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Inverted wingback and mezzala


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[ENGLISH IS NOT MY MOTHER TONGUE]

I'm creating a tactic based on guardiola's 4123. 

Figure1.thumb.jpg.0cb3c34cfec52fc23af35ad3dd39b1cd.jpg

Guardiola played the positional play and he changed a lot how the wingbacks were playing. I loved when he played with inverted wingbacks and i'm actually trying using that role. 

tactic.PNG.36a9826fa3b37f8c501cd1b97d551559.PNG

my tactic actually works and all. we create a lot of triangles and diamonds overloading one side of the field and we score great goals. 

2.PNG.5bc8ec2e8b9dae192e9d04ef013b2df4.PNG

Not the best screenshot cause Calise is actually a bit behind of where he should be but you understand.

I have only one problem but i really don't know if it's caused by players' attributes or by roles not working together:

Buildup phase:

Acquisisci.PNG.7148f8ffa666161096bb3caeb10a5d4c.PNG

Rainone, as an inverted-wingback, has the ability to roam from position and choose the best position for himself but a lot of times he just goes where the mezzala is. This problem is only on the buildup phase, cause after that, IVW and MEZ change position and find a good one.

ezgif-6-5690dc715f9a.gif.5f7e46fefdb28676424f5977cddbde70.gif

 

I think the problem is just the player's attributes but i really don't know cause that's not so bad to do that mistake everytime.

Rainone.PNG.0e55d2a44d7c6330ed3f436d9e830234.PNG

And if that's the wingback problem, why is the mezzala still going into that spot?

Edited by Andrew Marines
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33 minutes ago, Andrew Marines said:

Rainone, as an inverted-wingback, has the ability to roam from position and choose the best position for himself but a lot of times he just goes where the mezzala is.

That's the sort of problem you run into when you have an IW, MEZ and IWB; they occupy the same space. You'll have to change one of those roles 

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3 minuti fa, DarJ ha scritto:

That's the sort of problem you run into when you have an IW, MEZ and IWB; they occupy the same space. You'll have to change one of those roles 

It's only on the build up phase. It should be everytime(on the final third too) then but not the case

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35 minutes ago, Andrew Marines said:

It's only on the build up phase. It should be everytime(on the final third too) then but not the case

It's on the build up phase because the IWB's final position (or towards the end of the phase) is directly in the Mez's starting path. That's why the positions differ the later in the move you get. So when he ventures forward but the ball stays behind him or is played back to your other defenders, he holds his position and the Mez also drops deep. That's why they occupy the spaces they do and that only changes when the ball is really advanced again. Your options here would be to change the duty possibly on the IWB if its becoming a cause for concern or change the role of the Mez.

But if the rest of the time, it's working like intended then it's likely something you'll have to live with and a drawback of the system/settings you use.

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12 minuti fa, Cleon ha scritto:

it's working like intended then it's likely something you'll have to live with and a drawback of the system/settings you use.

Okay, so, in your opinion, he'll do that anyway. If i buy a man with decision 20, anticipation 20, etc, this will always happen

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6 minutes ago, Andrew Marines said:

 

Okay, so, in your opinion, he'll do that anyway. If i buy a man with decision 20, anticipation 20, etc, this will always happen

What player traits do both players currently have?

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Did you mirror the roles of RCM-LCM to see if other side has the same issue? If it is hardcoded as @Cleon explained, you can see it again. If not, then it is due to player ability or PPMs. 

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6 minutes ago, zabyl said:

Did you mirror the roles of RCM-LCM to see if other side has the same issue? If it is hardcoded as @Cleon explained, you can see it again. If not, then it is due to player ability or PPMs. 

It's not hardcoded as such. More a by-product of the roles/duties he is using. Maybe if the other CM was deeper than the Mez, then the Mez might not be as far over as he is. But I don't think that will help much. I just think its a bad combination in general down the left. Both wide players come inside and the Mez plays in the same space. Even in the examples of good play he posted, you can see that he has 4 players all in a similar area. His IWB, Mez and IW aren't doing stuff that different in the images.

