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Struggling to win against Liverpool on away game


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Hi, I have been struggling to win away game against liverpool as Man Utd. No matter what tactics I used. I even tried 4 defend duty defenders, man marking, hold position, etc, always press, etc but liv attackers keep slipping through the back line. I even attempted to reload multiple times, but the chance they won was too high (some games had huge goal differences)

Here are 2 screenshots of 2 tactics I used:

20210914195557_1.thumb.jpg.5d7b1e203c4779c05aa9e541a7416f7d.jpg20210914195526_1.thumb.jpg.61531bd31b6940da23d13a84ba47e171.jpg

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14 dakika önce, kakashidinho said:

Hi, I have been struggling to win away game against liverpool as Man Utd. No matter what tactics I used. I even tried 4 defend duty defenders, man marking, hold position, etc, always press, etc but liv attackers keep slipping through the back line. I even attempted to reload multiple times, but the chance they won was too high (some games had huge goal differences)

Here are 2 screenshots of 2 tactics I used:

20210914195557_1.thumb.jpg.5d7b1e203c4779c05aa9e541a7416f7d.jpg20210914195526_1.thumb.jpg.61531bd31b6940da23d13a84ba47e171.jpg

These tactics have too many things to be FM'd.

 

If you happy with your tactics you can use them for other matches. So I'll recommend changes only for this match for first tactic.

  • Drop team mentality to balanced
  • Change RW to Wa
  • Change AFa to CFs
  • Change LW to IFs
  • Change DLPd to BBMs
  • Change RCM to MEZs
  • Change BWMd to DMd or a DLPd if he is capable 
  • Change LB to FBs
  • Use only one BPD and use both centre backs on defend duty
  • Don't use much shorter passing and don't go extremes. Use shorter if you want shorter passing. Otherwise it can be overkill and too much restrictive.
  • Don't use low crosses. You have Haaland...
  • Don't use much lower tempo. Again don't go extremes. Otherwise it can be overkill and too much restrictive. Use standard or higher tempo for this game.
  • Don't use narrow/fairly narrow attacking width when you use both your wide attackers as inside cutting roles. Use standard at least. Otherwise it can congest your attacking play to a little area.
  • Drop distribute quickly. That team can press your defence high. It is risky. Slowing pace can be better sometimes against high tempo teams. You don't need to use an option for gk distribution speed.
  • Don't use hold shape against stronger teams. Use counter or none.
  • Drop counter-press. It is risky against stronger teams. I don't suggest using an option for this too.
  • Force opposition outside can create worse scenarios against stronger teams which uses width more. You can use this TI against weaker sides to create space. But I don't suggest it against stronger teams. It has high risks than rewards against them.
  • Drop DL to standard or higher. Using much higher DL increases risks against stronger teams.
  • Drop LOE to standard. Try to win the ball back on middle third. This attitude is less riskier against stronger teams and can give you an advantage like drawing them a little for your pass into space TI.
  • Don't use extremely urgent pressing. Again don't go extremes. This can weaken your defensive shape. Use one level higher than normal if you want intense pressing.
  • Drop prevent short GK distribution. Give your opponent some time and space when playing against stronger teams. Bear in mind; they want your team to be higher to create space for themselves. Don't fall into this trap of stronger team AI. It can be risky if they have good passers at the back.
  • Don't use offside trap. It can be risky against stronger teams. They can have many fast players up front.
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6 hours ago, zabyl said:

These tactics have too many things to be FM'd.

 

If you happy with your tactics you can use them for other matches. So I'll recommend changes only for this match for first tactic.

