Help with my counterattack tactic (no hoofing)

[guttea]

I started with Hertha Berlin who have pacy wingers and strikers so I decided to go with a fluid counterattack style. I made a defensive 4-4-1-1 tactic to absorb pressure and hit them on a fast counter. It performs terribly, the only goals we score are either setpieces or accidentally hoofing the ball to my striker. The problem I find is that even when my wingers go on fast runs, they usually get no support and eventually run into the opposition player, at best we get a corner out of it. I tried playing with TI, adding "pass into space", adding "be more expressive" but it doesn't help. How do I make it work?

 

 

[YAMS]

Lot's I would change here personally. 

Mentality - Countering effectively from a Cautious Mentality is difficult, your players won't be taking enough risks during the counter. Raise to at least Standard or possibly Positive Mentality. 

In Possession - Lose the shorter passing, you need to be more direct for an effective counter attack, needs to be Standard or Direct passing. The idea is to get the ball forward quickly. On a Standard or Positive Mentality you can leave the Tempo as standard, the counter attack being highlighted will be a sufficient tempo boost when required. Loose the Narrow play, for direct passing you need default width at the very least. Narrow play is more a possession based choice. I would also highlight Be More Disciplined to make you more solid as a unit. This will help you counter with the correct players/roles which I'll come on to later. 

In Transition - Lose the Counter Press & change it to Regroup. Counter Press will not help a counter attack structure. It is designed for a high pressing/pressure system with players further up the pitch. Regroup is perfect for a counter attack system. 

Out of Possession - You need to raise both your lines to at least standard. It's tempting to play deep lines I know & it feels correct but in FM you need to play standard lines at least in any tactic. You're playing two banks of four as well so you need them engaging higher than low lines. 

4-4-1-1 is a good base formation for a counter attacking tactic so no problems there. However roles wise I would make some changes...

Your two centre mids are too defensive minded. The DLPS at LCM is good but partner him with either a BWMS/B2B at RCM, for a counter tactic I'd be tempted to choose B2B here. You could also use a CMS with forward runs highlighted. This RCM is your runner who will be the 5th player in your counter attack. RM change to WS, with the runner at RCM he will occupy that side/channel so you need a WS on the RHS to hold that touchline more, a support role is suitable here for balance but if you find this role not penetrating enough you can go WA. Left winger to IWA, with the DLPS on the left he will naturally sit a little so you need that left winger slightly inverting for some channel interaction with your AMC.

Up top the AMC as AMS is probably too negative for a counter attack, especially paired with a Poacher which is a very static role. For a good counter you need movement from these two roles so I would go AMA & AFA/DLFA. You only need one playmaker for a counter tactic so no AP/Treq at AMC, they will slow play down too much.  

Defensive roles wise for a true counter attack you don't want both full backs involved, you need to leave some stability. With your left winger now inverting & the LCM as DLPS you can make your LB a FBA. This player will provide width down the LHS during the counter. The RB as a FBS is fine. 

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by YAMS

[zyfon5]

23 minutes ago, guttea said:

I started with Hertha Berlin who have pacy wingers and strikers so I decided to go with a fluid counterattack style. I made a defensive 4-4-1-1 tactic to absorb pressure and hit them on a fast counter. It performs terribly, the only goals we score are either setpieces or accidentally hoofing the ball to my striker. The problem I find is that even when my wingers go on fast runs, they usually get no support and eventually run into the opposition player, at best we get a corner out of it. I tried playing with TI, adding "pass into space", adding "be more expressive" but it doesn't help. How do I make it work?

 

 

Just to be clear: are you looking for a counterattack tactic with very little use of a long pass? Not saying that a counterattack tactic which primarily used short passing is impossible but a counterattack with very little use of a long pass will be very difficult to achieve due to a few reasons:

1) the ball is always faster than the player no matter what. So by the time when you have made 10 passes to get the ball upfield the other team has probably regained their defensive shape and ready to deal with the counter attack which negates the whole purpose of the counter attack when you could simply make a few passes to get the ball quickly upfront to exploit defensive gaps.

