Team controls the matches but does not score

[Tsuru]

Three days ago I posted here at the AMC thread about my 4-4-1-1 and how I was satisfied with it. Well, things seem to be not as good as they looked.

I have been playing with Wrexham at National League and we had a very good start. But after our corner kick strategy stopped working, the real problem showed: we create a lot of chances, move the ball well, but fail to score.

We are predicted to finish 4th and suddenly we were at 1st position, so obviously opponents started looking at us with more caution, denying spaces and playing on the counter. The majority of suffered goals look to be from through balls in the middle of the defence or from crossings - which I think are "normal" ways considering our formation.
 

 

This was the most used distribution of roles and duties, although I also have tested a more "traditional" one (MC-D with adventurous fullback, MC-S/BBM with more conservative fullback), and also some variations at the attack (SS/PF, AM on Support, P/AF instead of PF).

I did try another distribution based in the one Rashidi used in FM 13, it still works (the one below), I like the way we control the ball and move it, we create chances, but still there is an irritating lack of goals.
 

I play on Balanced mentality, no TIs, and just tested some PIs at the AM and in the striker. I wouldn´t like to change that - it is much easier for me to play in that "vanilla" style, I am not looking for a specific playstyle as I really don´t care about it, I just want to win.

During the matches that we were not able to score I added some temporary TIs to make our team more aggressive: moved up the lines, asked the players to be "More Expressive", added more pressure, maybe even Counter-Press, asked them to play more direct and wider to open defences (not all instructions at the same time), but there was no visible improvement.

I suspect that the 4-4-1-1 is much more suited for a counter/defensive way of playing than for a proactive one, and is much harder to open space when teams play defensively against me, so now I see that maybe it was not the best choice for a team predicted to finish 4th. I have been considering a change to a 4-4-2 or even to a 4-2-3-1, moving the ML/MR ahead.

Do you believe there is something tactical I could do to improve the current tactic? Should I really consider a formation change to adapt to our "challenge the title" situation? Maybe I should just have patience and do nothing, as we are playing well? I accept any advices - PIs, TIs, roles, duties and maybe even mentality.

And thank you all in advance.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Tsuru

[Johnny Ace]

Depends, you say you're not scoring but in what way. Are you getting off loads of low quality shots or just not getting the shots of at all?

What type of player is your forward? His he fast, tall, strong, aggressive, hard working, creative, lethal, smart etc?

Your second line up looks a bit blunt tbh, two holding CM's & two wing players not really looking to break lines

I prefer your first lineup tbh but the BBM scares me  Just some ideas to shake it up. Maybe change the AM to a Support to get a bit more involved in build up & help out in the middle. The right winger to Attack to get into the box from wide positions, fullback to Support. The left side then can sort of create an overload for the W(A) on the right & the two FBs on S should make you less likely to be Countered   

[De Nile]

Possibly try a back 3 formation or a 442 diamond to control possession.

I think there needs to a trident sort of attack with one playmaking forward that moves wide and a attacking forward. The AM(a) would drive into channels that the forwards leave behind.

I suggested a back 3 but I don't know if you have the players for it. (3412)

I would use a CM(a) where the BBM is if it is not making more runs into the box and if the box is packed then I would pick player that I wouldn't mind shooting outside the box.

[Johnny Ace]

2 minutes ago, De Nile said:

Possibly try a back 3 formation or a 442 diamond to control possession.

I think there needs to a trident sort of attack with one playmaking forward that moves wide and a attacking forward. The AM(a) would drive into channels that the forwards leave behind.

I suggested a back 3 but I don't know if you have the players for it. (3412)

I would use a CM(a) where the BBM is if it is not making more runs into the box and if the box is packed then I would pick player that I wouldn't mind shooting outside the box.

A CM(A) in a 4-4-2? Madness  

[Tsuru]

24 minutos atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

Depends, you say you're not scoring but in what way. Are you getting off loads of low quality shots or just not getting the shots of at all?

What type of player is your forward? His he fast, tall, strong, aggressive, hard working, creative, lethal, smart etc?

Your second line up looks a bit blunt tbh, two holding CM's & two wing players not really looking to break lines

I prefer your first lineup tbh but the BBM scares me  Just some ideas to shake it up. Maybe change the AM to a Support to get a bit more involved in build up & help out in the middle. The right winger to Attack to get into the box from wide positions, fullback to Support. The left side then can sort of create an overload for the W(A) on the right & the two FBs on S should make you less likely to be Countered   

I don´t know if they are low quality shots, TBH. The ball arrives in the area through passing or crossing, we create the chances, but the strikers/midfielders waste them - the goalkeeper defends, they shot out of goal, in the bar etc. In a game we kicked 25 times, 13 on goal, and the opponent won 2-1 through counters. On another one we had a xG of almost 3 and lost on the only ball the opponent kicked on goal. On a third one we had a very hard time to score although controlling the match and when we finally did the opponent scored in the counter and the final result was 1-1. I know this can happen, the problem is that it keeps happening.

One of our strikers is a Pressing Foward, the other one is a Poacher so they are more the "finishing" type of player, I think. This was also why I considered a 4-4-2 using both of them.

This is your ideas for the first lineup, with a W/WM AT on the right side and the left one more balanced?
 

 

13 minutos atrás, De Nile disse:

Possibly try a back 3 formation or a 442 diamond to control possession.

I think there needs to a trident sort of attack with one playmaking forward that moves wide and a attacking forward. The AM(a) would drive into channels that the forwards leave behind.

I suggested a back 3 but I don't know if you have the players for it. (3412)

I would use a CM(a) where the BBM is if it is not making more runs into the box and if the box is packed then I would pick player that I wouldn't mind shooting outside the box.

The problem is squad building. I did it with a 4-4-1-1 idea, so changing everything could be difficult now. The only option I may consider is a back 3 formation with wingers, but then I would have to get rid of the AMC and the squad management would suffer the same way, I think. I also don´t like narrow formations in FM, too complicated for me.

The BBM plays well at the first lineup. He also scored some goals while the strikers couldn´t, but maybe I could use a simple CM-S as I already have the AM.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Tsuru

[De Nile]

2 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

The only option I may consider is a back 3 formation with wingers, but then I would have to get rid of the AMC and the squad management would suffer the same way, I think.

I thought that teams were camping against you so if they break just have 3 players back to diffuse the counter attack. Is it not possible to use a 3412?

[Tsuru]

4 minutos atrás, De Nile disse:

I thought that teams were camping against you so if they break just have 3 players back to diffuse the counter attack. Is it not possible to use a 3412?

Yes it is, but maybe I would not consider that at this moment as I have 4 wingers at the team and 3 of them would become completely useless. I also had very bad experiences with changing the formation completely and with the 3-4-1-2 itself, in defence, midfield and attack levels. 

