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How to a tweak a title winning tactic to cope with other teams now viewing you as a major threat. How to move them around, draw them out and create space once they are sitting in against you.

I suppose that falls under maintaining a tactic.

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14 minutes ago, Cleon said:

So if you struggle with deciding how to play, I want to know what it is that you struggle with specifically about that. Is it that you have too many ideas in your head or maybe no ideas at all. You might be flustered with all the options you have available and so on.

actually im  trying to build a 4-4-2 to make it work and still experimenting.i really struggle to make it work,can i add my tactic and discuss my issues?or not?dont want to disaster your thread

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I struggle with accessing my squad and deciding on a play style that suits them.

I also struggle with spotting failed transaction and identifying the cause of said failed transaction.

 

 

 

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Great to see the legendary Cleon is back! 
 

Personally, I tend to struggle occasionally when trying to translate my philosophy/style (based on real teams/managers) into FM. Particularly as you mentioned in your snippet above, which roles compliment each other and which ones can be contradictory.

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Great to see you are returning to creating content!! Can't wait to see what the end result will be. 

The thing I always struggle with is prioritizing attributes outside the logical ones (tackling for defenders, passing for a playmaker etc) 

And I do mean that in a tactical way. What set will work better for a gegenpress or for tiki taka? To which attributes do I look when choosing between to similar players for a match. Especially mentals and physicals. 

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This morning I tried to read your old posts about creating tactics but the pictures are gone. I was desperate as it was exactly what I am looking for, being a beginner who does not want to use the presets. You made my day! Thank you so much to bring this back to life

Where am I struggling as a beginner interested in tactics and viewing/reading loads of material about FM tactics?

--> I struggle to define my style. How do I want to play? What do I want to do? Hmmm. I don't know. I have no idea to start building something. I read a lot of topics on this forum, watched a lot of good videos from Daljit, and there seems to be a consensus that 442 is the system to study and master when you are a beginner, as it is very flexible. Good, let's go. What kind of 442? I don't know!  Should I adapt/build it based on my team? If I start from scratch with a good side allowing me to choose how I want to play, I am even more lost. I then tend to have a tactic where I intend to be good at everything. Let's counter, cross, play some through balls. And of course my tactic is bad everywhere. 

 

--> I struggle to fix the tactic after the first draft I make. I watched a lot of "bring your tactics" videos from Daljit and it all makes perfect sense to me when someone explains how to tweak. I understand the role, duties and TIs, why we use them, how to balance them etc. I am able to imagine in my head the different movement of the players when I make the first draft of the tactic. But then during the game, nothing happens, or not in the way I wanted it to be. First of all, I struggle to spot the problem thanks to the replay. I have an attack replay, and it is not fluid, and ends up being a low chance. Where is the problem? Where should I look? When should I look? Is the problem happening during the defense to midfield transition? Is the problem happening from Midfield to attack transition? The only thing I see is that we are not fluid and are creating lame chances (cross from the line and corner, or a shot from far away). If by chance I am able to spot the problem, I then struggle to analyse the problem: is it because of the role combination which is just wrong? Is it because the player is not suited to the role? Is it because I have the wrong TIs? Is it because the opposition is managing to shut down my attacking pattern? Is it because one player is just having a bad day? So much possible causes, so I tinker a lot and in the end I just give up. 

 

--> If finally I have something which seems to give not too bad results: should I adapt to the opposition before the game, risking to break the little bit of my tactic which is working ? If yes, how? Should I adapt the mentality each game depending on the team I will face? It seems that if I am using anything else than positive or attacking, I create nothing (probably because my role/duties sucks in the first place). How do I adapt during the game depending on the score and how the opposition is playing? For example, I expected a team to be on the backfoot but instead they are attacking me and I struggle. Should I adjust mentality? TI's? Tinker with roles/duties?

Hope it helps you!

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Maintaining a tactic as the reputation of your club and/or opposition goes up and down. Or, how to evolve a tactic after you have attained a desired playstyle but are struggling for results.

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This is great news, Cleon, your guides are fantastic!

I struggle to create a tactical style based on the players I have. I really don't like the comparison tool, it takes a lot of time and I never know what to do with the results. And I don't like the tactical templates. I would love to hear advice about that.

