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My Bielsa disciple thread: Juan Pablo Vojvoda at Fortaleza


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Yesterday after my OP earlier in the week on my Vojvoda at Fortaleza thread I proceeded to put up two hours of analysis and then inexplicably pressed the hide topic button which just made the whole thread vanish. I messaged asking if it could be reinstated either by myself or a mod but haven't heard back so I guess this will be the thread now and I intend to put it all back up again with the updates in the next few hours.

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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So Juan Pablo Vojvoda a coach who has done some very impressive things with some unimpressive clubs. A 56% win rate with Defensa y Justicia in the Argentinian Primera, taking unfancied Unión La Calera to second place in the Chilean league and qualifying them for their first ever Copa Libertadoes and most recently taking Fortaleza a team who only avoided relegation on goal difference last season to third place in the current standings.

I'm sure many people claim to be a Bielsa disciple but in this instance Vojvoda has actually trained under both Bielsa and Tata Martino and they are both a huge influence in how he plays the game. Vojvoda is a big advocate of a role that is increasingly becomming more and more popular, the CB/FB hybrid, essentially a player who takes his place in a back three in defence but can attack as a wingback, come narrow as a central. midfielder or stay very wide filling that widest half space. Impossible to do on FM? Well I have managed to get it working  as close to the real thing as the m.e. allows.

The core principles in how Vojvoda want's his team to play are and what I am aiming to replicate are:

  • A back three that utilises the hybrid CB/FB role
  • We play out from the back with the two centre backs splitting, the hybrid CB taking up a wide position and the deepest midfielder coming deep.
  • The deepest midfielder must be press resistant.
  • The Central midfield is staggered, with one deep player and one more advanced player.
  • An attacking shape that overloads the opposition defence with as many as five attackers overloading the opposition back line.
  • A high defensive line and intense press aiming to win the ball back as high and quickly as possible.
  • Short passing and intricate link-up play between the attackers to play through the opposition’s midfield and break down a stubborn low-block. 
  • Counter attacking when the oppurtunity allows, utilizing one and two touch passing with intelligent movement to create space for the forwards to operate in.
  • On defense we aim to strangle the centre of the pitch. CB's are not afraid to step up out of the line and press opposition players or take risks in intercepting passes.
  • A dynamic, almost total foorball like approach to attacking and defending with players comfortable in most areas of the pitch and carrying out most roles.

So that is what we are looking to achieve with this system in our Real Zaragoza save. There are a few added points that I need to make.

  1. This isn't gegenpress FM 21 style, this is a series of tempo changing high movement attacking plays based on what we have in front of us that aims to unsettle and move the opposition defense around. We are utilitizing a patient build up when required and also able to change the tempo in an instant to play intricate one touch passes that plays through the lines as well as making a defence splitting pass from deep.
  2. This system requires a blend of intelligence, work ethic and technical ability to work. We just can't afford to carry players.
  3. Playing out from the back isn't always a pre-requisite, when the opportunity allows the GK will happily initiate counter attacks via long throws or long range passes.
  4. This is a high risk reward strategy and boy does it look risky at times, there is an implicit trust in the players that they wont panic and wont do stupid things that would lead to turnovers and dangerous counterattacks.

 

A visualization of some of Fortalezas play:

You can see  in these two pics how Fortaleza play out from the back with their hybrid CB retaining the width and the deeper midfielder providing a passing option.

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Here are acouple of examples of the dynaism on the right side of the pitch. in the first picture we see the Hybrid CB operating as a Fullback and the RWB moving in to the center of the pitch to aid in overloading the opposition defense.

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In the next picture the hybrid CB moves in to the centre of the pitch creating a midfield triangle and the RWB is providing the width so the position requires a lot of tactical intelligence and a very good understanding with the players around him.

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So this is all what I am aiming to achieve and if you guys are interested in whether I can pull this off please read the updates over the next few days. 

 

 

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To begin with I am not posting the tactical formation just yet, I will do at a later stage.  I find that releasing it distracts from focusing on how the system plays and how we can emulate Vojvodas ideals. I want to focus initially on how it plays, and the dynamic interplay between the players that I see every game. 

Bear in mind that this is the first season on a new save and  because I'm at a club in deep debt I am probably 4/5 first team players away from an ideal 11.  The players I do have however all have the ability to carry out what I want, some just aren't at the ideal level I want for this to work completely.

Also bear in mind when we started this, tactical familiarity wasn't 100%, team cohesion is no more than average and because I'm a nobody I'm in a constant battle to keep morale up because my players are crestfallen they have to put up with my ****.