You see, if I change antyhing to "counter" the camping teams I would prefer the opposite: move to a ultra aggressive pressing 4-2-3-1 and score more goals than I can suffer. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Tsuru

[Tsuru]

10 minutos atrás, De Nile disse:

I thought that teams were camping against you so if they break just have 3 players back to diffuse the counter attack. Is it not possible to use a 3412?

Oh, I am sorry, you were suggesting a 3-4-1-2 "in line" with no wingbacks and two wide players, a flat four midfield. You said 3-4-1-2 and I thought it was the same formation FM suggests for Vertical Tiki-Taka, for example. The lineups names can be so confusing sometimes 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Tsuru

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, Tsuru said:

I don´t know if they are low quality shots, TBH. The ball arrives in the area through passing or crossing, we create the chances, but the strikers/midfielders waste them - the goalkeeper defends, they shot out of goal, in the bar etc. In a game we kicked 25 times, 13 on goal, and the opponent won 2-1 through counters. On another one we had a xG of almost 3 and lost on the only ball the opponent kicked on goal. I know this can happen, the problem is that it keeps happening.

One of our strikers is a Pressing Foward, the other one is a Poacher so they are more the "finishing" type of player, I think. This was also why I considered a 4-4-2 using both of them.

This is your ideas for the first lineup, with a W/WM AT on the right side and the left one more balanced?
 

 

That looks a lot more "solid" to me, with a nice balance in midfield, I don't think you should have any issue being countered unless your back line are snails 

Sounds like you're underperforming XG then & allowing the opposition to overperform.  XG will give you an idea of the quality of the chance you're creating. I think a penalty is 0.77xg then a really good in play chance is 0.33xg, an unlikely to score chance is something like 0.03xg (you tend to get these from headers off of set pieces). Have a look back through your chances in your analyisis, see if you're getting many 0.15 to 0.33xg chances. If it's not a one off, have look back through a few games. They could be whoever missed the chances was having a bad game or something deeper. It's really hard to say without seeing what's going on 

You might want to start looking at using some TI's to stamp some sort of style based on the players you have

How are the teams lining up against you? 3 atb, DMs, sitting back etc?  

[De Nile]

9 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Oh, I am sorry, you were suggesting a 3-4-1-2 "in line" with no wingbacks and two wide players, a flat four midfield. You said 3-4-1-2 and I thought it was the same formation FM suggests for Vertical Tiki-Taka, for example. The lineups names can be so confusing sometimes 

Yeah    that's what I meant so still not possible?

Even if so you still expressed your unhappiness with a 3atb system, so I guess plan B is to make plan A work.

[Tsuru]

11 minutos atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

That looks a lot more "solid" to me, with a nice balance in midfield, I don't think you should have any issue being countered unless your back line are snails 

Sounds like you're underperforming XG then & allowing the opposition to overperform.  XG will give you an idea of the quality of the chance you're creating. I think a penalty is 0.77xg then a really good in play chance is 0.33xg, an unlikely to score chance is something like 0.03xg (you tend to get these from headers off of set pieces). Have a look back through your chances in your analyisis, see if you're getting many 0.15 to 0.33xg chances. If it's not a one off, have look back through a few games. They could be whoever missed the chances was having a bad game or something deeper. It's really hard to say without seeing what's going on 

You might want to start looking at using some TI's to stamp some sort of style based on the players you have

How are the teams lining up against you? 3 atb, DMs, sitting back etc?  

Thank you. They are not so snails  but maybe a Cover/Stopper pair can also help if the through balls are still happening.

You see, it is not just about the xG - I watch the games on the most possible highlights before the complete game, and in many matches I see my team moving the ball, creating space and chances, but when the ball arrives for the finishing movement we don´t score - you know when it looks hard to do it? We have to kick many balls on goal and opponents just need one or two. It could be a bad day for the strikers, yes, but this problem is happening since the beggining of the season. So three bad months? 

I also considered adding one TI to start playing on the formation´s force - More Direct Passing. The idea is to add some speed and let opponents less time to organize their defence, as we play with a single striker and no advanced wingers. And also because I really like speed and intensity.

Weaker opponents are basically sitting back and trying to deny the spaces, and playing on quick counters. The stronger ones are trying to control the ball and press us hard, but against those ones we have a good retrospect, I think we only lost one match against a direct opponent on attacking the title. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Tsuru

[Tsuru]

1 minuto atrás, De Nile disse:

Yeah    that's what I meant so still not possible?

Even if so you still expressed your unhappiness with a 3atb system, so I guess plan B is to make plan A work.

Yes, in fact the "line 3-4-1-2" is not a bad idea. Normally I use "experimental" formations at the second slot so I can do that. 

[zabyl]

1 saat önce, Tsuru said:

I have been playing with Wrexham at National League and we had a very good start. But after our corner kick strategy stopped working, the real problem showed: we create a lot of chances, move the ball well, but fail to score.

You play a lower league save where physical attributes are more important like acceleration & pace etc. I suggest using roles and duties which uses physical attributes more. A physically strong striker as TMs/a or a speedster AF, Wa on one flank to use pace against slow defenders can increase crossing opportunities. 

 

1 saat önce, Tsuru said:

For this; CM pair is fine. It just needs some attacking variations from LM, CAM and ST.

You use a WMs which can potentially use similar areas as BBM. A Wa can be a better option if you have suited player.

CAM-ST pair are too offensive. Also this is an obvious attacking pattern for taking precautions. Others can't catch up with this pair frequently. One can help others with a support duty; especially the AMC. 

You can use a WMs on the right. This can open space for FBa and create a good passing chain with RFB-RCM-AMC.

 

1 saat önce, Tsuru said:

I don't like this because it lacks central penetration. I would rather not use an APa/s with a support duty striker. You can use a runner AMC like AMa/SS with a support duty striker. Besides CM pair are too static and conservative attackwise. You can use 1 holder, 1 runner pair (not an attack duty runner for 2 man CM partnership).

Edited September 10, 2021 by zabyl

[Johnny Ace]

10 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Thank you. They are not so snails  but maybe a Cover/Stopper pair can also help if the through balls are still happening.

You see, it is not just about the xG - I watch the games on the most possible highlights before the complete game, and in many matches I see my team moving the ball, creating space and chances, but when the ball arrives for the finishing movement we don´t score - you know when it looks hard to do it? We have to kick many balls on goal and opponents just need one or two. It could be a bad day for the strikers, yes, but this problem is happening since the beggining of the season. So three bad months? 

I also considered adding one TI to start playing on the formation´s force - More Direct Passing. The idea is to add some speed and let opponents less time to organize their defence, as we play with a single striker and no advanced wingers. And also because I really like speed and intensity.

Weaker opponents are basically sitting back and trying to deny the spaces, and playing on quick counters. The stronger ones are trying to control the ball and press us hard, but against those ones we have a good retrospect, I think we only lost one match against a direct opponent on attacking the title. 