  • Drop team mentality to balanced
  • Change RW to Wa
  • Change AFa to CFs
  • Change LW to IFs
  • Change DLPd to BBMs
  • Change RCM to MEZs
  • Change BWMd to DMd or a DLPd if he is capable 
  • Change LB to FBs
  • Use only one BPD and use both centre backs on defend duty
  • Don't use much shorter passing and don't go extremes. Use shorter if you want shorter passing. Otherwise it can be overkill and too much restrictive.
  • Don't use low crosses. You have Haaland...
  • Don't use much lower tempo. Again don't go extremes. Otherwise it can be overkill and too much restrictive. Use standard or higher tempo for this game.
  • Don't use narrow/fairly narrow attacking width when you use both your wide attackers as inside cutting roles. Use standard at least. Otherwise it can congest your attacking play to a little area.
  • Drop distribute quickly. That team can press your defence high. It is risky. Slowing pace can be better sometimes against high tempo teams. You don't need to use an option for gk distribution speed.
  • Don't use hold shape against stronger teams. Use counter or none.
  • Drop counter-press. It is risky against stronger teams. I don't suggest using an option for this too.
  • Force opposition outside can create worse scenarios against stronger teams which uses width more. You can use this TI against weaker sides to create space. But I don't suggest it against stronger teams. It has high risks than rewards against them.
  • Drop DL to standard or higher. Using much higher DL increases risks against stronger teams.
  • Drop LOE to standard. Try to win the ball back on middle third. This attitude is less riskier against stronger teams and can give you an advantage like drawing them a little for your pass into space TI.
  • Don't use extremely urgent pressing. Again don't go extremes. This can weaken your defensive shape. Use one level higher than normal if you want intense pressing.
  • Drop prevent short GK distribution. Give your opponent some time and space when playing against stronger teams. Bear in mind; they want your team to be higher to create space for themselves. Don't fall into this trap of stronger team AI. It can be risky if they have good passers at the back.
  • Don't use offside trap. It can be risky against stronger teams. They can have many fast players up front.

Thanks, I hadn't had a chance to test your strategy against liv yet. But I tested your tactics against weaker teams, it seems to perform worse than my default tactics on away games. What could be the problems?

For example, I dropped offside trap but some home teams successfully performed multiple through balls, Honestly, the game felt so random that I had doubts that these tactics make any difference. Not to say that your advice is not good. But the game makes me too frustrated with its randomness.

The most frustrating thing is that the midfielders are too inconsistent. Some matches they had bad forms (less than 7.0) which dropped their levels to below world-class lvl too frequently.

Edited by kakashidinho
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Much higher D-Line against Salah and Mane. That's ballsy :D Add that you're using a defender on cover which essentially makes you loose compactness between defence and midfield where you employ a DMC who's having to run around quite a bit I reckon.

I mean, you use a hell of a lot of instructions so no wonder you're confused to what is going on. Is this yours or a so called Plug and Play?

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17 dakika önce, kakashidinho said:

Thanks, I hadn't had a chance to test your strategy against liv yet. But I tested your tactics against weaker teams, it seems to perform worse than my default tactics on away games. What could be the problems?

For example, I dropped offside trap but some home teams successfully performed multiple through balls, Honestly, the game felt so random that I had doubts that these tactics make any difference. Not to say that your advice is not good. But the game makes me too frustrated with its randomness.

If you don't know what to do; then the best thing is to start from the core. Don't use any TIs and start from there. Activate a TI that you think fits to your team and pay attention to its impacts. If it works, you can try another one. But don't use too many TIs at the same time without knowing what you are affecting. Less is more in FM. Less is more clear.

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I was playing against Newscastle on away game. I decided to try your advice of using standard attacking width as default because my attacking wingers cut inside too often. However, my assistant coach (Phelan) actually advised me to use narrower width lol.

And as he said, we had difficult game when using fairly wide width. But once I reloaded and used fairly narrow width, we stomped Newcastle.

On a flip side, Carnavinga seemed to now have better form when being used as BBM instead of DLPd. Is it me or DLPd is very difficult to maintain 7+ rating performance? He was world class but was dropped to 4 stars too frequently becoz he couldn't maintain 7+ rating as DLPd.

On the other hand, BWM is very easy to have high rating. Once your team manage a shutout, BWM automatically gains additional 0.3 point.

Edited by kakashidinho
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27 minutes ago, Justified said:

Much higher D-Line against Salah and Mane. That's ballsy :D Add that you're using a defender on cover which essentially makes you loose compactness between defence and midfield where you employ a DMC who's having to run around quite a bit I reckon.

I mean, you use a hell of a lot of instructions so no wonder you're confused to what is going on. Is this yours or a so called Plug and Play?

My games against liv, they managed to perform a lot of through balls. So I thought using one defender as cover could help (but actually seems didn't help much)

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10 minutes ago, kakashidinho said:

My games against liv, they managed to perform a lot of through balls. So I thought using one defender as cover could help (but actually seems didn't help much)

You probably actually made it worse in some regards. Sure he'd make your overall defence drop as he drops but then you leave loads of space in front of your defence that your DMC has to mop up but then your team tries to push up higher. It really is a recipe for disaster to play that way against skilful and fast attackers like Liverpools.

Let's put it this way, against Liverpool I'd even struggle to contemplate playing a higher D-line because their pace is frightening.