Anyway, attached are some stats from the start of our season so far.

So far just the 3 goals scored against us, two from direct freekicks right at my keeper that literally went through his hands and in.

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I don't put much weight at all in XG but it's still good to see.

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Dominating possesionand passing stats

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One of the highest cross completions but with decidedly more crosses per game than all the other teams.

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The lowest XGA in the league despite having played one more game.

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Just 18 shots allowed in all 7 matches, two of the games against promotion rivals

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One of the most satisying stats for me is being 2nd in tackles won percentage, it means our pressing has that much more of an added advantage,

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The only real negative in all the numbers so far is this, the shots on target %. This will require analysing but my initial suspicion based on what I have seen are that it's personell based rather than a system based issue. Of the four attacking players who regularly get on the end of chances, one is 17 and although a great prospect possibly not ready just yet and the other one has issues with his finishing attributes.

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And yes, a quick glance at my 17 year old prospect reveals that despite his 4 goals in 6 games he is largely responsible for our SOT % malaise.

image.png.308c13499066bc0b0996b8a8f71ff0fc.png

 

 

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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Wonder which roles/duties used. I am very curious... I thought for the hybrid CB/FB, maybe an IWB/De with the ppm run with the ball on the right/left and goes forward but im prudent 🤔...And having so much possession and yet playing vertically with so much players in the box :eek:...I didnt know this coach but it look familiar with Sampaoli ( another Bielsa disciple).

 

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5 hours ago, coach vahid said:

Wonder which roles/duties used. I am very curious... I thought for the hybrid CB/FB, maybe an IWB/De with the ppm run with the ball on the right/left and goes forward but im prudent 🤔...And having so much possession and yet playing vertically with so much players in the box :eek:...I didnt know this coach but it look familiar with Sampaoli ( another Bielsa disciple).

 

He is exactly in that role yes. No PPMs and no player instructions however. The movement is achieved with the other roles and team instructions.

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I wanted to highlight a couple of passages of play from my latest match to show how we overwhelm the opposition in both the offensive and defensive phase and the dynamism between the players in their thinking and positioning.

Straight from the kick off we have our first chance. After a bit of a slower more patient build up the ball makes it to Lopez. Lopez then switches the ball wide to our "forgotten man" lWB role as I like to call it and will cover later in a bit more depth. He's certainly not forgotten by our team but you will see that the opposition frequently forget he is there.

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Chavarria wasn't the starter at the beggining of the season but I found Nieto's decision making in the attacking phase to be so poor that I gave Chavarria the start and he has made it his own.  Now Chavarria is in acres of space and their number 17 didn't track his run at all. Chavarria's decision making here is again excellent, the opposition number two has to close him down and Chavarria let's him do that to a point.

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As soon as the oppsition number 2 is out of the box and stuck in no mans land Chavarria crosses and there is a 4 vs 4 in the box with Cucho somewhat open. The ball makes it to Cucho but unfortunately he is 5ft9 with very average jumping and heading ability which is again an area I want to improve in.

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I always like to analyse both sides in any phase and this is what I am looking at in the big picture from Cuchos narrowly missed header.  A massive space completely unoccupied by the opposition, five of their players around their box in no mans land offering nothing in either defence or attack and Vigaray is in a midfield position where he can either attack the flank or move back in to the defnsive line. If they had cleared the ball from there the odds are we win the ball back staright away.

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The only area that I can see that would be an issue is the area I marked with the eliptical shape below. If the ball makes its way in there then their number 17 has space to work in. But having watched a lot of minutes in testing and in this save I know two scenarios are most likely if that were to happen.

  1. Clemente closes him down, Vigaray moves back in to the defensive line Frances shifts to the left and Ros moves back to form a back three.(I'll show you later how often Ros does that.)
  2. Ros closes him down and Vigaray simply moves back in to the defensive line.

So in this opening attack we are not only dominating the attacking narrative we are also dominating the defenisve one too, we are essentially strangling them and denying them a chance to break away and score a cheap goal. Our defence already starts during our attacking phase whilst still overloading the oppositions back line.

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The next sequence we see Clemente the CB recieves the ball and decides to actually attack with it, something I have seen the CB does this on more than one occasion and will cover later. Chavarria the LWB moves narrow now forming a back two. Ros the deepest midfielder hass moved left to provide a passing outlet for Clemente and Vigaray has moved forward and narrower taking up a DM spot.

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Clemente loses the ball but James and Azon are instantly counter pressing.