At least now, I think you're good against counters. An attacking FB in a back 4 with no DM is an awesome outlet but does leave you vulnerable down that flank at times. I guess the AI were spotting that & especially in lower leagues, if a winger's got some pace you're toast 

Try that for a few games, see how you get on, like I say, this run could be deeper, player ability, player morale etc  

[Tsuru]

10 minutos atrás, zabyl disse:

For this; CM pair is fine. It just needs some attacking variations from LM, CAM and ST.

You use a WMs which can potentially use similar areas as BBM. A Wa can be a better option if you have suited player.

CAM-ST pair are too offensive. Also this is an obvious attacking pattern for taking precautions. Others can't catch up with this pair frequently. One can help others with a support duty; especially the AMC. 

You can use a WMs on the right. This can open space for FBa and create a good passing chain with RFB-RCM-AMC.

You mean, you would suggest something like this?
 

 

10 minutos atrás, zabyl disse:

I don't like this because it lacks central penetration. I would rather not use an APa/s with a support duty striker. You can use a runner AMC like AMa/SS with a support duty striker. Besides CM pair are too static and conservative attackwise. You can use 1 holder, 1 runner pair (not an attack duty runner for 2 man CM partnership).

The main problem with this second one is that it uses two playmakers - I really don´t like that. And in fact it didn´t solve the main problem: goals.

9 minutos atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

At least now, I think you're good against counters. An attacking FB in a back 4 with no DM is an awesome outlet but does leave you vulnerable down that flank at times. I guess the AI were spotting that & especially in lower leagues, if a winger's got some pace you're toast 

Try that for a few games, see how you get on, like I say, this run could be deeper, player ability, player morale etc  

Yes, I will do, now I have two variations with your ideas and Zabyl ones and I can change among them if necessary. I will also try a more goalscoring AF instead of the PF and see which combination I like the most with the AM-Su. If I feel I need more help I will come back faster than a BWM 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Tsuru

[Johnny Ace]

4 hours ago, zabyl said:

You play a lower league save where pysical attributes are more important like acceleration & pace etc. I suggest using roles and duties which uses pysical attributes more. A physically strong striker as TMs/a or a speedster AF, Wa on one flank to use pace against slow defenders increase crossing opportunities. 

I wasn't going to say this but I'm playing a rinky dink 4-4-2 down at level 9 up from 14 & my squad building is basically:

• One striker that's fast & can finish
• One striker that's hardworking, strong & tall
• Two fast wingers (crossing's really hard to find so I gave up on that)
• Two CMs that can pass, are strong, tall & hardworking
• Two fullbacks with pace & supporting attributes
• Two CBs that aren't slow & are good in the air
• One or two players that can take a corner &/or a free kick

Currently 1st in a league I'm expected to finish 19th but I'm really finding basing your team DNA on the physicals key because technically, we're down the comparison charts 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Johnny Ace

[zabyl]

2 dakika önce, Tsuru said:

You mean, you would suggest something like this?
 

If these roles suit your players then my answer is yes. If you have a good AMC with off the ball-acceleration-pace-finishing you can change the role to AMa/SS and striker to a support role which suits your best striker. Main point is using your best players' strengths, not a formation/roles/duties someone else created or stereotypes.

For example; use a BWMs instead of BBMs if you have a better CM which suits that role. Because BBM is an all-rounder. At a lower level there can be some difficulties to find a proper player which suits this role.

[De Nile]

 

46 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Yes, in fact the "line 3-4-1-2" is not a bad idea. Normally I use "experimental" formations at the second slot so I can do that. 

In my 3412

             DLF(s).       AF/P

                      AM(s)

WM(Au)   DLP(d)    CM(a).      WM(Au)

            CB(St).     CB(Co)     CB(St)

DLF moves wide

AM(s) moves into channels

Auto WM are good for counter attacks

CM(a) shoots from afar, dribble more, moves into channel

Your 4411

          AF(a)         

                          AM(a)

IW(a).   DLP (d)    BWM/BBM(s). W(a)

FB(s).     CB(d).      CB(d).          FB(s)

Possibly something like this then add TIs to play Wengerball 

AM will need to find space and be in and around the box like Bergkamp

[Tsuru]

23 minutos atrás, zabyl disse:

If these roles suit your players then my answer is yes. If you have a good AMC with off the ball-acceleration-pace-finishing you can change the role to AMa/SS and striker to a support role which suits your best striker. Main point is using your best players' strengths, not a formation/roles/duties someone else created or stereotypes.

For example; use a BWMs instead of BBMs if you have a better CM which suits that role. Because BBM is an all-rounder. At a lower level there can be some difficulties to find a proper player which suits this role.

You see, I want to play the game on the most simplest way. So I normally hire players based on a good attribute for the division (in National League it would be around 9-10), that can play that position, and normally I use FM´s tools to find if the player has good attributes for the roles. Then I try to create something balanced based on the team I have. Also for this reason I normally use the "basic" roles, the BBM specifically was because Callum Jones is very good as one. The 4-4-1-1 was a natural choice as we had wingers and AMC but I didn´t want to play on a riskier 4-2-3-1.

Once I did try to find the strenghts of the team compared to the rest of the division and create a style but it didn´t work well, so I don´t want to play like this anymore. As I said I don´t care about styles or way of playing, it simple doesn´t matter for me. I also don´t have time for this, I barely can play 2 matches in one night, imagine creating and testing a playstyle?

The other side of the coin: if I have a player that is not suited for that role but the team really needs it and there is no other options. who cares? I am the manager, I decide, he will play that way and there we go.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Tsuru

[zabyl]

8 dakika önce, Tsuru said:

Once I did try to find the strenghts of the team compared to the rest of the division and create a style but it didn´t work well, so I don´t want to play like this anymore. As I said I don´t care about styles or way of playing, it simple doesn´t matter for me.

I mean comparing strengths of your players teamwise not as a league. Comparing the division is the complex way, however comparing your players' strengths is the simple way for playing your team's strengths. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by zabyl

[Johnny Ace]

6 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

You see, I want to play the game on the most simplest way. So I normally hire players based on a good attribute for the division (in National League it would be around 9-10), that can play that position, and normally I use FM´s tools to find if the player has good attributes for the roles. Then I try to create something balanced based on the team I have. Also for this reason I normally use the "basic" roles, the BBM specifically was because Callum Jones is very good as one. The 4-4-1-1 was a natural choice as we had wingers and AMC but I didn´t want to play on a riskier 4-2-3-1.

I like this approach but what do you do in game to make the most of your shape's advantages/ disadvantages?

In it's simplest form I'd Focus on the flanks or through the centre depending on how the other team line up.  Like vs a 4-4-2 you've got an advantage through the middle, do you focus play through the centre? Against systems with single flank players who out number you through the centre, do you focus on the flanks?

[Tsuru]

12 minutos atrás, zabyl disse:

I mean comparing strengths of your players teamwise not as a league. Comparing the division is the complex way, however comparing your players' strengths is the simple way for playing your teams strengths. 