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39 dakika önce, kakashidinho said:

I was playing against Newscastle on away game. I decided to try your advice of using standard attacking width as default because my attacking wingers cut inside too often. However, my assistant coach (Phelan) actually advised me to use narrower width lol.

And as he said, we had difficult game when using fairly wide width. But once I reloaded and used fairly narrow width, we stomped Newcastle.

Those suggestions were for Liverpool game mostly. Your team have nearly 5 star players for all positions. They can play on narrow width too.

 

42 dakika önce, kakashidinho said:

On a flip side, Carnavinga seemed to now have better form when being used as BBM instead of DLPd. Is it me or DLPd is very difficult to maintain 7+ rating performance? He was world class but was dropped to 4 stars too frequently becoz he couldn't maintain 7+ rating as DLPd.

Don't consider roles/duties playerwise. Think about roles/duties teamwise. Setting a role for one player affects lots of things teamwise.

 

46 dakika önce, kakashidinho said:

On the other hand, BWM is very easy to have high rating. Once your team manage a shutout, BWM automatically gains additional 0.3 point.

Maybe he is more specialised about one subject...

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Now I have started a new season and had a chance to play against liv on away game again. I tested this tactic (quite similar to what you suggested) but still struggled to win.

This game is ridiculous. Even though last season i won 4-0 against them in CL final, and won 3-0 in community shield against them at the start of the season. But when playing on away game, still lost to this ******** team. They were not even using their best players (their striker is squad player with only 3 stars). My squad has almost all work-class players but no matter what I did, liv still passed through-balls here and there like gods. And my world-class players looked like little kids (nervous, anxious, etc). I even lower the defensive line to standard but still the same.

20210919080028_1.jpg

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Force opposition inside creates space between your defenders and increases the chance of through balls. Leave it on default if you don’t know its impacts. Nobody told you to use that.

Don’t set your DL and LOE on extreme before knowing their impacts. Much lower DL with standard LOE can give opposition pockets of space between your defence & midfield. Nobody told you to use that.

Prevent short GK distribution forces your attackers to be higher up the pitch but you use a standard LOE. These two can be risky and increase space between your midfield & attack. So I don’t suggest prevent gk distribution with standard or below standard LOE settings.

You don’t have to set tempo TI. Leave it on default for not complicating things.

Again you don’t have to set a crossing style TI. Leave it on default too for not limiting potential chances. And noone told you to use that TI.

I’m not a big fan of BWM role on DM. That role forces the player to remove from his position early to close down an opposition player. You can use it but against stronger sides like Liverpool there can be many issues because of that role. It makes more sense for me to use another defend duty DM role.

Don’t use BPD on the same side with a playmaker if you can. With this way, risks can be balanced more.

These are the points to note for now.

 

I suppose you don’t know much about TIs and game mechanics. I suggest learning their impacts before using them. Nobody can know your players better than you. So it’s up to you when deciding what can be good or bad for your team depending on the situation. Community can only give you advice about certain aspects of this game like which TI can be suited more to which situation or proper role/duty combinations etc. They can’t watch your games.

Edited by zabyl
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hace 1 hora, zabyl dijo:

Prevent short GK distribution forces your attackers to be higher up the pitch but you use a standard LOE. These two can be risky and increase space between your midfield & attack. So I don’t suggest prevent gk distribution with standard or below standard LOE settings.

Line of engagement is an order that affects more at the midfielders?

Edited by bosque
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9 times out of 10 I play on standard defensive line and standard line of engagement. When I am super confident I can take the opposition on, I go higher line or much higher line of engagement. 

Looking at your tactics, your liberal use of team instructions, plus some of the roles have given you grief and shows that you need to learn how to play with less, understand how the roles and team instructions work before becoming adventurous with their use.

1. Why are you using a BWM as an holding player? He is a good role but he can be very aggressive which could see him leave his position. Once he picks up a yellow you have a run on your defence.
2. Why use play out of defence against better sides? This is an instruction that doesn't need to be used, your team can still play the ball out from the back using keeper distribution, but they don't take so long doing it.
3. Why limit the use of crossing to floated crosses? Are ALL your goals expected to come off headers? You usually only have one AF and you are playing an AF - a role that doesn't need floated crosses.

4. You are playing lower tempo giving the team a lot of time to get into position, and when they do, you are telling them to put one in the air for someone to head. Sounds like you only have one way of scoring goals.

Why force opposition inside? because you have 3 in the middle? Forcing opposition inside or outside should be a strategic decision. You should stick to default and not choose anything. Learn how they other TIs work first.