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Awesome!

 

For me: being able to identify what is going wrong.  I tend to be one of those people that ends up thinking this is not going right, and changing so many things in desperation that it becomes a mess!

 

Can't wait for this project!

 

NOTE: what does this mean?

  • None real life example
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hace 10 horas, Cleon dijo:

What I need is for you to post below and in a few short words, explain what aspects of creating a tactic you struggle with.

I don't know what to do in a game even if I'm winning or losing.

I think I can create a balanced tactic but then when the game starts and the players move I don't know what is going well and what is going bad.

Or maybe I can see that I have problems in the defence to midfield transition but have no clue on what to change to improve it.

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Hello and welcome back (although this is not a return as such).

First things that pop out (will think of others soon):

1. How I want to play

2. How to create a tactic based on existing players

3. Player Attributes (what is important for every position and role)

4. Recruiting for the tactic I use

5. Spotting the flaws of the tactic

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13 hours ago, bere23 said:

It's been a long time to create a thread buddy,GLAD to see you again and hope to stay around :)  :) 

Cheers.

12 hours ago, mikelfc8 said:

How to a tweak a title winning tactic to cope with other teams now viewing you as a major threat. How to move them around, draw them out and create space once they are sitting in against you.

I suppose that falls under maintaining a tactic.

I've covered this in the series as I think it's a common issue people have. Especially the drawing them out/creating space parts.

12 hours ago, Stamatis said:

Great to see you writing again! :) 

Nice to see you around still Stam and going strong.

12 hours ago, bere23 said:

actually im  trying to build a 4-4-2 to make it work and still experimenting.i really struggle to make it work,can i add my tactic and discuss my issues?or not?dont want to disaster your thread

I'm just looking for specific things that people are struggling with atm. I'm sure if you create a thread though I can contribute considering I've wrote a lot about the 442 over the years.

12 hours ago, DarJ said:

I struggle with accessing my squad and deciding on a play style that suits them.

I also struggle with spotting failed transaction and identifying the cause of said failed transaction.

 

 

 

I think this is common and I'll be talking about it.

12 hours ago, herne79 said:

Judging by some comments I'd suggest a section on "how to shut up shop" when defending a lead might be of interest.

Good to see you bud :).

Good to see you still around mate. Maybe I should do a piece on 'why you shouldn't shut up shop' am I right?!! :D

12 hours ago, Fatkidscantjump said:

Now i'm not someone to throw emojis or memes around lightly, but as a long time lurker on those forums and an avid reader of your posts and blog, i'm gonna have to drop a Poggers on this thread.

Too kind sir!

11 hours ago, Fantasista10 said:

Great to see the legendary Cleon is back! 
 

Personally, I tend to struggle occasionally when trying to translate my philosophy/style (based on real teams/managers) into FM. Particularly as you mentioned in your snippet above, which roles compliment each other and which ones can be contradictory.

Imo this is probably one of the biggest factors I see people struggling with on a daily basis.

11 hours ago, Feddo said:

Great to see you are returning to creating content!! Can't wait to see what the end result will be. 

The thing I always struggle with is prioritizing attributes outside the logical ones (tackling for defenders, passing for a playmaker etc) 

And I do mean that in a tactical way. What set will work better for a gegenpress or for tiki taka? To which attributes do I look when choosing between to similar players for a match. Especially mentals and physicals. 

There's a huge piece on attributes in this series that I've done.

11 hours ago, john1 said:

Yes Cleon!!! Wondered where you went! :applause:

I'm still here!!

10 hours ago, rizaulait2 said:

This morning I tried to read your old posts about creating tactics but the pictures are gone. I was desperate as it was exactly what I am looking for, being a beginner who does not want to use the presets. You made my day! Thank you so much to bring this back to life

Where am I struggling as a beginner interested in tactics and viewing/reading loads of material about FM tactics?

--> I struggle to define my style. How do I want to play? What do I want to do? Hmmm. I don't know. I have no idea to start building something. I read a lot of topics on this forum, watched a lot of good videos from Daljit, and there seems to be a consensus that 442 is the system to study and master when you are a beginner, as it is very flexible. Good, let's go. What kind of 442? I don't know!  Should I adapt/build it based on my team? If I start from scratch with a good side allowing me to choose how I want to play, I am even more lost. I then tend to have a tactic where I intend to be good at everything. Let's counter, cross, play some through balls. And of course my tactic is bad everywhere. 

