How Do You Set Up Max Allegri's Juventus 4-4-2?

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

Hi

Juventus have started this season poorly, but in moments like early on vs Napoli, the first hour v Udinese, big win vs Malmo and first half vs AC Milan, they are playing some exciting attacking football.

Having watched their game with AC Milan im trying to use their approach to build a 4-4-2 formation. I never play 4-4-2, im always a 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1 type manager. I find it difficult to set up a 4-4-2 to be effective offensively AND defensively, its usually one or the other.

Would it be fair to say this is an accurate replication of what Allegri is trying to achieve?

Theyve got some additional options, could bring in Chiesa for Cuadrado, Mckennie could come in for one of Bentancur or Locatelli, Kean could play up front in place of Morata etc.

Watching the game vs AC Milan the things I would take from it in terms of team instructions would be:

• High tempo buildup - looking to attack immediately without spells of possession. Positive mentality?
• Overlaps down the left hand side
• Counter attacks
• Energetic pressing - Not counter-pressing, but in the middle of the pitch the pressing is energetic
• Freedom for Dybala to drift around

 

Would love any thoughts on this and whether these roles would work in the game theoretically?

Thanks

[alerosso]

I'm not entirely sure about Locatelli playing as a CMd. I think that's a bit too conservative of a role for him.

I think this 442 can easily morph into a 352 during the game with alex sandro and cuadrado playing as wing-backs and danilo becoming the RCB but it for sure looks like a 442 when defending. Also, keep in mind Chiesa is still not at 100% after the international break. This can explain why we see Rabiot being played as WM on the left at the moment. Hopefully we'll see Chiesa playing there when he's back

[Dj-Voodoo]

In a flat 442 the FM engine is not so good at keeping a flat bank of four in the midfield if you have one CM on Defend duty and the other on Support. For your more defensive CM, try CMs but with the hold position PI.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Dj-Voodoo

[s0ni42]

Why would you want to replicate this mess if a tactic? Just trolling.

 

I would re-examine your central midfield roles. I haven’t watched but 30 minutes of Juve this year but I don’t particularly like the combination you have set. 

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

7 hours ago, s0ni42 said:

Why would you want to replicate this mess if a tactic? Just trolling.

 

I would re-examine your central midfield roles. I haven’t watched but 30 minutes of Juve this year but I don’t particularly like the combination you have set. 

point taken

My basis really is that ive never really had a solid, winning 4-4-2 at the top level. The only time I ever designed a 4-4-2 I liked was when I was managing Universidad de Chile a few editions of FM previous.

Central midfield.....Im not sure. Im not sure what the best partnership is really in terms of roles.

Locatelli has PPMs to "dictate tempo" and "come deep for the ball" so his PPM's suit a more "sitting" type role, so perhaps like others have suggested he could be moved into a CM/S role?

In the other midfield role, Bentancur has very similar PPMs, so they perhaps arent an ideal partnership. Weston McKennie on the other hand has PPMs to "move into channels" and "gets into opposition area" so effectively, he wants to play as a mezzala PPM wise, if set to a CM/S role.

Its the 2 central midfielders that confuse me the most in a 442 though and what i need the advice with really.

In the usual formations I go with, ill often go with a double pivot 2 in a 4231 with a creator in front of them.

With 442...... I need them to do a bit of everything, but still provide stability in transition.

The main creativity from this team is going to come from the wide areas, clever movement from Dybala, and exploiting fast transitions on the counter.

 

Would be grateful for any advice on getting the most out of the 442

@s0ni42 @alerosso @Dj-Voodoo

Thanks everyone

[s0ni42]

I don’t know if this mirrors what Juve does but I utilize DLP-S with either BBM or Mez when favored or stronger side and CM-D for more conservative setups.

[Dj-Voodoo]

I'd use Locatelli as a CMs (PI Hold Position) or DLPs and Bentacur as a BWMs or CMs (PI Close Down More, Get Further Forward). But, like always, it depends on your tactics as a whole.