Why use a BPD, what does that role bring to a system like yours? Are you choosing the role simply because the game tells you that's the best for the player? The BPD will hoof the ball up once in a while, but why choose that beside a WB on attack and behind an AP(S)? 

When you go into a game and are learning the ropes, ask yourself those same questions. If you can answer those questions and more importantly see the play your tactic was designed to create then you are getting better at the game.
 

 

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2 saat önce, bosque said:

Line of engagement is an order that affects more at the midfielders?

No; it affects both midfield line and attack line as you see when you set. Prevent short GK affects your most advanced players who work for preventing short distribution. It increases vertical space more between attack & midfield if used with a standard or below standard LOE. Higher levels of LOE brings midfield & attack closer when preventing short GK distribution.

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Here are my thought on what I chose (of course it might not be correct, but it’s the purpuse of asking for advises)

- I used force opposite inside becoz the games against them they scored many goals using crosses from wide area. Well they also used through balls but before that they scores too many crosses hence I chose this instruction in this particular scenario.

- lower tempo. Because it’s the tiki taka style that my team is most familiar with (and the board demands). I admitted that after changing to higher tempo I scored a lot more against liv. But i could not retain possession using that (well it might not be important but someone might just want to role play and please possession obsessed fans and board in my team)

- play out of defense: also tiki taka style. I have one question. Liv in this particular match was not actually stronger than my team. They were using their squad players becoz their best players were injured. Sure their 3 stars players shouldn’t be stronger than my 5 stars players.

- BWM: I actually used DM before that and still lost. Believe me I reloaded multiple times. This BWM is just one of scenario I tried. Anw it’s true I prefer BWM becoz my midfielder player seems to have much better forms with that role.

- Float crosses becoz the game said it is better with tall striker like haaland. What should be the default? If I chose default tiki taka, the default crossing option is low crosses …

- BPD: my defenders are too good as passing and technique (they could be DM as well). Not using them could be a waste. Are you saying I shouldn’t use BPD at all?

- defensive line in this screenshot was set to much lower but I actually used standard before that (again I reloaded multiple times trying different options, it was too frustrating none of the options make any difference except besides higher tempo).

what I don’t understand is that last season I used almost the same tactic but I stomped other teams and stomped liv on 2 important matches: CL final and community shield. My team had 24 shutout matches in the league last season.

i had been reloading more than 1 hr. Trying different things:

- higher tempo (won some matches but liv also scored a lot).

- standard loe and dl/Much lower dl. Seems to have same results.

- defensive midfielder: DM/BWM. Both still lost. My DM was actually a bit tired from last match, he became fatigued quite fast after 60 mins. His sub was injured.

Edited by kakashidinho
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I tried another attempt with "Play out of defense" removed and use 4-2-3-1, managed to win 1-4. But it could possibly because of RNG luck.

This time I also use much less instructions. OK, now I know what you meant by default options. If the default options are used, they won't show up on the left panel.

20210919184715_1.jpg

Edited by kakashidinho
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2 saat önce, kakashidinho said:

I tried another attempt with "Play out of defense" removed and use 4-2-3-1, managed to win 1-4. But it could possibly because of RNG luck.

This time I also use much less instructions. OK, now I know what you meant by default options. If the default options are used, they won't show up on the left panel.

20210919184715_1.jpg

This is better for countering them. Bear in mind, less is more in this game...

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OK, I retried exactly the same tactic multiple times again to see how this match went. Turned out this game was completely random, few matches I won 3-1, some matches they won 3-0, 2-1, etc. I'm starting to think these tactics having no meaning at all. It looks good on paper but it's ridiculous that my players' morale are still too randomized. Some matches they completely dominated the field, leaving opponent no chances, while some matches they were like little kids, nervous and kept passing to wrong person and had like 1 shots and zero shot on target.

Edited by kakashidinho
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17 horas atrás, kakashidinho disse:

OK, I retried exactly the same tactic multiple times again to see how this match went. Turned out this game was completely random, few matches I won 3-1, some matches they won 3-0, 2-1, etc. I'm starting to think these tactics having no meaning at all. It looks good on paper but it's ridiculous that my players' morale are still too randomized. Some matches they completely dominated the field, leaving opponent no chances, while some matches they were like little kids, nervous and kept passing to wrong person and had like 1 shots and zero shot on target.

Football is 50% random - it was already statistically proved, it is one of the most random sports of all. And I think FM tries to replicate this in game.

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