Edit - Actually you can kind of see the same thing happening on the right side too in one of the images. There's a bit more spacing than his original complaint. But depending on the phase of play and where the ball is, the same already happens on the right side 100%

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24 minuti fa, Cleon ha scritto:

It's not hardcoded as such. More a by-product of the roles/duties he is using. Maybe if the other CM was deeper than the Mez, then the Mez might not be as far over as he is. But I don't think that will help much. I just think its a bad combination in general down the left. Both wide players come inside and the Mez plays in the same space. Even in the examples of good play he posted, you can see that he has 4 players all in a similar area. His IWB, Mez and IW aren't doing stuff that different in the images.

Edit - Actually you can kind of see the same thing happening on the right side too in one of the images. There's a bit more spacing than his original complaint. But depending on the phase of play and where the ball is, the same already happens on the right side 100%

the problem is that players on the right are as good as the left. 

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1 hour ago, Andrew Marines said:

I've found a solution but i'm gonna test it out.

Inverted wingbacks on defense but mentality balanced-->offensive and focus down left/right so individual mentality is still positive

Nice solution. You'll find IWBD's are far more reserved in their positioning & aggressiveness than IWBS's. 

IWBD's are a very underused role that actually are pretty fantastic, a bit like WPA's & the ever brilliant Carrilero. 

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Going from balanced to offensive mentality might bring a whole lot of other issues though, specially in terms of tempo and directness. Are you adjusting TIs to account for that ?

Might be worth tinkering with PPMs with a new save and the editor for both players to see if you can do it this way too.

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I actually play this kind of system, and find the exact same issues. I’ve played this way pretty much consistently throughout the last few iterations of FM, to varying degrees of success.

This year, with improvements to the ME, it’s been the most successful and enjoyable to watch when it clicks. However, I too am frustrated with the positioning (and intelligence maybe?) of the roles in question. 
 

I don’t often see the IWB and MEZ get into each other’s space, and if they do it’s momentarily and doesn’t disrupt the build up. This only tends to happen often when the IWB has the PPM ‘Gets Forward’. 

My biggest issue, is the MEZ and IW or W getting into each others way in the final third. Even when I instruct them to stay wider (Winger naturally stays wider) they tuck in very early, and nobody is holding width.
 

On the rare occasion the IWB is smart enough to realise there’s nobody in the wild channel, and they move to overlap, which is cool. 
 

I’ve seen people on various threads, particularly in reference to Guardiola’s style, attempting to fix this by dropping the wingers into the ML strata. I notice a slight improvement but feel it harms my pressing, so it’s not really a viable solution. 
 

One way I have tried to counteract it whilst keeping the high press is to instruct my team to player Wider. Although I feel it contradicts my shorter passing instructions and doesn’t play to the strengths of my False 9 and double Mezzala’s. 
 

I have tried to balance the system in the past by playing a traditional wingback behind an Inside Forward on one side, but I can never get the best out of overlapping fullbacks for some reason. Most of the time they just cross into the legs of the opposing defender for a corner…rinse and repeat. 

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One of peps principles is he always has players playing high and wide, I don’t see either in your tactic.

His full backs always play in different vertical spaces than his wingers, yours don’t, I think you need to look at your roles here.

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15 ore fa, YAMS ha scritto:

Nice solution. You'll find IWBD's are far more reserved in their positioning & aggressiveness than IWBS's. 

IWBD's are a very underused role that actually are pretty fantastic, a bit like WPA's & the ever brilliant Carrilero. 

Still testing it out but i don't have the same pressure that inverted on support could do. 

 

15 ore fa, Fatkidscantjump ha scritto:

Going from balanced to offensive mentality might bring a whole lot of other issues though, specially in terms of tempo and directness. Are you adjusting TIs to account for that ?


Could be.

14 ore fa, Fantasista10 ha scritto:

On the rare occasion the IWB is smart enough to realise there’s nobody in the wild channel, and they move to overlap, which is cool. 

ye, i'm trying to achieve that but FB still always overlap and IWB seems like they aren't smart enough to understand something.

13 ore fa, Hilly1979 ha scritto:

One of peps principles is he always has players playing high and wide, I don’t see either in your tactic.

His full backs always play in different vertical spaces than his wingers, yours don’t, I think you need to look at your roles here.

Our width is extremely wide and IWs have an individual instruction to stay wider and roam from position. In that role, i have some smart players that understand to fill the space as you can see from the screenshot. talking about Fullbacks playing wider, you can be right and not. He changed a lot the way fullbacks play. One of the tries is with inverted wingbacks and that is actually really cool and works on this game. Only problem build-up.