2) short passing reduces the distance that the ball can travel which means that you have to put more players in order to move the ball from A to B. This creates a few potential issues as you will have to push more players running forward during transitions leaving you vulnerable against any turnover in transition phase. It can be done but you need elite players to execute the tactic. And they will need to have very high mentality so that they will rush forward to support the attack during transition.

[guttea]

18 minutes ago, YAMS said:

Lot's I would change here personally. 

Mentality - Countering effectively from a Cautious Mentality is difficult, your players won't be taking enough risks during the counter. Raise to at least Standard or possibly Positive Mentality. 

In Possession - Lose the shorter passing, you need to be more direct for an effective counter attack, needs to be Standard or Direct passing. The idea is to get the ball forward quickly. On a Standard or Positive Mentality you can leave the Tempo as standard, the counter attack being highlighted will be a sufficient tempo boost when required. Loose the Narrow play, for direct passing you need default width at the very least. Narrow play is more a possession based choice. I would also highlight Be More Disciplined to make you more solid as a unit. This will help you counter with the correct players/roles which I'll come on to later. 

In Transition - Lose the Counter Press & change it to Regroup. Counter Press will not help a counter attack structure. It is designed for a high pressing/pressure system with players further up the pitch. Regroup is perfect for a counter attack system. 

Out of Possession - You need to raise both your lines to at least standard. It's tempting to play deep lines I know & it feels correct but in FM you need to play standard lines at least in any tactic. You're playing two banks of four as well so you need them engaging higher than low lines. 

4-4-1-1 is a good base formation for a counter attacking tactic so no problems there. However roles wise I would make some changes...

Your two centre mids are too defensive minded. The DLPS at LCM is good but partner him with either a BWMS/B2B at RCM, for a counter tactic I'd be tempted to choose B2B here. You could also use a CMS with forward runs highlighted. This RCM is your runner who will be the 5th player in your counter attack. RM change to WS, with the runner at RCM he will occupy that side/channel so you need a WS on the RHS to hold that touchline more, a support role is suitable here for balance but if you find this role not penetrating enough you can go WA. Left winger to IWA, with the DLPS on the left he will naturally sit a little so you need that left winger slightly inverting for some channel interaction with your AMS.

Up top the AMC as AMS is probably too negative for a counter attack, especially paired with a Poacher which is a very static role. For a good counter you need movement from these two roles so I would go AMA & AFA/DLFA. You only need one playmaker for a counter tactic so no AP/Treq at AMC, they will slow play down too much.  

Defensive roles wise for a true counter attack you don't want both full backs involved, you need to leave some stability. With your left winger now inverting & the LCM as DLPS you can make your LB a FBA. This player will provide width down the LHS during the counter. The RB as a FBS is fine. 

 

Hm, the instructions are the SI's "fluid counterattack" preset, I actually returned to it before the screenshot, the first about 7 games I played without the ones that seemed bad to me (like "narrow" and "short passing" as you say) but it didn't help. But thanks for your advice, some things like the LOE being low and needing to raise mentality I didn't know about. I guess I went too negative with my setup. I'll try it out and see how it goes.

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by guttea

[guttea]

10 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

Just to be clear: are you looking for a counterattack tactic with very little use of a long pass? Not saying that a counterattack tactic which primarily used short passing is impossible but a counterattack with very little use of a long pass will be very difficult to achieve due to a few reasons:

1) the ball is always faster than the player no matter what. So by the time when you have made 10 passes to get the ball upfield the other team has probably regained their defensive shape and ready to deal with the counter attack which negates the whole purpose of the counter attack when you could simply make a few passes to get the ball quickly upfront to exploit defensive gaps.

2) short passing reduces the distance that the ball can travel which means that you have to put more players in order to move the ball from A to B. This creates a few potential issues as you will have to push more players running forward during transitions leaving you vulnerable against any turnover in transition phase. It can be done but you need elite players to execute the tactic. And they will need to have very high mentality so that they will rush forward to support the attack during transition.

Then I am confused about the distinction between the "fluid counterattack" and "direct counterattack" styles. I thought the direct one relies on long passes and the fluid one on short passing and quick movement. If both are long passing, what's the difference then between fluid and direct then?

