and might even win the midfield battle (depending on your personnel). If you play narrower this will help win that midfield batter which is their strength. 
 

Then I dropped the tempo to slow (one below standard) I felt with Barca and Real both high pressing my players would already be a bit frantic so I wanted them to not be rushed and keep calm. 

I also started off with ‘cautious’ and then when I went behind (as I did in both games) I then switched to balanced  

Other than that there’s not much you can do other than pray you get a bit of luck. 

[guttea]

30 minutes ago, zabyl said:

This is another thread I have seen about beating a special opponent, so not a tactical help kind of topic. But stil I'll explain what I would do if I used a 4-2-3-1 for base tactic.

First of all; the right question is not "how to beat bayern?". It is "how to beat a stronger team?".

I don't know your players abilities, strengths, weaknesses. So my suggestions are only for 4-2-3-1 base shape. I would use a deeper variant of it against stronger sides. I would drop "CM"s to DM strata and "WF"s to midfield strata. I would use both wide midfielders on attack duty like Wa/IWa. I would change both FB roles to FBs. I would change AMC to APs. With these changes I can have 3 counter attacking threats up front. Wingers on attack and a lone striker AFa. These three players are supported with APs and 2 "DM"s. It is enough to counter-attack a stronger team which sends high numbers of players forward.

For TIs; I would only use counter & narrow defensive width on defensive or cautious mentality. I would increase risks with the use of cautious if it's a home game. Otherwise my first choice would be defensive. I can build-up play from defence if I want. Because I know I have more players closer to my goal than opposition.

Yeah, it would be something like this if I used a 4-2-3-1 as base. This is my way of improvising tactics.

congratulations, zabyl. implemented your ideas before the cup final and immediately beat bayern 3-0. it's amazing what dropping deeper can do.

[zabyl]

Just now, guttea said:

congratulations, zabyl. implemented your ideas before the cup final and immediately beat bayern 3-0. it's amazing what dropping deeper can do.

Happy to hear that! Keep thinking simple 

[Matt_1979]

When I use a 4-2-3-1 I find it works MUCH better with two DMs. A segundo volante with a DM is a great combo and links the defence and attack well. 

[guttea]

36 minutes ago, zabyl said:

Happy to hear that! Keep thinking simple 

scratch that, tried it again to see how consistent it was, now I lost to them 2-1. I feel like it gives away too many chances because the team is sitting too deep so they eventually score. And we don't create enough on the counter, we lost on xG as well. Thanks for the help anyway but it's just very frustrating, maybe I'm not approaching it correctly. I view it like a puzzle where there's a correct solution which should give me a certain victory, not something where I have to rely on RNG in the game. The reason why I think there's a correct solution is because like in real life you can have a coach come out, do a tactical switch and completely outplay the opposition like in the recent Chelsea-Tottenham game. Of course, in real life the opposition coach may react and change things too but the AI reacts more predictably so it should be easier to deal with it. And I feel like I still haven't found the correct solution to the Bayern puzzle.

42 minutes ago, Matt_1979 said:

When I use a 4-2-3-1 I find it works MUCH better with two DMs. A segundo volante with a DM is a great combo and links the defence and attack well. 

thanks, i'll try the segundo volante role

[alerosso]

I think you're asking for the impossibile if you want something that has a 100% win ratio vs Bayern (or any other team really). You're - also - the weaker team so how can you pretend to never lose against them? It's just totally unrealistic

[guttea]

10 minutes ago, alerosso said:

I think you're asking for the impossibile if you want something that has a 100% win ratio vs Bayern (or any other team really). You're - also - the weaker team so how can you pretend to never lose against them? It's just totally unrealistic

you're probably right, but how about something that reliably creates more xG than the opponent? sure, my team can still lose thanks to being unlucky and the other team converting their chances but the tactical solution to the opponent's system should mean that we're reliably outplaying them.