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Vilaba passes to Babin but in a flash James is on to him and rather than risk turning it over on the edge of his box he clears it.

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The ball lands at Chavarrias feet and again we start attacking them. The relentless pressing, overloading(in the defensive phase too which I will show later) and pace of the attacks overwhelms the opposition team who rarely have a chance to reset defensively.

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In this segment we have a defensive situation which I see often and is part of the brilliant dynamic teamwork I wanted.

  • The Hybrid has obviously stepped out the defensive line, this was initially to press one of their attackers which is why the ball made it backwards.
  • Cucho is pressing the ball carrier.
  • Chavarria has moved narrow and has now formed a back three with the two CB's
  • Note that both their fullbacks are being marked

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Their player who is being pressed decides to try and chip it over the top which lands to an off-sides Campuzano.

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Now the whistle hasn't blown yet so Frances still presses Campuzano wide but he's leaving a gap which Vigary the hybrid recognises and he has pace which he utilises

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and in an instant when Campuzano turns to look for options Vigary is back in the space vacated by Frances and Chavarria mainting that back three all the way through the phase. It's elemnts like this that make me very happy, we essentially have five players that will regularly interchange to keep our three at the back in defensive phases.

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Half time!! Here's why I don't put much stock in XG, it would be wrong to say we had many good chances because in reality we had one. But the goal we scored for me was that one great chance and yet the chance wasn't listed as a CCC, wasnt listed as a half chance and had an XG of 0.13. We got one good chance and we took it, now the opposition are going to have to come out to play a bit more and open themselves up a bit so I am not changing anything.

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The second half Sporting did come out to play, they switched from a 4-4-1-1 to a regular 4-4-2 and they started pressing our players a lot more. This however resulted in a few good chances for us including one that was easier to score than miss but miss we did. There are certainly some issues in attack as I highlighted earlier. The decsion making isn't always the best, we don't have height and we could do with some better more lethal finishers.

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More later on!!!!

 

 

 

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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Tempo Changes

As laid in my OP Fortaleza are happy to build up patiently and in an instant take it up a few gears with slick intricate one touch play and fluid movement. 

I don't think any clip better represents that than in our match from Castellon. From tackling their player and passing the ball back to our GK to shot on goal is a 20 pass sequence that starts incredibly patiently with a 17 pass sequence and in an instant switches to a 3 one touch passing sequence that fully deserved a goal. Unfortunately I am stuck with players like Gamez that has an 8 for finishing and with a bit more pace and some better finishing would see this ending in a goal. The one other point to make here is you will see in a lot of clips I post that James or or players in that position will use that one touch pass a lot. They are literally always moving looking for space and just connecting players keeping the ball moving.

Here is a still of what I am looking at just before the three pass sequence begins. That tight triangle on our right sided overload is crucial to this but I also am concerned and think part of our forward problems are my fault. If you look at our number 14 he is way too deep for my liking here, he needs to be far higher up and occupying that huge space. There is an argument to be made that if you create a right sided overload one of your best finishing forwards needs to be occupying the space that it creates for you, if our number 17 is in that space we might not even get that sequence because James has another one touch passing option in to that space for our forward to run on to so I will be addressing that right away.

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BTW I have absolutely zero idea how fans land up seated in the middle of the pitch in these highlights. Maybe it's like some Spanish 2nd Division version of a chefs table in restaurants. :D

In our last game which was against Almeria you can see again how slickly we pass through the lines this time scoring the goal.

In the very same game the Hybrid gets the header from their kickoff and from here we counter at pace with five men attacking against their five defenders and our winger with the angled through ball.

In this clip we have an example of our keeper deciding he has spotted an opportunity and although the keepers mostly play out short from the box they will(much like Vojvoda likes his GKs to play) take the long kick if there is a chance. So this is  a situation where the team eschews that slow patient build out play from the back and rapidly attacks, this is literally goalie to winger to false9 with another shanked shot from another unsuited player I inherited.

My final clip(I could be here all day to be honest) is some delightful play with movement that opens space and then taking advantage of the space and just a delightful one touch pass to make sure the defenders can't rectify their error.

The Hybrid is in possession of the ball out of shot , our three attackers on the rights  are relatively well picked up.

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 Cucho drops deeper taking their number 12 with him, Gamez already starts to shuffle wider here to make some space  but when he receives the pass he moves even wider, taking his marker with. Now number 12 decides he needs to close the ball carrier down , so the players have removed two of the defenders from the equation.