[zyfon5]

17 minutes ago, guttea said:

Then I am confused about the distinction between the "fluid counterattack" and "direct counterattack" styles. I thought the direct one relies on long passes and the fluid one on short passing and quick movement. If both are long passing, what's the difference then between fluid and direct then?

I also do not know what these labels means. But who cares. We are here to talk about tactics not what the labels mean. And short passing combined with quick movement can be done but definitely not with low risk mentality.

This will be my approach to a 'fluid counterattack': I will try to win the ball higher up the pitch so that long passing is not required as much coupled with players who are not afraid to make forward runs during a transition (higher risk mentality) quick, technical players will be necessary. All the attacking players will need to be able to both create and score which is where the fluidity comes in. The striker can become the winger and the winger can become the striker.

[CARRERA]

41 minutes ago, guttea said:

Then I am confused about the distinction between the "fluid counterattack" and "direct counterattack" styles. I thought the direct one relies on long passes and the fluid one on short passing and quick movement. If both are long passing, what's the difference then between fluid and direct then?

Direct passing does not equal long passing. it’s about Vertical and diagonal passing through the lines independent of it’s range. (The Range Is determined by your roles and the demand of the receiving player)

Anyway, the fluid counterattack is about the players movement (many support duties = moving as a unit). The direct counterattack is more expansive from the point of how duties are spread over the place.

but yeah, @zyfon5nailed it with he post about player vs. ball movement.

[zabyl]

I don't suggest using default tactical styles. Because those are extreme examples and they need certain quality which can not provided by every team.

I propose setting the risks with team mentality and then adjusting some of them with TIs to match the style you want to play with considering your team's stronger & weaker points.

 

If you want to play a fluid short passing counter; (thinking it might fit to your team) you can use a higher team mentality with shorter passing, narrower attacking width, counter, lower/default DL and lower LOE for quick transitions.

 

Using lower mentalities for counter styles needs more TIs to be used. On the contrary; using a higher mentality for counter styles needs less TIs to be used. I choose the second option when adapting such style to reduce complexity.

Edited September 3, 2021 by zabyl

[guttea]

31 minutes ago, zabyl said:

On the contrary; using a higher mentality for counter styles needs less TIs to be used.

didn't they fix it in the latest FMs? I remember when you had to use defensive mentality to control possession Pep's Barca-style and attacking mentality to play route one football, it was all counterintuitive. But in FM21 I just had a save with Barca on positive mentality and we still controlled possession, did short passing, no hoofing, it was all very pleasing (and unfortunately boring, won everything in the first season already, that's why the switch to Bundesliga). So if it's positive for the Barca style, then it should be defensive for counters, no?

[guttea]

1 hour ago, zyfon5 said:

I also do not know what these labels means. But who cares. We are here to talk about tactics not what the labels mean. And short passing combined with quick movement can be done but definitely not with low risk mentality.

This will be my approach to a 'fluid counterattack': I will try to win the ball higher up the pitch so that long passing is not required as much coupled with players who are not afraid to make forward runs during a transition (higher risk mentality) quick, technical players will be necessary. All the attacking players will need to be able to both create and score which is where the fluidity comes in. The striker can become the winger and the winger can become the striker.

Wait, if you win the ball high up the pitch and go on a counter, that's gegenpress. My understanding of a fluid counterattack is as @CARRERA says, coordinated quick movement and short passing from the low block. Basically everyone's absorbing pressure, staying in the defensive shape and when the ball is won the whole team (or at least the attacking component) moves together passing and interchanging to get the ball up the pitch and score. Sure, it shouldn't be easy to implement and requires good, technical players but theoretically it should be less tiring (and so better for some teams) than high-intensity gegenpress needed to win the ball in the opposition's half.

[CARRERA]

18 minutes ago, guttea said:

coordinated quick movement and short passing from the low block.

I just want to add (if it wasn’t clear anyway) that there is a difference between short passing instruction and short passing as the ball is played over a short distance.