 

The whole issue with the centre-pairing is to overcome a limitation of the Match Engine -- when you tell the CM to be on defend duty, the match engine takes that to mean "this player should have a significant more defensive mindset than his stata position" when you actually want it to mean "I want this player to be the most defensively reliable and least adventurous in his forward movement in case of a counter". With that interpretation, the workaround is to keep the players on the same line in the same strata but tell the more "defensive" one to hold position when the team has the ball. If that doesn't work then you can reduce his pressing intensity too.

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

8 hours ago, Dj-Voodoo said:

I'd use Locatelli as a CMs (PI Hold Position) or DLPs and Bentacur as a BWMs or CMs (PI Close Down More, Get Further Forward). But, like always, it depends on your tactics as a whole.

 

The whole issue with the centre-pairing is to overcome a limitation of the Match Engine -- when you tell the CM to be on defend duty, the match engine takes that to mean "this player should have a significant more defensive mindset than his stata position" when you actually want it to mean "I want this player to be the most defensively reliable and least adventurous in his forward movement in case of a counter". With that interpretation, the workaround is to keep the players on the same line in the same strata but tell the more "defensive" one to hold position when the team has the ball. If that doesn't work then you can reduce his pressing intensity too.

I think youve raised a really interesting point there.

Ive been reading some threads based on 442, and it seems to suggest the attacking area is also an issue in the match engine.

Quite a few people say you need two support strikers, because (and id agree with) in a 442, its more about getting back into a defensive shape rather than strikers pressing the opposition centre backs.

So im thinking....maybe this is an area of concern too, in the sense that attack duty strikers will want to defend too high up the field and the compactness between front 2 and midfield 4 would be lost?

I chose Dybala as a Treqartista as i think his attributes and PPMs really suit that position, coming deep, creating, long shots etc. But he needs to fall back more into an AM position to defend and leave the centre backs on the ball.

Same with Morata, i have gone for pressing forward attack because i want him to latch onto through balls, but also head crosses and be a nuisance. But to get him to defend deep, i guess he really should have a pressing forward support duty or maybe a deep lying forward support duty?

Kind of worried this will blunt the goal threat though.

What do you think about this?

[Dj-Voodoo]

On 22/09/2021 at 20:35, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

I think youve raised a really interesting point there.

Ive been reading some threads based on 442, and it seems to suggest the attacking area is also an issue in the match engine.

Quite a few people say you need two support strikers, because (and id agree with) in a 442, its more about getting back into a defensive shape rather than strikers pressing the opposition centre backs.

So im thinking....maybe this is an area of concern too, in the sense that attack duty strikers will want to defend too high up the field and the compactness between front 2 and midfield 4 would be lost?

I chose Dybala as a Treqartista as i think his attributes and PPMs really suit that position, coming deep, creating, long shots etc. But he needs to fall back more into an AM position to defend and leave the centre backs on the ball.

Same with Morata, i have gone for pressing forward attack because i want him to latch onto through balls, but also head crosses and be a nuisance. But to get him to defend deep, i guess he really should have a pressing forward support duty or maybe a deep lying forward support duty?

Kind of worried this will blunt the goal threat though.

What do you think about this?

The strikers line up in accordance to the opponent's defensive line. So a Treq. would be X yard from the line while a PFa or AFa would be against the line, etc. Honestly the Regroup TI is a a must-have for a 4-4-2. I haven't over thought it beyond that -- in the defensive phase strikers typically don't do much more than occupy space and sometimes harass the DM.

[halfspace3000]

Here how i setup Juve, started the season brilliantly but playing poorly now :/ 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by halfspace3000

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

46 minutes ago, halfspace3000 said:

Here how i setup Juve, started the season brilliantly but playing poorly now :/ 

 

Any PI's on your players there?