 

--> I struggle to fix the tactic after the first draft I make. I watched a lot of "bring your tactics" videos from Daljit and it all makes perfect sense to me when someone explains how to tweak. I understand the role, duties and TIs, why we use them, how to balance them etc. I am able to imagine in my head the different movement of the players when I make the first draft of the tactic. But then during the game, nothing happens, or not in the way I wanted it to be. First of all, I struggle to spot the problem thanks to the replay. I have an attack replay, and it is not fluid, and ends up being a low chance. Where is the problem? Where should I look? When should I look? Is the problem happening during the defense to midfield transition? Is the problem happening from Midfield to attack transition? The only thing I see is that we are not fluid and are creating lame chances (cross from the line and corner, or a shot from far away). If by chance I am able to spot the problem, I then struggle to analyse the problem: is it because of the role combination which is just wrong? Is it because the player is not suited to the role? Is it because I have the wrong TIs? Is it because the opposition is managing to shut down my attacking pattern? Is it because one player is just having a bad day? So much possible causes, so I tinker a lot and in the end I just give up. 

 

--> If finally I have something which seems to give not too bad results: should I adapt to the opposition before the game, risking to break the little bit of my tactic which is working ? If yes, how? Should I adapt the mentality each game depending on the team I will face? It seems that if I am using anything else than positive or attacking, I create nothing (probably because my role/duties sucks in the first place). How do I adapt during the game depending on the score and how the opposition is playing? For example, I expected a team to be on the backfoot but instead they are attacking me and I struggle. Should I adjust mentality? TI's? Tinker with roles/duties?

Hope it helps you!

Wow that's a lot of stuff. But I will talk about all those things.

Not sure I agree about the 442 being the best to start with for a novice/beginner. I think it's better to choose something that you possibly already have a little bit of knowledge on because atleast you should have a basic idea of how it functions.

10 hours ago, toshimitzou1 said:

Maintaining a tactic as the reputation of your club and/or opposition goes up and down. Or, how to evolve a tactic after you have attained a desired playstyle but are struggling for results.

This will be one of the main themes of the series, you'll be pleased to know.

10 hours ago, Tsuru said:

This is great news, Cleon, your guides are fantastic!

I struggle to create a tactical style based on the players I have. I really don't like the comparison tool, it takes a lot of time and I never know what to do with the results. And I don't like the tactical templates. I would love to hear advice about that.

This is also a part of the series.

8 hours ago, Justified said:

NIce to see  you again bud! :applause:

Would you believe that I was reading some old stuff from when we ran Susie 2 days ago and you had quite a few posts on there. All the way back in 2003-5. Me and Caleyjag were being nostalgic as we are approaching 20 years now since we changed the FM scene! Where does time go eh?!

5 hours ago, Andros said:

Awesome!

 

For me: being able to identify what is going wrong.  I tend to be one of those people that ends up thinking this is not going right, and changing so many things in desperation that it becomes a mess!

 

Can't wait for this project!

 

NOTE: what does this mean?

  • None real life example

Without giving too much away, the part you mention is about creating a tactic based on what's in your head rather than a real life match. I've included parts about creating a tactic from just an idea, creating a tactic from something you've seen in real life and creating one from the players you have available. I personally don't believe there are many other ways of creating a tactic. I honestly believe there are only 3 proper ways of doing it. There is a 4th too but that's not really a strategy. You'll understand more about what I mean when you see it.

4 hours ago, Nick_CB said:

That sounds great, even though I've been playing since 2006 I still feel like a potato to create my own style

Lots feel the same!

2 hours ago, bosque said:

I don't know what to do in a game even if I'm winning or losing.

I think I can create a balanced tactic but then when the game starts and the players move I don't know what is going well and what is going bad.

Or maybe I can see that I have problems in the defence to midfield transition but have no clue on what to change to improve it.

I can understand this. It can also be a lot to take in when you're looking at everything. My advice short-term until this project is posted is just focus on one role for now and understand what it's supposed to do vs what it's currently doing. Have a look at the settings the role comes with and see if the player is doing these things.