Normally I do that on a more "generic" way - if a player is a natural Pressing Foward, he is more suited to be a balanced striker, that can press hard, help the buildup and score. If he is a natural Poacher, he is more suited to be a simple goalscorer. 

If a player is a natural Shadow Striker, he is a more "goalscoring AMC", but sometimes he is as good as a SS as a AP and AM (as mine, Oliver Cooper, is), so he can do a little bit of everything. I always use the "role tool" to confirm that.

It is very hard for me to look at the attributes, see what ones are best and what players do best, specially at lower leagues. I always look and they look awful at everything, or simple don´t do anything very well.

21 minutos atrás, De Nile disse:

Your 4411

          AF(a)         

                          AM(a)

IW(a).   DLP (d)    BWM/BBM(s). W(a)

FB(s).     CB(d).      CB(d).          FB(s)

Possibly something like this then add TIs to play Wengerball 

AM will need to find space and be in and around the box like Bergkamp

I did try this variation but I didn´t like it. I will consider your 3-4-1-2 as an option, though.

9 minutos atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

I like this approach but what do you do in game to make the most of your shape's advantages/ disadvantages?

In it's simplest form I'd Focus on the flanks or through the centre depending on how the other team line up.  Like vs a 4-4-2 you've got an advantage through the middle, do you focus play through the centre? Against systems with single flank players who out number you through the centre, do you focus on the flanks?

This is micromanaging, I don´t have time for this. Also because it is not just about the lineup, I would have to adapt if the other team uses two open wingers or two inside fowards, for example. I would have to look at their team before each match, look at each player, see what is happening on the field...if they change anything I would have to adapt again...

I prefer to play on my way and try to use TIs to adapt to what is happening on the field. If I need to add specifical Tis to create an effect, ok, as I said I am considering to do with More Direct Passing, but I won´t play adapting to opponents before the matches. It is a risk I am aware of.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Tsuru

[Johnny Ace]

30 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

This is micromanaging, I don´t have time for this. Also because it is not just about the lineup, I would have to adapt if the other team uses two open wingers or two inside fowards, for example. I would have to look at their team before each match, look at each player, see what is happening on the field...if they change anything I would have to adapt again...

It's just a simple way of giving your team an advantage, something you might want if you're having a tough run  Start a match, look at their lineup, add the instruction, as simple as you'll get being a football manager. Don't worry about having to check every opposition's player's attributes & roles, just keep your eye on their shape & roles during the game (in their formation widget), it helps you identify what's going on & potential weaknesses in their team

The AI do some weird things, look how they line up at the back & midfield & target your play. Like they might be playing a 4-4-2 with a WB & a BBM on that side, focus down that side of the pitch. Their LB & LCD might be booked, focus down that side of the pitch, change a WM to a Winger, they'll either be easing off the tackles or you could potentially get them sent off. It's just simple managing, not micro management    

Edited September 10, 2021 by Johnny Ace

[zabyl]

33 dakika önce, Tsuru said:

This is micromanaging,

Not so much as you think and it is the easiest way to be successful. For example; you can use focus play where opposition's FB/WB gets forward more to force the passing direction to there and to force the opposition to use another player to cover that space (FB/WB release) to close down your wide attacker which already marks one of your attackers. This creates space for your another attacker because his marker is gone to close down your wide attacker. If another opposition player marks him too, then your other attacker will be free. Like a domino effect...

 

Do you know anything about the "3rd Man" concept in football? I suggest learning this excellent philosophy of modern football for all FM players which struggle to create and exploit space.

Edited September 10, 2021 by zabyl

[zabyl]

Here Xavi explains the 3rd Man concept in Marti Perarnau's Senda De Campeones:

 

"The third man is impossible to defend, impossible ... I'll explain what it means. Imagine Piqué wanting to play with me, but I'm marked, I have a marker (defender) on me, a very aggressive guy. Well, it is clear that Piqué can not pass it to me, it is evident. If I move away, I'll take the marker with me. Then, Messi goes down and becomes the second man. Piqué is the 1st, Messi the 2nd and I the 3rd. I have to be very alert, right?! Piqué, then plays with the 2nd man, Messi, who returns it, and at that moment I'm an option. I'm now free of my marker who has moved to defend closer to the ball. Now I'm totally unmarked and Piqué passes me the ball. If my marker is looking at the ball, cannot see that I'm unmarked and then I appear, I'm the third man. We have already achieved superiority. This is indefensible, it's the Dutch school, it's Cruyff. It is an evolution of the Dutch triangles. "

 

“To look for the third man is, for example, that the central players have the ball and one of them is always open because you always have one player more than opposing strikers. In that case, Puyol has the ball and goes up, up and up until a defender challenges him. If the defender who tries to stop him is my marker, then the third man happens to be me! If it is Iniesta's marker who moves to challenge Puyol , then Andres is the third man. And so we seek superiority in any area of the field. You make a three against two, you win and you have the third man. We advance positions up the field”

Edited September 10, 2021 by zabyl

[Tsuru]

45 minutos atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

It's just a simple way of giving your team an advantage, something you might want if you're having a tough run  Start a match, look at their lineup, add the instruction, as simple as you'll get being a football manager. Don't worry about having to check every opposition's player's attributes & roles, just keep your eye on their shape & roles during the game (in their formation widget), it helps you identify what's going on & potential weaknesses in their team

The AI do some weird things, look how they line up at the back & midfield & target your play. Like they might be playing a 4-4-2 with a WB & a BBM on that side, focus down that side of the pitch. Their LB & LCD might be booked, focus down that side of the pitch, change a WM to a Winger, they'll either be easing off the tackles or you could potentially get them sent off. It's just simple managing, not micro management    

Can you see opposition roles during the match? Normally I can see their formation at the "opposition instructions" screen and at that screen that appears during the highlights, but to see the role/duty I would have to look at each player, wouldn´t I?

Considering that, I could do something very simple: for example if they use a 4-2-3-1 formation I would "Focus Play Through the Centre" as it is their weakness point, if they use a 4-4-2 diamond or 4-1-4-1 DM Wide it would be "Focus Play Down the Flanks". The idea here is not to focus on a specific player, but use an overall strategy to find more space against that opponent, as you suggested before. And I can add another TIs during the match if I think they are necessary. Focus Play look to be less invasive than changing passing directness or wide of play, which would affect all the team. I also don´t like changing roles and duties because it can create formation unbalance. 

I used a similar strategy on a save in FM 17 with Lecce, but instead of "Focus Play..." I had two different formations, a 4-2-3-1 deep and a 4-4-2 diamond narrow, and I used to change them depending on the opposition. 

37 minutos atrás, zabyl disse:

Not so much as you think and it is the easiest way to be successful. For example; you can use focus play where opposition's FB/WB gets forward more to force the passing direction to there and to force the opposition to use another player to cover that space (FB/WB release) to close down your wide attacker which already marks one of your attackers. This creates space for your another attacker because his marker is gone to close down your wide attacker. If another opposition player marks him too, then your other attacker will be free. Like a domino effect...