I like the set up a lot, can imagine you create lots of wide overloads

[halfspace3000]

25 minutes ago, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

Any PI's on your players there?

I like the set up a lot, can imagine you create lots of wide overloads

Left CM-S = hold position, Take more risks

Right CM-S= Get further forward

Right FB-S = Sit narrower

I love creating simple tactics in Fm

Edited September 24, 2021 by halfspace3000

[naufal husain]

I think I get the point why Juve started this season poorly, because for me it's hard to manage juve even in FM

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

5 hours ago, naufal husain said:

I think I get the point why Juve started this season poorly, because for me it's hard to manage juve even in FM

Are you seeing any issues in particular?

Maybe post your tactics and there may be aspects to improve them

[Tsuru]

I am not from the school that uses two CM on support in the centre of the midfield in a 4-4-2. I prefer a simple, basic CM-D/CM-S pair, I believe it is much more simple and effective. As you use Chiesa as an IW, he will move inside and occupy the space vacated by the holding midfielder, opening the flank to a more adventurous fullback, and the AF ahead will open space for the three to operate. Some people say this is a 4-1-3-2 and not a 4-4-2 - I really don´t care, if I am the winner I am fine 

I also have a friend that started in England´s last division and now he is at the Premier League using always the same 4-4-2. In central midfield he uses a DLP-D/BBM-s pair, he survived PL´s first season and is at the middle of the table in the second one doing very well. And we had another topic here at the forums some time ago in which the manager used a Sacchi style 4-4-2 with AC Milan with the basic CM-D/CM-S pair and he was very satisfied (https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/516635-4-4-2-modern-control-and-attack-space/).

So yes, definitely the defend/support combo can work in the centre on a 4-4-2 and I prefer it. Based on your last setup and as you are facing some problems lately, maybe I would try something like this:
 

Ignore the goalkeeper, you can keep him as a SK-D. I would also not start with any PIs and then just add them as the team needs. I like to orientate the crossings to the AF side, but I don´t believe this is mandatory.

You can also try a WM-S with instructions to move inside on the left if you want an inverted winger that has more defensive responsibilities, and at the same time is more possession oriented.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Tsuru

[naufal husain]

On 27/09/2021 at 03:01, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

Are you seeing any issues in particular?

Maybe post your tactics and there may be aspects to improve them

I'm struggle as well. Sitting 2nd behind milan in feb, but maybe want to restart the save because some silly winter transfer that can't make into CL squad 😂 (I disable the 1st transfer window)

 

Rotate the tactic, between 4-4-2 and 4-2-3-1 mostly. The problem is with 4-4-2, I put rabiot on the left and chiesa on the opposite (like allegri did), but with 4-2-3-1 I put chiesa on the left but struggle to find players for the rw. The problem I see is Juve's winger is almost all right winger. Of course you can put chiesa and bernardeschi on the left but it's like you change your tactic because chiesa will cut inside but berna will cross and inshaallah. Basically I think Juve need right footed lw so we can maintain tactic

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

12 hours ago, Tsuru said:

I am not from the school that uses two CM on support in the centre of the midfield in a 4-4-2. I prefer a simple, basic CM-D/CM-S pair, I believe it is much more simple and effective. As you use Chiesa as an IW, he will move inside and occupy the space vacated by the holding midfielder, opening the flank to a more adventurous fullback, and the AF ahead will open space for the three to operate. Some people say this is a 4-1-3-2 and not a 4-4-2 - I really don´t care, if I am the winner I am fine 

I also have a friend that started in England´s last division and now he is at the Premier League using always the same 4-4-2. In central midfield he uses a DLP-D/BBM-s pair, he survived PL´s first season and is at the middle of the table in the second one doing very well. And we had another topic here at the forums some time ago in which the manager used a Sacchi style 4-4-2 with AC Milan with the basic CM-D/CM-S pair and he was very satisfied (https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/516635-4-4-2-modern-control-and-attack-space/).