2 hours ago, st.cronin said:

My biggest, most consistent struggle is figuring out what striker roles to use. I feel like I'm just guessing until I find something that clicks.

The way I approach tactics, the striker role choses itself based on what the players behind the striker are doing. The type of service, support and what not all determine the striker role for me. If I'm having people cross into the box then I know the striker has to be someone who stays in the box. So automatically that rules a lot of roles out like F9, DLF and so on. Because if I use those roles they all focus on play outside of the box and dropping deep. Now that's not to say they'll never be in the box but it makes more sense to use someone who can utilise the crosses more consistent by being a threat in the box constantly rather than occasionally. 

35 minutes ago, Bigshow1 said:

The messiah returns! Hope you’re doing good mate and look forward to any new contributions you make 👍

Good thanks mate. I hope you're doing well and still doing the running!

17 minutes ago, vkastanas said:

Hello and welcome back (although this is not a return as such).

First things that pop out (will think of others soon):

1. How I want to play

2. How to create a tactic based on existing players

3. Player Attributes (what is important for every position and role)

4. Recruiting for the tactic I use

5. Spotting the flaws of the tactic

This is exactly what this project is.

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Hello Cleon, I missed all your articles, I had so much success in previous fm's becau2of your help from posts and articles. I was an avid reader of tea and busquets. I became a decent coach and doing well because of your articles, but my weak point is to adapt, not really interested in a specific style of play. I struggle a lot to create a system that deals with stronger team and my team being an underdog. Especially never use lower mentality, lower than positive. Thanks you're back

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I follow Daljit / Guido etc very closely but I still struggle with 'reading' the match.

 

Perhaps a section on how you watch the games to see what and where to tweak. When I watch people like Daljit play, or some of the great posts on here - they can directly link a specific tweak to a consequence in the game. Some are more obvious than others - player rating super low - likely being exposed/forced into mistakes.

But I'm sure like many others - I often end games shouting 'I KNEW THAT WOULD HAPPEN' when I get 'FM'd' and their 15 year old striker bundles in a 97th minute winner as their only shot in the game. What I don't know is how to understand what mistakes I made and what I should have done in hindsight.

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56 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Maybe I should do a piece on 'why you shouldn't shut up shop' am I right?!! :D

Bingo! Not sure I've ever shut up shop :D.

tbf there probably is some mileage in demonstrating more defensive passive ways of playing vs more aggressive ways.  Generally speaking (always dangerous) I think a broader spectrum of users find it easier to set up effective aggressive systems than more passive ones.  Your "School of the Defensive Arts" might be a good one to revisit/update?

btw if you'd like a hand with anything or bounce ideas around let me know :thup:.

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7 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Bingo! Not sure I've ever shut up shop :D.

tbf there probably is some mileage in demonstrating more defensive passive ways of playing vs more aggressive ways.  Generally speaking (always dangerous) I think a broader spectrum of users find it easier to set up effective aggressive systems than more passive ones.  Your "School of the Defensive Arts" might be a good one to revisit/update?

btw if you'd like a hand with anything or bounce ideas around let me know :thup:.

Che8ers, I will hold you to that!

The School of Defensive Arts will be an updated part of the series, it's currently under playing styles. I didn't want to focus on every type of playing style as its very subjective so what I've done is make it more generalised rather than specific. That way the user can form his own opinion of how defensive/attacking they want to be based on the basics I talk about. Also included counter attacking, attacking and a more balanced approach. I cover almost everything in those 4 parts I believe without being too specific and it becoming niche to just a few people.

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Sutton United would never have won the Champions League without your articles back in the day, so thank you in advance Cleon.

 

Personally, I've always struggled to define what's a problem with my tactic versus what's a weakness with the players playing it.

 

Eg - my DM doesn't close down the opponent's AMC, who then plays a through ball assist. Is it the role? Is it a lack of cover behind him so he's trying to mark someone instead? Is it his positioning stats? His aggression? His decisions? Heck, is it even his acceleration and he was actually running towards the AMC, but I've forgotten I'm playing my 3rd choice 35 year old?

 

And while obviously you can't answer specifics like the above in one article, anything like a checklist, or system, or what one 'should' look for when reviewing a replay would be incredibly useful.