Do you know anything about the "3rd Man" concept in football? I suggest learning this excellent philosophy of modern football for all FM players which struggle to create and exploit space.

But how do I know if their FB/WB is getting foward more or if it is just a FB-Su which in that moment is attacking more, like mine does? Can you really see that just looking at the pitch? Normally I cannot, if I could see their roles/duties in formation ok, but just looking at the match?

I have read about the 3rd man, yes, Sampaoli follows this philosophy strictly and he changes his formations a lot to create this effect.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Tsuru

[zabyl]

16 dakika önce, Tsuru said:

But how do I know if their FB/WB is getting foward more or if it is just a FB-Su which in that moment is attacking more, like mine does? Can you really see that just looking at the pitch? Normally I cannot, if I could see their roles/duties in formation ok, but just looking at the match?

You can easily notice with looking opposition's transitions from defence to attack or attack to defence. Also you can notice your team's weak points with paying attention to your team's transitions.

[Johnny Ace]

17 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Can you see opposition roles during the match? Normally I can see their formation at the "opposition instructions" screen and at that screen that appears during the highlights, but to see the role/duty I would have to look at each player, wouldn´t I?

Considering that, I could do something very simple: for example if they use a 4-2-3-1 formation I would "Focus Play Through the Centre" as it is their weakness point, if they use a 4-4-2 diamond or 4-1-4-1 DM Wide it would be "Focus Play Down the Flanks". The idea here is not to focus on a specific player, but use an overall strategy to find more space against that opponent, as you suggested before. And I can add another TIs during the match if I think they are necessary. Focus Play look to be less invasive than changing passing directness or wide of play, which would affect all the team. I also don´t like changing roles and duties because it can create formation unbalance. 

Yeah you can. I have a skin in FM so not sure it's down to that, but I can see the shape then after 20 minutes or so my data analysts figure out the roles. In FM Touch it's the same with the default skin so I guess it's in the default skin of the normal game

Yes, that's the idea!! Just simple things, against a 4-2-3-1 or vs a team coming at you, you can pass into space/ go more direct to make use of the space in front of the DL or behind it sort of thing

[Tsuru]

9 minutos atrás, zabyl disse:

You can easily notice with looking opposition's transitions from defence to attack or attack to defence. Also you can notice your team's weak points with paying attention to your team's transitions.

TBH, I cannot, for me this is one of the hardest things to do. I did try sometimes in FM 17 but it was a complete disaster, I never "guessed right" what they were doing, I prefer to approach this by their formation.

4 minutos atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

Yeah you can. I have a skin in FM so not sure it's down to that, but I can see the shape then after 20 minutes or so my data analysts figure out the roles. In FM Touch it's the same with the default skin so I guess it's in the default skin of the normal game

Yes, that's the idea!! Just simple things, against a 4-2-3-1 or vs a team coming at you, you can pass into space/ go more direct to make use of the space in front of the DL or behind it sort of thing

I cannot see at the game without the skin, so I would have to "guess" what is happening.

You see Johnny, I need method - math, rule, way of doing it, very strict and very specific, I don´t want to change it specifically against each team. I could have a specific way and method for each formation, for example, and then apply it everytime I see it. Then it would be ok. It wouldn´t work always, but nothing does.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Tsuru

[zabyl]

5 dakika önce, Tsuru said:

TBH, I cannot, for me this is one of the hardest things to do. I did try sometimes in FM 17 but it was a complete disaster, I never "guessed right" what they were doing, I prefer to approach this by their formation.

You can add this to @Cleon 's post. He can explain these things better than me. By the way you can watch @Rashidi on his youtube channels bustthenet/daljit's moments. He is fast to spot something on transitions. His "bring your tactics" series are an excellent tool for people who struggles on these things.

 

 

[Tsuru]

7 minutos atrás, zabyl disse:

You can add this to @Cleon 's post. He can explain these things better than me. By the way you can watch @Rashidi on his youtube channels bustthenet/daljit's moments. He is fast to spot something on transitions. His "bring your tactics" series are an excellent tool for people who struggles on these things.

 

 

In fact I did see a lot of Rashidi videos, there I truly understood mentality. And Cleon has one of my favourite articles of all time here: https://www.fmscout.com/a-how-to-set-up-a-defensive-442-diamond-narrow.html

But for me it is almost impossible to see and identify what the opponent is doing, I have to guess a lot and I simply gave up on that. I prefer to manage this on another way and focus on what my team should do.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Tsuru

[Johnny Ace]

31 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

I cannot see at the game without the skin, so I would have to "guess" what is happening.

You see Johnny, I need method - math, rule, way of doing it, very strict and very specific, I don´t want to change it specifically against each team. I could have a specific way and method for each formation, for example, and then apply it everytime I see it. Then it would be ok. It wouldn´t work always, but nothing does.

I just Googled Football Manager 2021 in game shots & it showed both formations & roles, it doesn't show duties, I couldn't post the picture here to show you but I'm pretty sure it's in the default skin, it's not secret information or anything  

ETA: Here it is 

It shows you their formation on the lineups screen at the start of each match at least so apply your TI's then

I'm with you mate, it would take a full year to do a season if you micro managed everything so find your way of playing & stick with it. Some people round here do a season in a day somehow!!

I've found with this year's FM, results can be more random than ever & you'll get a smashing out of no where every now & then, so don't get disheartened by it as it happens in RL too just crack on 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Johnny Ace
Added pic

[Rashidi]

31 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

But for me it is almost impossible to see and identify what the opponent is doing

In the game you can see what formation the opposition is playing, at half time you will see their roles. You can also check the heatmaps during the course of the game to see whats going on. So the tools are there. Thats as much information as needed for most people.

The only thing you should be worried about is the weaknesses of your own formation. All you do during a game is to look and see if its being exploited. Say for example you are playing a higher defensive line with wingbacks. The weakness is the flanks on the counter. So you look to see if you are keeping the ball and doing something with it. 

Basically you are looking to see if your own formation is working. Don't worry about the opponent, worry about yourself first.  If you are doing well then I wouldn't bother with what the AI is doing.  If you doing poorly I would focus on improving your own tactic. 

When you see people doing things like tweaking or switch systems to take advantage of weaknesses, that's playing on another level. I advised someone once to just master the 442 and its permutations, he went and now is going undefeated in multiple seasons with his 442 and he has so many permutations of his own system, cos he understands it and knows how to make minor adjustments to make it play differently. 

Don't fall into the trap of overcomplicating it. 

[Tsuru]

6 minutos atrás, Rashidi disse:

In the game you can see what formation the opposition is playing, at half time you will see their roles. You can also check the heatmaps during the course of the game to see whats going on. So the tools are there. Thats as much information as needed for most people.