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19 hours ago, Cleon said:

It's on the build up phase because the IWB's final position (or towards the end of the phase) is directly in the Mez's starting path. That's why the positions differ the later in the move you get. So when he ventures forward but the ball stays behind him or is played back to your other defenders, he holds his position and the Mez also drops deep. That's why they occupy the spaces they do and that only changes when the ball is really advanced again. Your options here would be to change the duty possibly on the IWB if its becoming a cause for concern or change the role of the Mez.

But if the rest of the time, it's working like intended then it's likely something you'll have to live with and a drawback of the system/settings you use.

You're right about this, however, it reminds me of something that's bothered me for a while about the ME. 

Simply put, players don't seem to actually... well, react. In an IRL situation, if Player A (red) moves into Player B's (blue) 'space', then Player B would try and move into another pocket of open space. In OPs example, that'd look like this (for example): 
image.png.679868692c55ff88e826996bd7090788.png

Sure, where Player A moves is ideally Player Bs starting position. But if Player A still decides to move into that area, player B should react to that instead of rigidly follow a pre-concieved direction, no? There are aces of space in front of him, why is he not moving into it? 

I realize this is a single example, but I see this issue popping up in most of my games. The main gripe I have with the ME is that it doesn't interpret and interact with space in a way that feels realistic at all, and this is such a good example to me. 

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4 minuti fa, Christopher S ha scritto:

I realize this is a single example, but I see this issue popping up in most of my games. The main gripe I have with the ME is that it doesn't interpret and interact with space in a way that feels realistic at all, and this is such a good example to me. 

mostly because it's in the description of the Inverted wingback:

Quote

If there is no team-mate ahead of him on his side of the pitch then the Inverted Wing-Back will look to support attacks in a more traditional manner. When there is, he will look to affect play in the middle of the pitch as much as possible.

There's noone on the left, why should he hug the mezzala? And mezzala has roam from position too, so he should be smart enough to change his position ffs

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IWB/IW dynamics depend a lot on available space. If the IWB is played on the flank of his preferred foot and you have overlap on then the two roles tend to converge in the same areas, which isn't ideal. Plus you have the Mezzala. On their own the IWB and Mezz are fine, I have used that many times before and they work, you just need to understand their dynamics because between the two of them they can release attacking duties on the other flank with one of those KDB passes. Now since the IW does nearly the same thing, you then have issues. What you can do is to play IWB/Mez and Winger and you should be fine.  

Its only during the buildup phase that you will see this convergence. You could just change the IWB on defend maintain your same roles problem disappears. The issue is these 3 roles converge in roughly the same areas during buildup, so you need to change a duty or a role.

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4 hours ago, Andrew Marines said:

mostly because it's in the description of the Inverted wingback:

There's noone on the left, why should he hug the mezzala? And mezzala has roam from position too, so he should be smart enough to change his position ffs

That's kinda my point. If the ME allows for the IWB to ignore his instructions, why does it never allow for the player they collide with to react? Seeing a teammate move into "your" space should prompt you to find and move into another pocket.

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2 minuti fa, Christopher S ha scritto:

That's kinda my point. If the ME allows for the IWB to ignore his instructions, why does it never allow for the player they collide with to react? Seeing a teammate move into "your" space should prompt you to find and move into another pocket.

But the root of the problem is that the game doesn't let you create some movements. The game would be more interesting if you could create movements for buildup phase, final third, transition, different routines players could choose

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16 minutes ago, Andrew Marines said:

But the root of the problem is that the game doesn't let you create some movements. The game would be more interesting if you could create movements for buildup phase, final third, transition, different routines players could choose

That's one potential solution, yes. Alternately, if the players spatial awareness and understanding was better they'd simple assess and act more intelligently. That being said, I'm not a programmer so I can't tell you how to achieve the end goal - just that I'd really like to see it happen. :)

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1 hour ago, Andrew Marines said:

But the root of the problem is that the game doesn't let you create some movements. The game would be more interesting if you could create movements for buildup phase, final third, transition, different routines players could choose

Without a doubt more can be done to improve this facet of the game.

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9 hours ago, Andrew Marines said:

Still testing it out but i don't have the same pressure that inverted on support could do. 

Correct, you won't do.... The players want to occupy the same spaces so either an IWBD or a MEZA is needed with a support duty for the opposite. Both will give you other issues though. 

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