 

Also, I rarely go anywhere near the analysis tools because I just don't understand them. Maybe I'm missing something great. But if there was an article that explained the most useful parts of that, it would be incredibly welcome.

 

And finally, perhaps a squad building article? I'm sure many FM players (and I've certainly been guilty of this myself in the past) overly stock up on random wonderkids, and during preseason suddenly with tons of players on our books have to work out who to keep, who's going to get gametime, who needs to be loaned out...

Anything resembling a system for this would be very useful.

 

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Hi Cleon,

so happy to see you post again, I am very excited!

17 hours ago, Cleon said:

What I need is for you to post below and in a few short words, explain what aspects of creating a tactic you struggle with. That way I can make sure its comprehensive and represents every single aspect I can think of, if I haven't already.

If it is not too boring could you please write about possession football in the context of newer FMs and maybe revisit the possession style stuff that you made a few years ago?
I just thought it would be a good idea to update it as there is no team shape now and more importantly the "be more expressive" and the "roam from position" team instructions are now merged. Also there were some changes to the roles in these later editions I think.

I know the principles are the same and the groundwork you laid down is still there but I feel like a lot of people still struggle to create this style of football and it would be so popular and really eye-opening, also I am just very curious how you would set up a system now that we have new roles and more control in terms of team instructions.

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Hi Cleon,

Glad your back posting  :)

The thing I seem to struggle with is how to find balance and stability within a tactic, with also identifying why tactics are inconsistent or unbalanced and how to fix it.

Also, as someone else mentioned, how do you tweak a tactic for different opposition without breaking it. So I guess what would be sensible tweaks for playing teams better than you or teams of lesser ability, especially the latter I never get this right and end up dominating possession without threatening to much and getting done by a single long-shot or simple ball over the top.

 

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Amazing news! Even now revisiting some old threads I realize everytime I learn something new!

I don't know if this qualifies but my biggest struggle is fixing what is wrong. I can analyse the stats and the match and see what is wrong but have few (or none...) clues for fixing it.

In some threads you spoted a problem and have sometimes 3 possible solutions that sounds logical but it's difficult to have that insight when it comes to solve it by myself.

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Welcome back, I've enjoyed many of your previous articles and look forward to future ones.

I think something that articulates how different players make whatever system is used work differently based on their attributes and ppm's would be good. 

As an example Sir Ferguson, Arsene Wenger & Pep Guardiola (early barca) all had very similar setups that played differently due to the players they had.  They all had  1-1 front two, two wide attackers, two central midfielders, two attacking fullbacks and two central defenders.

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A couple of the guys have pretty much already covered what I was going to ask, but yeah, I can walk into a game, on a great run, 100% confident in my tactic, odds on favorites to win. 15 minutes into the game & I'm getting battered. I really struggle to understand what's gone wrong at times. Some things are blatantly obvious in the match (balls over the top, my more adventurous side is being exploited, a key player being man marking etc) but others I'm totally stunted. The opposition just seem to one touch pass the ball around the pitch & I end up making them look like Brazil  

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*** Yeeeees!!!! ***

I have my tactics that I keep modifying so as not to get bored, but I feel that they no longer motivate me. However, I have a lot of difficulty in creating a tactic for the players I already have in my squad. How to analyse the players as a whole using the tools provided by the game, without getting overwhelmed. I feel like the information is there, but I can't put the pieces together. 

Thank you very much and I was looking forward to your return, as I got into this FM thing just when you put it on hold. 

Edited by Darien
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I think a football "philosophy" section would be useful, providing definitions of the different styles of football which are possible to create in FM would be useful.

I often see some threads where a person will explain they want to play a quick, one touch, possession counter attack style of football. I'm exaggerating here but you know what I mean where sometimes different styles of football which are at odds with one another are cited as inspiration but are unlikely to all work together at the same time, in one specific tactic.

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Cleon, great to see you back. This bible sounds brilliant.
 

By way of contribution, I’d say my biggest challenge is always how to tweak or adapt my tactic to counter the opposition’s main threats game to game. For the most part, I stubbornly play my own system my way and that seems to work the majority of the time, but occasionally when up against a top team, you might want to change things to nullify their strengths and take advantage of their weaknesses.

