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Return of The Tactics Bible......Maybe.....


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3 hours ago, PequenoGenio said:

Great to have you back.

The main problem for me, for every tactic that i create is to make my striker the top scorer of my team (or league)

I always seem to have this problem. I've had saves where I've got more from my CM as opposed to my SC. 

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A minor thing that is almost never spoken of ; how to play and get a result when it is that time of the year, you know the time when one of your players decide to go shaolin soccer mode and high kick the heck out another player and gets sent off on the first minute of the game ?

Basically how to park the bus with 10 man, or better yet, how to counter attack with 10 man, and reverse FM'd the AI ?

Edited by Fatkidscantjump
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Even though I do not struggle with tactics anymore this will be a mandatory reading multiple times. Your threads have helped me immensely in the past and you've made me more confident manager on the tactics screen. Will love to see if there is something huge that I'm overlooking.

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Welcome back Cleon!

 

I'd say the biggest thing I struggle with is actually seeing what's going on/wrong on the pitch e.g. I can watch a game for 45 minutes and then someone else points out "Number 20 seems to be following number 6 everywhere" and then it seems so obvious that I can't believe I missed it.

 

Like, what do you focus on when the game is happening? The ball? Players near the ball? Players further away?

 

I keep following the ball and them I've got no idea how it ended up in the back of my goal or who should have prevented it and why they didn't 🤣

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2 hours ago, ShirazS said:

Welcome back Cleon!

 

I'd say the biggest thing I struggle with is actually seeing what's going on/wrong on the pitch e.g. I can watch a game for 45 minutes and then someone else points out "Number 20 seems to be following number 6 everywhere" and then it seems so obvious that I can't believe I missed it.

 

Like, what do you focus on when the game is happening? The ball? Players near the ball? Players further away?

 

I keep following the ball and them I've got no idea how it ended up in the back of my goal or who should have prevented it and why they didn't 🤣

I think my problem is it never feels like im watching an actual game of football, and then i struggle to diagnose whats going on unless in very general terms like "Theyre good down my left side" etc

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My biggest problem is that I create a tactic that I am really happy with, it will work wonders for like 20 games and then suddenly it stops working, so then I'll make changes to it and then it will work again for like 10 matches and then I have problems again. 

I'm pretty sure I have to change my tactic like 4 times a season to stop it becoming stale! 

So I'd like to know how to keep a tactic going for a season or how to make just small changes to keep it fresh 

Edited by B3nnet7
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Struggling with the right starting mentality for each game and dealing with home and away. Is it better to change set up game to game to deal with how strong the opposition are? Mentality, higher defensive line, line of engagement. 

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Great to have you back - might just give me the motivation to start another game!

Would be helpful to have an idea on general combinations that work within tactics - for instance central midfield pairings, lone striker set ups.  I know its the sum of all parts but why do certain pairings work?  

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I am glad to see you back. I follow almost all your threads including different tactical approaches. However, you rarely discuss long ball/anti fooball playstyle in detail. I would like to see things like this. 

Edited by Kim Wong
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20 horas atrás, Fieldsy disse:

Great to have you back - might just give me the motivation to start another game!

Would be helpful to have an idea on general combinations that work within tactics - for instance central midfield pairings, lone striker set ups.  I know its the sum of all parts but why do certain pairings work?  

This reminded me of something else... How to maintain a formation but changing the playing style? There are pairings that work well together tho the system cannot be seen in isolation, but it's really easy to use a 442 or 4312 and get use of the wings to score by crossing... but how do I take on such formations and change (player roles or teams instructions) in order to score mostly by through balls? Or taking a wide system (442 or 442 wide diamond) but playing mostly though the middle?

The tactical presets are a good help on spotting on some decent roles combinations but they lack some formations really, I can only see what a decent 442 looks like for wing play our direct counter, but if I wanna adapt some short passing game it leaves me clueless as I reckon the player roles used for it would be substantially different from the already existing presets...

Or, you have a 4231 deep that work wonders, with a wide player being your most prolific scorer and the forward is used to create space, but you land in Haaland/Mbappe and want to make them the golden boot players. You don't need to do that (you just want to), but how to adapt the sysem that you already have to highlight the best from a player/position?

Edited by davidbarros2
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Another one, very similar to what's been asked already, the mid season slump.