So yes, definitely the defend/support combo can work in the centre on a 4-4-2 and I prefer it. Based on your last setup and as you are facing some problems lately, maybe I would try something like this:
 

Ignore the goalkeeper, you can keep him as a SK-D. I would also not start with any PIs and then just add them as the team needs. I like to orientate the crossings to the AF side, but I don´t believe this is mandatory.

You can also try a WM-S with instructions to move inside on the left if you want an inverted winger that has more defensive responsibilities, and at the same time is more possession oriented.

Hi there

I like the set up a lot its along the lines of what im considering.

One worry I have is in central midfield, and the player traits of Weston McKennie:

So he has Mezzala like player traits.

Im not sure this is suitable for someone playing in a midfield two?

I like the idea that an advanced forward is going to open up space on the left side for a left sided midfielder to move into, and this makes sense with the overlapping left back which would be Alex Sandro, who is very attack minded. So that balance of Alex Sandro as a wingback or fullback on attack, a left sided midfielder cutting inside, whilst the advanced froward on attack of Morata/Kean would work nicely.

On the other side, I like an attacking winger, Cuadrado or Chiesa, and I think Dybala will work well as a Trequartista on attack with his preferred moves to come deep and try killer balls, so hes more of a playmaker than his mentality would suggest.

Its just that right sided central midfielder im worried about. I dont want someone emptying the midfield by getting into the box. That will be done from the two forwards and the right winger.

The other main two central midfielders, Locatelli and Bentancur, have very similar player traits:

 

 

Do you think these two would form a good midfield partnership as CM/D and CM/S?

Thanks

[Tsuru]

Em 28/09/2021 em 23:26, Lesterfan_Cambiasso disse:

Hi there

I like the set up a lot its along the lines of what im considering.

One worry I have is in central midfield, and the player traits of Weston McKennie:

So he has Mezzala like player traits.

Im not sure this is suitable for someone playing in a midfield two?

I like the idea that an advanced forward is going to open up space on the left side for a left sided midfielder to move into, and this makes sense with the overlapping left back which would be Alex Sandro, who is very attack minded. So that balance of Alex Sandro as a wingback or fullback on attack, a left sided midfielder cutting inside, whilst the advanced froward on attack of Morata/Kean would work nicely.

On the other side, I like an attacking winger, Cuadrado or Chiesa, and I think Dybala will work well as a Trequartista on attack with his preferred moves to come deep and try killer balls, so hes more of a playmaker than his mentality would suggest.

Its just that right sided central midfielder im worried about. I dont want someone emptying the midfield by getting into the box. That will be done from the two forwards and the right winger.

The other main two central midfielders, Locatelli and Bentancur, have very similar player traits:

 

 

Do you think these two would form a good midfield partnership as CM/D and CM/S?

Thanks

Betancur and Locatelli look good as holding midfielders IMHO, as they come deep to get the ball and dictate tempo. Each one will perform differently, I think, so you have to try and see in the field. Sometimes the players itself are very suited, the attributes are good, but in the field things don´t work. They can play as simple CM-D or even a more creative role.

I also believe that McKennie would be a good CM-S, because with no specific PIs he would play almost on his traits. Try for some games and see if theory works 

[zabyl]

Before Dybala’s injury; Allegri used a 4-4-2 with some interesting attacking shape. 

Firstly, this is my interpretation about their play. Allegri used Dybala and Chiesa as double 10s on halfspaces but Dybala roamed around more to create issues for opposition. Morata mostly ran into the channel between RB-RCB. Cuadrado pushed forward and wide to provide width. Alex Sandro too. Also I saw Alex Sandro in the box more than Cuadrado when they both played as FB. Bentancur played like a BBM or BWM. Locatelli was a deep option. I don’t know what LM/LW played like, I don’t decide. But I know that they tried to overload left to isolate Chiesa or Cuadrado on the right. 