The only thing you should be worried about is the weaknesses of your own formation. All you do during a game is to look and see if its being exploited. Say for example you are playing a higher defensive line with wingbacks. The weakness is the flanks on the counter. So you look to see if you are keeping the ball and doing something with it. 

Basically you are looking to see if your own formation is working. Don't worry about the opponent, worry about yourself first.  If you are doing well then I wouldn't bother with what the AI is doing.  If you doing poorly I would focus on improving your own tactic. 

When you see people doing things like tweaking or switch systems to take advantage of weaknesses, that's playing on another level. I advised someone once to just master the 442 and its permutations, he went and now is going undefeated in multiple seasons with his 442 and he has so many permutations of his own system, cos he understands it and knows how to make minor adjustments to make it play differently. 

Don't fall into the trap of overcomplicating it. 

Thank you, Rashidi. I was here sketching up some variations to counter different formations but yes, it seems so difficult and complicated. I will play my 4-4-1-1 more and insist with it as I really like that formation. I will try to improve it and "master it" before anything else.

[Rashidi]

Yeah if you do that, you will actually get better in the long run instead of trying to counter everything everyone is throwing at you. Trust me that road is a frustrating one to take.

[toshimitzou1]

On 10/09/2021 at 15:28, Rashidi said:

Yeah if you do that, you will actually get better in the long run instead of trying to counter everything everyone is throwing at you. Trust me that road is a frustrating one to take.

Amen to that. The least enjoyable FM experience I recently had was playing a season where I was making tactical tweaks every game in order to counter the opponent's threats. Upon review, it was more an indication that my roles, duties and formation were not suitable and so, the following season I took a step back and focused more on my own team's strengths and weaknesses. This eventually resulted in better performances and far less interventions and for me, a more enjoyable experience.

 

On 10/09/2021 at 14:17, Tsuru said:

I don´t want to change it specifically against each team. I could have a specific way and method for each formation, for example, and then apply it everytime I see it

This is exactly how I prefer to operate. I like to have my standard set-up, with two variants trained for use when an opponent uses a formation/tactical style that, over time, I have realised we are weak against. 

If you are interested, I am using a 4411 2 DM that has served me well in a Youth Academy Challenge (cannot sign payers)? It is quite basic but has allowed me to perform well-above expectations for a long-time and has a collection of roles and duties that can be adjusted based on the varied abilities of available players (injuries, match - load etc.). Let me know if so and good luck with the 4411 if not.

[zabyl]

1 saat önce, toshimitzou1 said:

Amen to that. The least enjoyable FM experience I recently had was playing a season where I was making tactical tweaks every game in order to counter the opponent's threats. Upon review, it was more an indication that my roles, duties and formation were not suitable and so, the following season I took a step back and focused more on my own team's strengths and weaknesses. This eventually resulted in better performances and far less interventions and for me, a more enjoyable experience.

Playing this game with combining my team's strengths with opponent's weaknesses; is my way of achieving success for decades on FM series...

[Tsuru]

2 horas atrás, toshimitzou1 disse:

Amen to that. The least enjoyable FM experience I recently had was playing a season where I was making tactical tweaks every game in order to counter the opponent's threats. Upon review, it was more an indication that my roles, duties and formation were not suitable and so, the following season I took a step back and focused more on my own team's strengths and weaknesses. This eventually resulted in better performances and far less interventions and for me, a more enjoyable experience.

This is exactly how I prefer to operate. I like to have my standard set-up, with two variants trained for use when an opponent uses a formation/tactical style that, over time, I have realised we are weak against. 

If you are interested, I am using a 4411 2 DM that has served me well in a Youth Academy Challenge (cannot sign payers)? It is quite basic but has allowed me to perform well-above expectations for a long-time and has a collection of roles and duties that can be adjusted based on the varied abilities of available players (injuries, match - load etc.). Let me know if so and good luck with the 4411 if not.

Yes, yes, yes. FM is not a simple game itself, so we should not complicate and play the way we feel most comfortable. I see you created a plan B for formations/tactics that you know you are weak against, but I suppose you did that after much time of observation and development of your team´s positive points. That is just where am I know, so maybe in the future that plan B will be also necessary.

I really never though about a 4411 2 DM and I am very interested in it, yes - it can be plan A or B for us and solve one of the formation´s biggest weaknesses, that is, the space behind the two central midfielders. Could you please share here?

Thank you!

13 minutos atrás, zabyl disse:

Playing this game with combining my team's strengths with opponent's weaknesses; is my way of achieving success for decades on FM series...

I think this is "another level" as Rashidi said, I am not there yet 

[Johnny Ace]

How are you getting on now @Tsuru??

[Tsuru]

52 minutos atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

How are you getting on now @Tsuru??

I only had time to play one or two more matches (I really don´t remember). I used this setup:
 

 

Why a SS/PF-S pair? Because I don´t feel comfortable with AM-Su/AF, I think it is a lot of burden to the single striker and it can lead to isolation. Also Oliver Cooper is a natural SS, so I went this way for pure preference. And in general Cooper and Miller did well on this pairing. The interesting part is that we have two very good youngsters, one is a natural PF and the other one a natural SS, so the idea is to use this pattern in the future.

Also the W-At did the flank very well, we created many chances through the right side.

We were suffering with lots of through balls in the middle of the defence, so the Stopper/Cover was an idea to help this and it worked well. 

We did a very good first half and went to HT winning 2-0, but the team was very tired during second half, Torquay scored once and had a penalty, but they wasted it. This is happening a lot - on a game we opened 3-0 and opponents scored three times even with very simple strategies to hold the lead.

I need to improve three specific points:

• The team is becoming too tired during the second half and cannot handle opponents´ pressure. With just 5 on the bench I don´t have many options, so I will try different strategies to hold the lead, because the current ones (use the TIs to Play for Free Kicks and/or Be More Disciplined) are not working well;
   
• The defence-midfield transitions are not working well. The fullbacks and centre-backs are simple hoofing the ball away, sometimes it works, sometimes not. I suspect this is due to the lack of the holding midfielder, as the Deep Lying Playmaker positions himself higher on the pitch. I will try to use a WB-D to become this "third defence man" and help on the start of the buildup. The idea was to use a WB-D on the right behind the W-At, but I will see in which side it works better. If I don´t like it I will evaluate if I need a truly holding midfielder or maybe use one of my youngsters as a IWB-Su, as he is a natural one;
   
• I don´t like CM-Su, I think it does nothing very well: he does not help protecting the defence, does not attack enough and doesn´t offer many movement. I will probably test a BWM-Su as he can help the DLP but also offer some movement ahead, and because Callum Jones is a very good BWM.  Otherwise I can evaluate the CM-Su with PIs or even another role.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Tsuru

[toshimitzou1]

1 minute ago, Tsuru said:

but I suppose you did that after much time of observation and development of your team´s positive points.

Absolutely. After having the tactic implemented for two or three seasons, I begun to notice that I struggled against certain formations and playstyles. To solve this, I indeed have a Plan B which is more an adjustment of roles, duties, mentality, transitional play and the addition of player instructions. The team shape and general style remains largely unchanged.