Where i struggle is “how” to identify those strengths and weaknesses, and then what changes to make that will help. I’m not looking for a line by line explanation of what to do in each scenario, but a basic process to go through might be really helpful.

Good luck with it all, and thanks in advance for what sounds like another great piece of work!

FMA

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On 08/09/2021 at 07:10, Cleon said:

Would you believe that I was reading some old stuff from when we ran Susie 2 days ago and you had quite a few posts on there. All the way back in 2003-5. Me and Caleyjag were being nostalgic as we are approaching 20 years now since we changed the FM scene! Where does time go eh?!

Haha yes I have been around for waaaaay too long :D I can even remember the old CM forum layout and the endless conversations about wib/wob and trying to perfect the "Arrowhead" attacking trident. Here's to another 20 years :brock:

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I haven't played as much FM21 as earlier editions, nevertheless, I struggle with knowing if my problems lie with my players or with my tactic. I also think I put too much importance on my formation and don't understand/ignore certain instructions. 

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Glad to see you back, can't wait to read again from you! The "art of ... " series was my favourite content on this sub.

One thing I would love to see is an explanation of stats "interpretation", I would love to have a rough idea of what the stats of a player might mean in context.
Every year in may/june I try to review contracts and decide who to sell/replace and having an 'objective' review of player performance in the context of the tactic would be great but I don't feel confident in my assessments.

Another thing is how to maximize performance for a specific player, examples of tactics instructions/role combination to maximize the performance of a goalscoring CF, the assists from a trequartista etc.

Lastly, squad building in the long term WITH the u23/u18 in mind. Would love to know how many players to keep in each squad, and how to create a natural progression from u15 (bought or not) to first team
 

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On 07/09/2021 at 11:41, Cleon said:

So if you struggle with deciding how to play, I want to know what it is that you struggle with specifically about that.

One of my struggles is towards the end of tactics creation as you are fine tuning it for your specific players. My issue I'd like more information on is the impact of PPMs on the tactic and how to incorporate or make changes based on this.

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First, thanks so much for doing this!

On 08/09/2021 at 00:17, herne79 said:

Bingo! Not sure I've ever shut up shop :D.

tbf there probably is some mileage in demonstrating more defensive passive ways of playing vs more aggressive ways. 

Yes, this.  I get the "don't shut up shop" idea but there are frequent situations where we need to adapt and it would be great to address when/how to make adjustments for:

  • we're winning by 1 after 80 minutes and the other team goes more attacking; and our players are tired
    • yes, it creates great counter-attacking opportunities, but the marginal utility of scoring one more is much lower than the marginal utility of allowing one more
  • we're trailing by 1 after 80
  • we're playing a far superior team; and maybe just want a draw
    • for example, I tend to lower pressing, and maybe tackling, against teams, or maybe just individual players, who have much higher acc/agi/flair/dribbling, but I'm not confident in that approach
  • would a "more passive" or "more aggressive plus lower block" type adjustment work better if we trained it?
Edited by glengarry224
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Cleon! Firstly, welcome back, great to have you back - definitely been a void in the FM community! 
 

One thing I would say I struggled with, but slowly working out, is how much to tweak tactic depending especially when you are playing stronger opposition. A change of formation or a change of roles (and PI)? 

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Hello again, Cleon.

I struggle the most to get the right players for my tactics. I manage to buy some that I think are good, but then they are not performing well. The tactics works when I try to holiday through the season with different team. I am not convinced I am good at creating tactics but I can grind some results with them so I assume I manage to get wrong players for my team. I guess it depends on the actual players that I am able to scout and recruit (I play with underdogs 90% of the time, so I can't chose much).
I would be interested in some scouting tips, how to identify correct players and how to speed up the scouting/recruitment process. Most of the time I feel as I am stuck in scouting reports more than actually playing the game. I usually get fed up with it and quit.

I would also like to understand which tactical style should I chose when starting in a club and when I should try to change it to other. I usually start at standard, tweak things I don't like and then mostly adjust the roles and duties according to opposition to counter dangerous wingers, exploit exposed wings, etc.

These are probably things you already have included, as I have already read it few times, but I never get a good grip on them.

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