[zabyl]

24 dakika önce, guttea said:

Of course, in real life the opposition coach may react and change things too but the AI reacts more predictably so it should be easier to deal with it. And I feel like I still haven't found the correct solution to the Bayern puzzle

Are you missing something like considering player attributes & abilities? This game uses attributes as a base. In real football there are no atttibutes and every team can have the chance to beat a stronger side if they do their job correctly and have some luck. 

Returning to subject;  watch your opponent’s last games to see how they concede goals and chances created if you can’t decide their weaknesses. It is important to know how they attack and where they attack more to take precautions.

 

[zabyl]

28 dakika önce, guttea said:

you're probably right, but how about something that reliably creates more xG than the opponent? sure, my team can still lose thanks to being unlucky and the other team converting their chances but the tactical solution to the opponent's system should mean that we're reliably outplaying them.

Higher total xG doesn’t mean that you’re creating good chances. So it doesn’t mean your team is unlucky on converting chances. Maybe the chances are not good enough separately. Look at the vertical lines of xG graph for both teams. Look at their value separately. You can decide which is a high chance and which is low.

[Luizinho]

12 hours ago, Matt_1979 said:

Then I dropped the tempo to slow (one below standard) I felt with Barca and Real both high pressing my players would already be a bit frantic so I wanted them to not be rushed and keep calm. 

I've always found that dropping the tempo makes you far more susceptible against top team that press high up like Bayern - (different against a team like Atletico Madrid)

Asking the players to take their time on the ball when they're under pressure means that they'll can get caught, surely?

On the flip side, as the players to make decision quickly can lead to poor passes if they're not cable (poor mentals/technicals).

Tempo has always been a tricky one

[zabyl]

1 saat önce, Luizinho said:

Asking the players to take their time on the ball when they're under pressure means that they'll can get caught, surely?

On the flip side, as the players to make decision quickly can lead to poor passes if they're not cable (poor mentals/technicals).

Tempo has always been a tricky one

"Dribble less" works better for me against high pressing teams than setting a tempo. I let the opposition run for the ball and tire themselves. After waiting some time I activate pass into space to see if they are tired. If not, I take out "pass into space" and wait more.

[bosque]

hace 3 horas, zabyl dijo:

"Dribble less" works better for me against high pressing teams than setting a tempo. I let the opposition run for the ball and tire themselves. After waiting some time I activate pass into space to see if they are tired. If not, I take out "pass into space" and wait more.

How do you realize if they are tired?

[zabyl]

19 dakika önce, bosque said:

How do you realize if they are tired?

When I see opposition can’t cope with the runners.

[Marassi]

Bayern has so much talent, and usually plays a pretty balanced team game. There’s no magic key to dominate them constantly. I also don’t really buy the “formation X counters formation y” argument, since formations are just starting positions for defensive purposes. Assuming that Bayern hasn’t totally transformed in your save though, we know a couple of things based on their personnel, formation, and general footballing DNA.
 

They’ll try to keep the ball and press high most likely. Unless your team is built to do so, trying sit off too much is dangerous, as you’ve already discovered. I would try packing the middle of the park, possibly with a diamond midfield, which will both help negate their AMC and exploit the natural space between their midfield and defensive lines.

Because you’re likely to lose 1v1 battles across the pitch, I’d play narrow and let their center backs have the ball, instead beginning your press in midfield, but doing so with intensity and a compact formation. 4231s are generally dependent on their two holding players for supply, so try to strangle them. 

Assuming Kimmich is at right back, he needs to be closed down, as you will naturally give him space with this approach and he is the only really threatening distributor in that back line. On the other hand, his lack of pace is a potential vulnerability. If you have the player for it, a pacey deep dribbler (ML on attack as a winger/inverted winger) should be able to pick up the ball in the natural space between their wide players and run at him with a full head of steam

This is no guarantee of beating Bayern, but you’re choking off their plan A, exploiting the natural space in their defensive formation, and picking at least one vulnerability to attack. On their day, they’ll play right through you or create too many chances from the wings, but you’ll give yourself a good chance this way I think