 

5 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

the space behind the two central midfielders.

That was the primary motivation behind the choice of shape. Before adopting the 2DM, any team with a quality AM or Narrow creativity would decimate me even when operating with a single DM. 

 

7 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Could you please share here?

Absolutely. This is the what I have used for the past two seasons.

If you want to see how I have come to this incarnation it might be worth reading my posts in the following thread:

I joined the challenge a couple of months ago so you may well want to view my posts through my profile activity to get an idea if what is required. The beauty of it is the flexibility of roles and duties. I believe, within this shape, as long as you select cohesive roles and duties that a player can CAPABLY execute, it can be tailored to most squad rosters.

I am about to implement the 4411 2DM for the following season with a new set of roles and duties. I am about to write up the how and why in the Youth Academy Challenge but here is the outline for now:

Hope this helps!

[Tsuru]

10 minutos atrás, toshimitzou1 disse:

Absolutely. After having the tactic implemented for two or three seasons, I begun to notice that I struggled against certain formations and playstyles. To solve this, I indeed have a Plan B which is more an adjustment of roles, duties, mentality, transitional play and the addition of player instructions. The team shape and general style remains largely unchanged.

 

That was the primary motivation behind the choice of shape. Before adopting the 2DM, any team with a quality AM or Narrow creativity would decimate me even when operating with a single DM. 

 

Absolutely. This is the what I have used for the past two seasons.

If you want to see how I have come to this incarnation it might be worth reading my posts in the following thread:

I joined the challenge a couple of months ago so you may well want to view my posts through my profile activity to get an idea if what is required. The beauty of it is the flexibility of roles and duties. I believe, within this shape, as long as you select cohesive roles and duties that a player can CAPABLY execute, it can be tailored to most squad rosters.

I am about to implement the 4411 2DM for the following season with a new set of roles and duties. I am about to write up the how and why in the Youth Academy Challenge but here is the outline for now:

Hope this helps!

Ooooh, I really like the first one. Because Oliver Cooper can play as good as SS or as a Wide Playmaker on the left, so I could use Owen Beck/Cooper on the left and Hoole/Caton on the right. And put Miller/Titchner playing together as a true attacking pair.

Do you use any PIs on any of the DM-Su, maybe the one on the right being asked to hold position or something?

I think I will set this initially as a plan B but test it on our next match, if I like I can stick with it.

Thank you!

Edited September 13, 2021 by Tsuru

[Johnny Ace]

25 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

I need to improve three specific points:

• The team is becoming too tired during the second half and cannot handle opponents´ pressure. With just 5 on the bench I don´t have many options, so I will try different strategies to hold the lead, because the current ones (use the TIs to Play for Free Kicks and/or Be More Disciplined) are not working well;
   
• The defence-midfield transitions are not working well. The fullbacks and centre-backs are simple hoofing the ball away, sometimes it works, sometimes not. I suspect this is due to the lack of the holding midfielder, as the Deep Lying Playmaker positions himself higher on the pitch. I will try to use a WB-D to become this "third defence man" and help on the start of the buildup. The idea was to use a WB-D on the right behind the W-At, but I will see in which side it works better. If I don´t like it I will evaluate if I need a truly holding midfielder or maybe use one of my youngsters as a IWB-Su, as he is a natural one;
   
• I don´t like CM-Su, I think it does nothing very well: he does not help protecting the defence, does not attack enough and doesn´t offer many movement. I will probably test a BWM-Su as he can help the DLP but also offer some movement ahead, and because Callum Jones is a very good BWM.  Otherwise I can evaluate the CM-Su with PIs or even another role.

Looks good, I love a SS & a PF, two fun roles with the right players! 

• You're tactic doesn't look too strenuous on the players, is it fixture congestion? Too keep a lead I like other strategies. Time wasting & holding onto the ball (they can't score if you have the ball) so narrow, slower tempo, shorting passing, try to frustrate the opposition if they're chasing a lead. Also, your winger on attack (ie a runner looking to score, a threat to lose the ball) could become a WM-S to lock down that flank & make you even harder to break down & he can be more focused on keeping the ball
• Not sure on the def to mid transitions, the two CMs should be offering themselves & the fullbacks should be a wide option for your centre backs.
• BMW could be an option, just remember, all he has to do is help defend in midfield & get the ball forward or wide, he'll do nothing fancy.  

 

[toshimitzou1]

6 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Ooooh, I really like the first one. Because Oliver Cooper can play as good as SS or as a Wide Playmaker on the left, so I could use Owen Beck/Cooper on the left and Hoole/Caton on the right. And put Miller/Titchner playing together as a true attacking pair.

Do you use any PIs on any of the DM-Su, maybe the one on the right being asked to hold position or something?

I think I will set this initially as a plan B but test it on our next match, if I like I can stick with it.

Thank you!

I really suggest you read my posts in the thread https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/531472-the-fm21-youth-academy-challenge/ that I offered a link to.

Here is a link to an example of when the tactic really started functioning: https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/531472-the-fm21-youth-academy-challenge/?do=findComment&comment=13238536.

Please keep in mind, it is the distribution of roles and duties allayed with individual player traits and attributes which will determine how the 4411 2DM will work for you.

 

[Tsuru]

6 minutos atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

Looks good, I love a SS & a PF, two fun roles with the right players! 

• You're tactic doesn't look too strenuous on the players, is it fixture congestion? Too keep a lead I like other strategies. Time wasting & holding onto the ball (they can't score if you have the ball) so narrow, slower tempo, shorting passing, try to frustrate the opposition if they're chasing a lead. Also, your winger on attack (ie a runner looking to score, a threat to lose the ball) could become a WM-S to lock down that flank & make you even harder to break down & he can be more focused on keeping the ball
• Not sure on the def to mid transitions, the two CMs should be offering themselves & the fullbacks should be a wide option for your centre backs.
• BMW could be an option, just remember, all he has to do is help defend in midfield & get the ball forward or wide, he'll do nothing fancy.  

 

Yes, on National League it is normal for a team to play matches within the difference of 2 days and we only have 5 in the bench. So this creates a good challenge - we cannot have a very big squad as many players wouldn´t have the opportunity to play (and there is no enough money), and with just few on the bench it is harder to have options to substitute tired players. I do my best, but the fixture congestion challenges us all the time.

I agree that the CMs should offer the options but they are not - I know that one of the CBs have the trait to do more direct passes, so this may also be a problem. But he is not the only one and I don´t know why the team is rushing the play.

I really like the 4-4-1-1 but it looks so complicated sometimes, I have the feeling that something is always missing.

14 minutos atrás, toshimitzou1 disse:

I really suggest you read my posts in the thread https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/531472-the-fm21-youth-academy-challenge/ that I offered a link to.