You get to around January/ February & your team can't buy a win 

I know it'll be a shift of view by the AI managers & they'll give you more respect but watching the games ,it's very difficult to pick up on what to change

What previously worked well just doesn't seem to anymore & it feels more like my tactic falling apart rather than the AI doing anything different

Bottling & fitness aside, let's say, one thing I did pick up on was my lone striker getting more attention from the opposition defense, he's getting hounded & on a dry run. It's difficult to change what worked so  well in the first place but something must be done. But what? The team so far had supplied him well, his role had done the job & steadily found the net. The obvious answer would be to take the focus off him, but when he's not capable of supplying & the others aren't capable of scoring it's difficult.   

 

 

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I will love to have a deep explanation on how to watch games. I think it would be gamechanging for the community.

If we could spot what is happening on the pitch, then we can come here and say what is the thing we want to fix.

Or ask what are the instructions we should use to fix the thing we spot.

Edited by bosque
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6 minutes ago, bosque said:

Or ask what are the instructions we should use to fix the thing we spot.

I remember, years ago, on here there was like a medic thread on here that helped players fix what was wrong with their tactic. I'm sure it's long lost now but then, as a complete noob it was really helpful. Stuff like, can't keep possession, the solution is shorten passing, lower tempo. Just basic stuff like that but helped you think   

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41 minutes ago, bosque said:

I will love to have a deep explanation on how to watch games. I think it would be gamechanging for the community.

If we could spot what is happening on the pitch, then we can come here and say what is the thing we want to fix.

Or ask what are the instructions we should use to fix the thing we spot.

I've covered this in great depth many times before. It's not that game changing, the community still asking the same questions  :D

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hace 26 minutos, Cleon dijo:

I've covered this in great depth many times before. It's not that game changing, the community still asking the same questions  :D

:( Yes, I read those guides and they make sense when I'm reading them. But when I'm playing I struggle to understand what is going on. I think I just lack football understanding.

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5 saat önce, Johnny Ace said:

he's getting hounded & on a dry run. It's difficult to change what worked so  well in the first place but something must be done. But what? The team so far had supplied him well, his role had done the job & steadily found the net. The obvious answer would be to take the focus off him, but when he's not capable of supplying & the others aren't capable of scoring it's difficult.   

For such situations most FM players have same problems. I try to solve these things with sending another body to forward to a different area + focus play to that area for releasing pressure to somewhere else; considering that player's low scoring ability. I only send a player forward with above average off the ball & speed. It sometimes works.

I like my lone forward being marked by opponent's two defenders. It helps me to overload somewhere else with extra player. At least it looks profitable from this side.

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On 20/09/2021 at 10:13, Johnny Ace said:

Another one, very similar to what's been asked already, the mid season slump.

You get to around January/ February & your team can't buy a win 

I know it'll be a shift of view by the AI managers & they'll give you more respect but watching the games ,it's very difficult to pick up on what to change

What previously worked well just doesn't seem to anymore & it feels more like my tactic falling apart rather than the AI doing anything different

Bottling & fitness aside, let's say, one thing I did pick up on was my lone striker getting more attention from the opposition defense, he's getting hounded & on a dry run. It's difficult to change what worked so  well in the first place but something must be done. But what? The team so far had supplied him well, his role had done the job & steadily found the net. The obvious answer would be to take the focus off him, but when he's not capable of supplying & the others aren't capable of scoring it's difficult.   

 

 

The way I think about it is like this (could be wrong):

Aug-Jan: AI consider you a certain level of threat. You over perform this.

Jan-May: AI now consider you a bigger threat than before and play a tad more cautious.

All the meanwhile, your squad's attributes are exactly the same as before. Which means that there's less space to attack and suddenly your players' ability to create something out of nothing (in attack) or cover back for counter attacks (in defence) is tested. If it's not up to the level required, then it's a big brain move from the AI.

Playing a bit less gung ho seems to work for me in this instance. It may not be the swashbuckling football of before, but it steadies the ship to a more realistic finish. Think Sheffield United last season, teams figured out their unique game plan and they did not have a plan B, all the meanwhile still possessing a 2nd tier level squad.  

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On 20/09/2021 at 13:55, bosque said:

I will love to have a deep explanation on how to watch games. I think it would be gamechanging for the community.

If we could spot what is happening on the pitch, then we can come here and say what is the thing we want to fix.

Or ask what are the instructions we should use to fix the thing we spot.