Juventus shows improvements. Sorry for Dybala’s injury when he finally started to play better.

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

5 hours ago, zabyl said:

Before Dybala’s injury; Allegri used a 4-4-2 with some interesting attacking shape. 

Firstly, this is my interpretation about their play. Allegri used Dybala and Chiesa as double 10s on halfspaces but Dybala roamed around more to create issues for opposition. Morata mostly ran into the channel between RB-RCB. Cuadrado pushed forward and wide to provide width. Alex Sandro too. Also I saw Alex Sandro in the box more than Cuadrado when they both played as FB. Bentancur played like a BBM or BWM. Locatelli was a deep option. I don’t know what LM/LW played like, I don’t decide. But I know that they tried to overload left to isolate Chiesa or Cuadrado on the right. 

Juventus shows improvements. Sorry for Dybala’s injury when he finally started to play better.

I have similar thoughts to you.

Dybala has license to roam between the opposition defence and midfield. He can pop up anywhere. Morata as an out and out forward looking to get in behind and get onto crosses.

I think Allegri was preferring Rabiot at left midfield to add some defensive cover for the on rushing Alex Sandro. They look to release the player on the right flank to attack, whether this be Cuadrado or Chiesa.

There is a definite intensity to the play down the left hand side, and there is a big focus on counter attacking with speed.

Defensively, they look to get into a good shape quickly and be tough to break down, rather than pressing high.

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

Hello Everyone

Just got done with my first season as Juventus.

Ive been using a tactic very similar to the one used by @halfspace3000

Only differences for me really are that im using Morata as a PF (A) rather than AF (A), and i have some additional PI's

• both strikers are set to mark opposition DMs left and right, to gain a compact 4-4-2 shape out of possession when opposition goes 4-2-3-1
• Rabiot is used as a WM(s) with PIs to attempt risky passes at times, other times IW(s) is used for Chiesa or Bernardeschi
• Dybala playing as a DLF (s) has PIs to roam from position

And just like @halfspace3000 we started the season very strongly and then fizzled out badly to a distant 2nd place, 8 points behind Inter Milan who roasted the league only losing 1 match, lost the Italian Supercup 1-0 to Inter Milan, lost the Italian Cup semi final to.....Inter Milan  and lost in the champions league round of 16 to Man City (understandable).

I see some problems with the tactic and would really like advice on how it can be made better

 

• A lot of Italian teams are going for the back 3 with wing backs pushed up, this seems to create a problem for me. I can either retain a compact shape with the strikers dropping off, this just results in the opposition making lots of easy passes at the back to keep the ball, OR if we go to press high we are exposed, because they can use the extra man to beat the press and send the ball out wide. This is especially dangerous against teams like Inter Milan and Atalanta who come forward and batter us down the wings.
• Lack of quality in the middle of the pitch. Bentancur and Locatelli are my preferred 2, both work horses but lacking in creative quality. id like to see more through balls but the only sources of through balls are Dybala and the odd speculative ball from Bonucci or De Ligt. We score a decent amount of goals but not taking advantage of Morata's "beat offside trap" PPM
• Space In between the lines. I noticed this a lot against Raspadori and Gabbiadini who loved to drop off and create havoc by playing in a strike partner or wide man with a through ball. Raising the defensive line and using offside trap hasnt really helped this and the lack of a DM covering the space in front of the back 4 is a concern
• Using a 4-2-3-1 hasnt been as successful as id have hoped mostly because players dont effectively use their roles as well as in the 4-4-2 (when its going well). Dybala in the AM position doesnt seem as effective as at DLF, when i use an inverted winger or inside forward in the left position the results arent great either.
• Some of my players are flat out crap. Kean, Kaio Jorge, Arthur, De Sciglio, Pellegrini are all squad players and are all useless. Ramsey is just a donkey.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated as we are underperforming massively compared to expectations!

 

Thanks