Here is a link to an example of when the tactic really started functioning: https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/531472-the-fm21-youth-academy-challenge/?do=findComment&comment=13238536.

Please keep in mind, it is the distribution of roles and duties allayed with individual player traits and attributes which will determine how the 4411 2DM will work for you.

Thank you, I will check the attributes and see if the formation fits the squad before setting it up.

[Johnny Ace]

4 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Yes, on National League it is normal for a team to play matches within the difference of 2 days and we only have 5 in the bench. So this creates a good challenge - we cannot have a very big squad as many players wouldn´t have the opportunity to play (and there is no enough money), and with just few on the bench it is harder to have options to substitute tired players. I do my best, but the fixture congestion challenges us all the time.

I agree that the CMs should offer the options but they are not - I know that one of the CBs have the trait to do more direct passes, so this may also be a problem. But he is not the only one and I don´t know why the team is rushing the play.

I really like the 4-4-1-1 but it looks so complicated sometimes, I have the feeling that something is always missing.

Thank you, I will check the attributes and see if the formation fits the squad before setting it up.

That will be the culprit then! PPMs are powerful & either help or hinder! Just keep your eye on it, the DLP should be offering himself for a pass (as part of his hidden PIs) he may not have the mentals or pace to get back before your centre back lumps it 

It can be brutal in the lower leagues, Saturday then Monday is no fun. If it helps, don't bother having a sub goalkeeper & you can always bring in players on a non-contract (they don't play, you don't pay), just don't promise them first team football, bring them in as fringe players 

Have faith in your tactic, it's very decent. At lower levels, players have lower team work which means they won't be listening to you all that much anyway & won't always have the skill to pull off what you're asking of them so don't sweat it too much, just keep working at bringing in better players on a shoe string.

[Tsuru]

2 minutos atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

That will be the culprit then! PPMs are powerful & either help or hinder! Just keep your eye on it, the DLP should be offering himself for a pass (as part of his hidden PIs) he may not have the mentals or pace to get back before your centre back lumps it 

It can be brutal in the lower leagues, Saturday then Monday is no fun. If it helps, don't bother having a sub goalkeeper & you can always bring in players on a non-contract (they don't play, you don't pay), just don't promise them first team football, bring them in as fringe players 

Have faith in your tactic, it's very decent. At lower levels, players have lower team work which means they won't be listening to you all that much anyway & won't always have the skill to pull off what you're asking of them so don't sweat it too much, just keep working at bringing in better players on a shoe string.

Thank you for all your help and support.

We finished the first trimester in 2nd place, 5 points behind the leader Cheltenham, so in general we are doing fine and are on the way to the playoffs. The media expectation was a 4th place and the board directors wanted us to be on top half, so we are above expectations. Any tests from now on should be very specific and small, in order not to throw away everything we did until now.

[zabyl]

2 saat önce, Tsuru said:

The team is becoming too tired during the second half and cannot handle opponents´ pressure. With just 5 on the bench I don´t have many options,

Do you use this screen @Tsuru?

Maybe it can help that condition issue. I use these settings for lower league saves. You can set second lowest condition to no pitch or gym work too.

I always use versatile players for subs on lower league saves.

 

2 saat önce, Tsuru said:

The defence-midfield transitions are not working well. The fullbacks and centre-backs are simple hoofing the ball away, sometimes it works, sometimes not. I suspect this is due to the lack of the holding midfielder, as the Deep Lying Playmaker positions himself higher on the pitch. I will try to use a WB-D to become this "third defence man" and help on the start of the buildup. The idea was to use a WB-D on the right behind the W-At, but I will see in which side it works better. If I don´t like it I will evaluate if I need a truly holding midfielder or maybe use one of my youngsters as a IWB-Su, as he is a natural one;

Do you use bring ball out of defence TI? It forces your "CM"s to come deep. By the way I don't suggest distributing the ball to "CB"s at that low level.

 

2 saat önce, Tsuru said:

I don´t like CM-Su, I think it does nothing very well: he does not help protecting the defence, does not attack enough and doesn´t offer many movement. I will probably test a BWM-Su as he can help the DLP but also offer some movement ahead, and because Callum Jones is a very good BWM.  Otherwise I can evaluate the CM-Su with PIs or even another role.

On playing such low levels, using more specialist role for runner CM can be a better way. Because CMs concentrates more subjects than any other CM role. So BWMs/BBMs can do the job better for you. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by zabyl

[Tsuru]

15 minutos atrás, zabyl disse:

Do you use this screen @Tsuru?

Maybe it can help that condition issue. I use these settings for lower league saves. You can set second lowest condition to no pitch or gym work too.

Normally I let the training to the assistant manager. For this reason, I think I should rotate the squad a little bit more - I have some players at the bench which could be at the first team. Even if they are not good as the "main" ones, a "main" tired player does not do the job, don´t you agree? So we can loose a little bit of quality to earn more condition playing.

15 minutos atrás, zabyl disse:

Do you use bring ball out of defence TI? It forces your "CM"s to come deep. By the way I don't suggest distributing the ball to "CB"s at that low level.

No, normally I don´t use POOD as everybody says it is a very complicated TI to use, specially on lower levels. In fact I have been starting to develop the tactic without any Tis. But you are right when you say that it would make sense as an instruction to correct an issue I spotted, I think I will try it instead of the WB-D.

I am not also distributing the ball specifically to anyone, I did some tests on distributing it to the fullbacks and it worked, but I prefer to leave my GK free to decide.

15 minutos atrás, zabyl disse:

On playing such low levels, using more specialist role for runner CM can be a better way. Because CMs concentrates more subjects than any other CM role. So BWMs/BBMs can do the job better for you. 

Yes, it also makes sense. As the WM-Su does a similar role to the BBM but on the flanks and I don´t have a holding midfielder, a BWM looks to be the best option. For a very good player like Callum Jones, which can do almost any role from DMC to AMC positions, I think being a BWM won´t be a problem. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Tsuru

[Tsuru]

So thank you all that contributed to this tactic with ideas and suggestions. The 4-4-1-1 is so complicated and I found width and penetration problems that were hard to solve. So I have been using a 4-4-2 lately:

This is a kind of "Sacchi style 4-4-2", focused on controlling the ball and attacking the space, inspired by another one I saw here at the forums some time ago (https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/516635-4-4-2-modern-control-and-attack-space/). I am using PIs to orientate the crossings to the AF and also PIs on the WM, which has instructions to play like a winger as he is a natural winger. I also tested a "Get Further Foward" PI on the CM but I prefer him with no instructions. 

Before changing the system and using the roles above I checked my team player by player to be sure that they have good attributes for each role/duty - for example, although a natural Winger Charlie Caton has good attributes for a Wide Midfielder. And Oliver Cooper is a natural Inverted Winger but has very nice attributes to play as a Wide Playmaker. I really believe this check is very necessary on FM´s most recent versions, using roles/duties without good attributes for them could be a recipe for disaster.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Tsuru