Take this with a pinch of salt mate because I am no genius, but what I've learnt reading the forums and watching youtube videos, is that keeping your tactics as simple as you can to start with and only tinker and add more team instructions when you really know how they work. So many have loads of team instructions ticked to begin a game, then try to tinker mid game, but maybe doing the opposite effect and making the situation worse. These guides are so beneficial to the community. Less is more. 

A guide on each team instruction, when to use, before, during and late on. Back to basics. Understanding what your team DNA, your philosophy you want to build and bring to your team. A guide that doesn't over complicate things foe the average player like myself. 

I would like to see a guide about a low, split and high block and what each really is and how to use this in certain games. Something I do get a little lost with.  

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hace 2 horas, CalumF dijo:

Take this with a pinch of salt mate because I am no genius, but what I've learnt reading the forums and watching youtube videos, is that keeping your tactics as simple as you can to start with and only tinker and add more team instructions when you really know how they work. So many have loads of team instructions ticked to begin a game, then try to tinker mid game, but maybe doing the opposite effect and making the situation worse. These guides are so beneficial to the community. Less is more. 

A guide on each team instruction, when to use, before, during and late on. Back to basics. Understanding what your team DNA, your philosophy you want to build and bring to your team. A guide that doesn't over complicate things foe the average player like myself. 

I would like to see a guide about a low, split and high block and what each really is and how to use this in certain games. Something I do get a little lost with.  

Yes! Recently I saw a lot of recomendations about keep in it simple and started doing that. Problem is I still don't know what to change when being battered by teams with the same level.

I think it's a matter of time of keep playing, thinking, rewatching and trying things until some day, hopefully, something clicks :rolleyes:

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44 minutes ago, bosque said:

Problem is I still don't know what to change when being battered by teams with the same level.

If your team is playing from the back pause the game each time your player passes the ball to someone then ask yourself these questions:

  • does he have options to pass the ball to?
  • what type of pass would I want him to play and to who?

Do that until you loose the ball then pause immediately and ask yourself:

  • Do I have enough players back?
  • how many players does the AI have forward and are my players in the best position to deal with the threat?

If you see that you don't have enough players back then rewind and watch closely the movement of your players and try to identify why they lost the ball.

Play the game once again and watch your pressing

  • was the pressing efficient?
  • did any player step up too early to press etc.

You don't want to change anything immediately unless you see the same problem repeat itself.

Ideally you want to be watching the games in comprehensive for the first few highlights and if you're happy with the movement offensively and defensively then you can switch to key. If you're not happy, make changes then watch again before changing to key

 

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hace 6 horas, DarJ dijo:

If your team is playing from the back pause the game each time your player passes the ball to someone then ask yourself these questions:

  • does he have options to pass the ball to?
  • what type of pass would I want him to play and to who?

Do that until you loose the ball then pause immediately and ask yourself:

  • Do I have enough players back?
  • how many players does the AI have forward and are my players in the best position to deal with the threat?

If you see that you don't have enough players back then rewind and watch closely the movement of your players and try to identify why they lost the ball.

Play the game once again and watch your pressing

  • was the pressing efficient?
  • did any player step up too early to press etc.

You don't want to change anything immediately unless you see the same problem repeat itself.

Ideally you want to be watching the games in comprehensive for the first few highlights and if you're happy with the movement offensively and defensively then you can switch to key. If you're not happy, make changes then watch again before changing to key

 

Nide advice! Thanks. I saved a lot of comments like this. I will re-read them and start playing the game this way.

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@bosque

You are not alone mate! I have exactly the same struggles as you and had even given up on FM again the past few months after just getting back into it in early 2021. I wasn't going to buy FM22 but have decided I will give it another go. 

I basically have watched football my whole life but never really looked at it from a tactical perspective, purely for entertainment reasons. You would think I would be able to pick up on things along the way, but the tactical side has never really interested me, which is kinda an important aspect of being a manager on FM 😂 I love the game though despite this, so I don't want to give up on it. I really enjoy other parts of the game, like developing players, scouting, transfer market etc but I'm just not very good at tactics because I lack an understanding of what to look for if results goes wrong etc. I usually lose patience and stop playing.