Gamez now one touch passes it to Cucho and straight away loops around in to that channel that has been created. 

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Cucho passes it to James who now spots the opportunity and before the defenders can get back on to Gamez one touch passes it through for the goal.

Pass3.png.187bdff0f42f62bab94d9d9c91ef3ffc.png

 

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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21 hours ago, Cleon said:

Brilliant thread :cool:

That means a lot, for a long time I was in the wilderness with the tactical side of FM and it was you and your incredible amount of work that literally made it all clicked in to place one day, so all that effort you put in helped hundreds of us.

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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Thanks so much for all the very positive comments and upvotes. My wife is dealing with some serious effects of Long Covid so I will be updating this at some point soon when she starts to recover.

Cheers!!!

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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1 hour ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Thanks so much for all the very positive comments and upvotes. My wife is dealing with some serious effects of Long Covid so I will be updating this at some point soon when she starts to recover.

Cheers!!!

Stay safe the pair of you 

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No offense, but this feels like one of these self-righteous threads, where a lot of interesting stuff is laid out, but the op feels too entitled or whatever, to actually share, how to eventually achieve this stuff in the game. I was trying to get the hybrid CB/FB to work since FM19 (Peter Bosz 3-6-1 was when I first noticed this), and just recently found peace with the IWB/D. But instead of showing people how to get this working in the game themself, you basically are talking about how great you achieved it and when somebody asks about how you say it's your roles, without actually showing how to build these combinations. Maybe post these self-serving and in no way educational posts somewhere else. Of course Cleon likes it, he perfected this behavior of talking down to people for years.

Edited by Gdansk
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7 hours ago, Gdansk said:

No offense, but this feels like one of these self-righteous threads, where a lot of interesting stuff is laid out, but the op feels too entitled or whatever, to actually share, how to eventually achieve this stuff in the game. I was trying to get the hybrid CB/FB to work since FM19 (Peter Bosz 3-6-1 was when I first noticed this), and just recently found peace with the IWB/D. But instead of showing people how to get this working in the game themself, you basically are talking about how great you achieved it and when somebody asks about how you say it's your roles, without actually showing how to build these combinations.

Exactly. This is the tactics forum, and we're seeing everything but the tactics screen. Multiple posts, over a dozen screenshots, and still nothing concrete that we can discuss.

I had a 3-3-3-1 (3 CD, 2 WB, 1DM, AML, AMR, AMC, ST) in FM20 which looked great in screenshots but played terribly. We couldn't help but concede goals (a bit like real life Leeds), but the real disappointment was that we never had the ball. We couldn't pass through the middle because we didn't have enough people there, and wing players in FM20 seemed hell-bent on giving up possession as quickly as possible via a cross or earning a throw-in. I would be curious to see if these spread formations worked better in FM21.

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He starts off by stating he won't be releasing it yet and explains why. Then later down says it has to be postponed a little until his wife recovers from long covid. Just have some patience. With topics like this its best to tell the story.

There are lots to talk about tactically already though if people wanted to question the OP. There are stuff you can see in the stats that are questionable already imo and even on the screenshots. Take his goalkick positioning one that he posted, ye it illustrated what he wanted to show but it also shows 3 possible problematic things in it too.

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55 minutes ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Very curious on how Roberto Lopez gets on here with this system. In my Athletic save a couples years back, he was like my Basque Robben

 

Good stuff thus far. The formation you play sounds similar to the one in the Tuchel thread

I have noticed how you have made the connection Jean and you are right there are similarities there but with some changes. How I got Azpilicueta working in that thread and reading up on Vojvoda and how he utilises the position was exactly my starting point for this. 

So there is a double kicker in that my Zaragoza save is set up with rules exactly like how Athletic have it today. Aragon is a vast autonomous region in Spain where Aragonese is a dying language and in that vast region there are precisely two clubs. Huesca and Zaragoza and thanks to mismanagement Zaragoza are 50 mil in debt and underperforming. This is where Lopez comes in because although he has that Basque football upbringing he was born and raised in Zaragoza so the hope is that although he is only on loan at the club that we can somehow make it permanent in future. Of course the better he does the harder or more expensive that becomes.

So far:

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Edited by Crazy_Ivan
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3 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Very curious on how Roberto Lopez gets on here with this system. In my Athletic save a couples years back, he was like my Basque Robben

 

Good stuff thus far. The formation you play sounds similar to the one in the Tuchel thread

Btw I forgot to mention that I didn't take him just because he was Zaragoza born but because he ticks a lot of boxes. He has some defficiencies in his teamwork and anticipation but they are fine for the second division for now and he has room and time to iron those issues out. The only other minor issue I have is that he is the first line of counter pressing and I would like his aggression to be a good 3 points higher but everything else ticks a lot of boxes and he will be a great La Liga player in future and as a False 9 being naturally two footed is huge.