@CleonWow, the legend returns! Welcome back 🤗

Basically my main problem is actually imagining how my team should play on the pitch, what should it even look like? Also, what to look for to see if it's actually working or not? Then if it's not working, how to fix it? I do have vague ideas of what style of football I enjoy though, for an example; I'm very much in the high aggressive press camp. I used to be obsessed about having as much possession % as possible but now I'm not as fussed, as long as I have general control of the game in the opponent's half. Possession % would be a bonus, but regardless of that, I want quick short exchanges, almost one touch football. Goals scored like the famous Wilshere one in his days at Arsenal. That's just my ideal style of football, but obviously I don't necessarily have to use that as a template every time, as I would imagine it would only suit the top teams in their respective leagues? Seems to me like: much shorter passing, maybe higher tempo (depending on mentality), counter press, dribble less, higher D line with higher LOE, just as a few examples of the TI's I could use. So I guess I do have some sort of idea of how I want my teams to play.

I did actually create a fairly successful 4231 partly based on that style on FM21 so I will certainly use it as a base for FM22 if I use the 4231 again. My problem with that is, I put the roles, duties + TI's and PI's together purely based on what I felt could work and luckily it did in terms of results and I mostly settled on it because of positive results. If things are going wrong in a game though then it's just guesswork on my part on how to turn things around etc, I have no idea how to fix it. I know it's a successful tactic but I would still like to understand how and why it works, you know? If I was to make a few duty or role changes to the tactic, I don't think I'd notice any difference 😅 I can watch games and have no idea how I'm winning or losing, I just always 'hope' it works, lol.

Even if I decided not to use my own tactics and go with someone else's, well I don't feel like I could tbh. I have OCD, and have this really annoying obsession where I feel I can't use anyone else's tactics, I'm not even comfortable using the in game presets as they aren't my tactics so to me it seems pointless playing the game, which is pretty funny 😅

I'm also obsessed with getting my striker to always score the most goals in my team, like @PequenoGenio mentioned on page 1. This is just a personal preference though, I love prolific strikers 😊

Edited by Gee_Simpson
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4 часа назад, Gee_Simpson сказал:

@bosque

Ты не одинок, приятель! У меня точно такие же проблемы, как и у вас, и я даже снова отказался от FM в последние несколько месяцев после того, как вернулся к нему в начале 2021 года. Я не собирался покупать FM22, но решил, что попробую еще раз.

Я в основном смотрел футбол всю свою жизнь, но никогда по-настоящему не смотрел на него с тактической точки зрения, исключительно из развлекательных соображений. Вы могли бы подумать, что я смогу разобраться в чем-то по ходу дела, но тактическая сторона меня никогда по-настоящему не интересовала, что является своего рода важным аспектом работы менеджера на FM 😂 Я люблю игру, хотя, несмотря на это, поэтому я не хочу отказываться от нее. Мне действительно нравятся другие части игры, такие как dпоиск игроков, разведка, трансферный рынок и т.д., Но я просто не очень хорош в тактике, потому что мне не хватает понимания того, что искать, если результаты пойдут не так и т.д. Обычно я теряю терпение и перестаю играть.

@КлеонВау, легенда возвращается! С возвращением 🤗

По сути, моя главная проблема заключается в том, чтобы представить, как моя команда должна играть на поле, как это должно выглядеть? Кроме того, что нужно искать, чтобы увидеть, действительно ли это работает или нет? Тогда, если это не работает, как это исправить? У меня есть смутные представления о том, какой стиль футбола мне нравится, хотя, например, я очень сильно вхожу в лагерь агрессивной прессы. Раньше я был одержим желанием иметь как можно больше % владения мячом, но теперь я не так суетлив, пока у меня есть общий контроль над игрой на половине соперника. Владение % было бы бонусом, но, несмотря на это, я хочу быстрых коротких обменов, почти в одно касание футбола. Голы, забитые, как у знаменитого Уилшера в его бытность в "Арсенале". Это просто мой идеальный стиль футбола, но, очевидно, мне не обязательно каждый раз использовать его в качестве шаблона, так как я бы предположил, что он подойдет только лучшим командам в их соответствующих лигах? Мне кажется, что: гораздо более короткая передача, возможно, более высокий темп (в зависимости от менталитета), встречный пресс, меньше дриблинга, более высокая линия D с более высоким LOE, просто как несколько примеров TI, которые я мог бы использовать. Так что, думаю, у меня есть какое-то представление о том, как я хочу, чтобы играли мои команды.

Я действительно создал довольно успешный 4231, частично основанный на этом стиле на FM21, поэтому я, безусловно, буду использовать его в качестве основы для FM22, если я снова использую 4231. Моя проблема в том, что я объединил роли, обязанности + ТИ и ИП исключительно на основе того, что, по моему мнению, могло сработать, и, к счастью, это сработало с точки зрения результатов, и я в основном остановился на этом из-за положительных результатов. Если в игре что-то идет не так, то с моей стороны это просто догадки о том, как все изменить и т. Д., Я понятия не имею, как это исправить. Я знаю, что это успешная тактика, но я все равно хотел бы понять, как и почему она работает, понимаете? Если бы я внес несколько изменений в тактику обязанностей или ролей, я не думаю, что заметил бы какую-либо разницу 😅 Я могу смотреть игры и понятия не имею, как я выигрываю или проигрываю, я просто всегда "надеюсь", что это сработает, лол.

Даже если бы я решил не использовать свою собственную тактику и пойти с кем-то другим, ну, я не чувствую, что смог бы это сделать. У меня ОКР, и у меня действительно раздражающая навязчивая идея, когда я чувствую, что не могу использовать чью-либо тактику, мне даже неудобно использовать игровые пресеты, поскольку они не являются моей тактикой, поэтому мне кажется бессмысленным играть в игру, что довольно забавно 😅

Я также одержим тем, чтобы мой нападающий всегда забивал наибольшее количество голов в моей команде, как упоминал @PequenoGenio на странице 1. Хотя это всего лишь личное предпочтение, я люблю плодовитых нападающих 😊

Hello. We are very similar in our views. Could you share your best practices?

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Just wanted to echo the sentiment, ur content is brilliant, Cleon. Even recently I was looking around for tips on 4231 as I actually barely ever played that way and stumbled upon stuff you had wrote about it and that has helped me win the premier league 3 times in a row now. Look forward to reading anything you produce in the future. 

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On 08/09/2021 at 07:10, Cleon said:
On 07/09/2021 at 20:24, toshimitzou1 said:

Maintaining a tactic as the reputation of your club and/or opposition goes up and down. Or, how to evolve a tactic after you have attained a desired playstyle but are struggling for results.

This will be one of the main themes of the series, you'll be pleased to know.

Hi. I am giving this a bash myself, I would appreciate your feedback IF you have the time, especially with any tips you can give me on how I am understanding the roles and duties and there relationship to mentality. 

This is where I am conducting the experiment:

If not no worries, I look forwards to your future input regardless.

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Quote

Hi. I am giving this a bash myself, I would appreciate your feedback IF you have the time, especially with any tips you can give me on how I am understanding the roles and duties and there relationship to mentality.

It's a really good thread. However I'm not sure the kind of feedback you are wanting from me, I don't really have much to comment. You seem to focus on stuff way differently to me, like reputation for example. You speak about this a fair bit and while what you say is true, I personally don't think it's as profound as you think. Also not sure what you mean about relationship between roles/duties and mentality? Personally, I'd rather focus on how the roles all come together to create the style of play I am wanting to create, regardless of mentality. Know what the roles do and what settings they actually have. The game tells you this. I don't think it needs to me more complex other than maybe adding support players will stay/start deeper than when on an attacking duty. But that doesn't mean they don't attack.

Also with regards to your thread I'd like to see some actual details of the opposition and what happens in a game. You've kind of touched upon it briefly but no real details or examples of the struggles in the tougher games in Europe. I like the way the thread is going though and you're doing the right kind of stuff. My only bit of feedback would be to make sure you know what a role actually offers your side. For example a quick look at the tactic you posted in the first post, I see only 1 player immediately attacking the box. The Vol's have a large distance to make up and support from midfield and your striker initially drops/starts deeper. I think in the tougher games your play is quite predictable I would hazard a guess. The central midfielders do the same thing just one from deeper areas than the others. There's not much variety imo and the whole tactic relies on the Treq and SS playing well. For what its worth I think the VOL's would be better switched around for better balance based on what I've read so far. But I'm more about giving advice based on what I see happening in a game rather than what's wrote down :)

Like I said though, I am enjoying the thread and where its going. Be interesting to see what you come up with as the thread develops. 

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@Cleon One thing I often hear is that you can make a 4-5-1 play like a 4-2-3-1 in attack or other formations that may evolve into a different formation when attacking - using roles and duties to achieve this.  I would be interested in how this translates into FM with examples and theory behind it!

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