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This does certainly look interesting, something I've looked to achieve in the past with little success. 

It is however pretty hard to have any constructive discussion on a tactical discussion forum without any info on a tactic. 

the posting of team movements is interesting but without an explanation as to how you achieve any of this it does tend to come across as a bit of a "look at me" type post and doesn't offer a lot for anyone else to engage with themselves or stimulate meaningful discussion. Looking at the replies you have so far i think a lot of people are just waiting to see a screenshot of the tactic screen at least.. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Fatkidscantjump said:

The problem when you straight up deliver the whole formation + roles package right away, is that people lose sight of the most important thing, which isnt the end result (the tactic), or the in game results produced, but rather the whole thought process. What made you chose this setup, and why. 

For one trying to learn, thats what is of the most importance, as the saying goes "teach someone how to fish etc..". Personally, I enjoyed the thread very much, but I can understand why some people are impatient ; they admired the big, splendid fish you just got out the water, now they want to learn the technique so they can fish it themselves.

Unfortunately, this is thinking short term, as we all know, learning this game is a process that can last a while, even if shorter for some, a single thread, as brilliant as it is, wont turn you into Fm worlds best player.

And please remember that we are all human, you guys want to see the formation, I can understand that, but Ivan is taking the time to make a nice thread with detailed pictures and explanations while his whole family including himself is suffering from covid, and you somehow think he is "self serving" ? How about you be a decent human being, aknowledge the work done, have some patience and just some basic manners ? Rare currency on the internet, I know, but still.

And for Ivan, if you wish to appease the angry crowd of ill mannered peasants, just a suggestion, but i remember crusaderstar making a thread where he unveiled the formation line by line, a post at a time, each time explaining the thought process for selecting roles and such. I find that a good compromise, it gives food for thought and discussion while not revealing everything at once.

In any case, hope you and your family get well. This is just a game afterall.

That's a brilliant response and I thank you. Crusaderstar is one of my go to reads on tactical systems and now that you mention it it seems so obvious to me and so silly I didn't think of it at the time. My brain sometimes goes from A to B via the scenic rather than the more obvious route, but that is exactly how I will tackle this in future.

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I used to coach a ladies (fieldhockey) team. My experience was that giving the line up and positions distracted from explaining the game plan and the thought process. Players would revert to their 'I know what I have to do, so can we start warm-up'.
Even when they knew I would have a game plan worked out based on the specific strengths and weaknesses of each opponent.
However, using graphics, photos and video to discuss the game plan helped a lot as it made it easier for the players to visualize. So I am in favor of your method to visualize.

Best thing I heard during a game from the bench. One of the ladies exclaiming, hey, that's the exact situation you explained before the game! The face of the opposing coach was fun too :D

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Cheers mate, nice thread.
I'll be following this closely as a fellow Vascaíno that's trying to implement something like this in Brazil. I'm not achieving the CB/FB approach for now so i'm in between saves to try it. Later i'll be posting my approach

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Great thread and analysis, thanks for the effort that you've put into it.

FWIW - The argument that if the formation and roles etc are posted in the OP then people will then ignore the rest of the tactical discussion is fallacious IMO. I think that on the contrary, it makes a lot of the analysis and screenshots posted throughout a lot easier to digest and helps the reader understand what they are looking at if that information is available up front. 

Most people come to this sub-forum for insight into the game and tactical discussion related to FM. People will always copy stuff and treat it like a plug-and-play if they want to, but those aren't the type of people that these threads are aimed towards anyway. Just because some may try to mirror it doesn't mean that the info should be denied from the rest of us if it would enhance what is written. 

That said, people can structure their threads however they choose to, and moaning about this is and calling out posters is pretty bang out of order.

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Fantastic thread and a great insightful read Thankyou for the work. 
I’ve currently got something not too dissimilar working myself but couldn’t begin to explain it the way you have. 
I also just wanted to say to you and Cleon and tbh anyone else that inspires tactical thinking within a game including people like crusadertsar etc who I have followed over the last few years it’s that effort that you put in that helps people like me and I’d like to think any daft criticism whereby someone is just looking for the plug and play version doesn’t stop you from contributing/helping the likes of me 

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