The Team Instruction for shorter passing is restricting the range of the pass (obviously) but also it’s risk to maintain possession which often can lead to sideways and backwards passes. And that’s definitely not what you want in fast transitioning counter attacks.

so the other factor wether a pass is played short or long is a matter of passing options. In other terms are players available (close) around the ball. However, to remain the counter attack and move forward quickly, you need to make sure the ball is moving forward. Either by the player in terms of dribbling / Running or by a (direct) pass. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by CARRERA

[guttea]

9 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

I just want to add (if it wasn’t clear anyway) that there is a difference between short passing instruction and short passing as the ball is played over a short distance.

The Team Instruction for shorter passing is restricting the range of the pass (obviously) but also it’s risk to maintain possession which often can lead to sideways and backwards passes. And that’s definitely not what you want in fast transitioning counter attacks.

so the other factor wether a pass is played short or long is a matter of passing options. In other terms are players available (close) around the ball. However, to remain the counter attack and move forward quickly, you need to make sure the ball is moving forward. Either by the player in terms of dribbling / Running or by a (direct) pass. 

how does "pass into space" fit into this? is it a long ball over the top for the striker to chase or a diagonal through ball for a winger to run on or something else entirely?

[CARRERA]

17 minutes ago, guttea said:

how does "pass into space" fit into this? is it a long ball over the top for the striker to chase or a diagonal through ball for a winger to run on or something else entirely?

no it’s the matter of if the ball is being played into the feet (non-ticked) or into space (ticked) which is a riskier way of passing as it also requires the receiving player to outpace the defender. 

In FM there Is no Option for Long balls, it’s all down to the receiving players demand. I’ll give you an example:

Your CM has the ball and wants to pass to your striker as he is unmarked.

In Case 1, that striker is an AF who is lurking at the offside line. He demands a long ball (maybe even behind the defensive line into Space), as that role is heavily stretching the play.

In Case 2, that striker is a DLF(s) who Is dropping into midfield to offer a close passing option. He most likely demands a short pass thats played into his feet.

i hope that showcased how roles affect passing in footballmanager. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by CARRERA

[zabyl]

26 dakika önce, guttea said:

didn't they fix it in the latest FMs? I remember when you had to use defensive mentality to control possession Pep's Barca-style and attacking mentality to play route one football, it was all counterintuitive. But in FM21 I just had a save with Barca on positive mentality and we still controlled possession, did short passing, no hoofing, it was all very pleasing (and unfortunately boring, won everything in the first season already, that's why the switch to Bundesliga). So if it's positive for the Barca style, then it should be defensive for counters, no?

Team mentality doesn't mean the same as playing style. So positive doesn't mean control possession. You set the risks you take, you increase/decrease risks with going higher/lower mentality. Although it means more, mentality can be perceived as a risk adjustment with a simple logic.

Yes you can use lower mentalities for counter. But it can be less effective than what you expected. This is not a certainty. But this is from my game experience and it is a high possibility for me.

[YAMS]

4 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

no it’s the matter of if the ball is being played into the feet (non-ticked) or into space (ticked) which is a riskier way of passing as it also requires the receiving player to outpace the defender. 

In FM there Is no Option for Long balls, it’s all down to the receiving players demand. I’ll give you an example:

Your CM has the ball and wants to pass to your striker as he is unmarked.

In Case 1, that striker is an AF who is lurking at the offside line. He demands a long ball (maybe even behind the defensive line into his feet), as that role is heavily stretching the play.

In Case 2, that striker is a DLF(s) who Is dropping into midfield to offer a close passing option. He most likely demands a short pass thats played into his feet.

i hope that showcased how roles affect passing in footballmanager. 

Exactly this. Pass Into Space requires forward runs. You get forward runs from your role selections, mainly in forward/wide positions. An AF for example or a wide player on attack roles. But if you are playing more direct passing, counter attack & have these 'forward run' roles selecting Pass Into Space can be tactical overkill. 

[YAMS]

1 minute ago, zabyl said:

Team mentality doesn't mean the same as playing style. So positive doesn't mean control possession. You set the risks you take, you increase/decrease risks with going higher/lower mentality. Although it means more, mentality can be perceived as a risk adjustment with a simple logic.

Yes you can use lower mentalities for counter. But it can be less effective than what you expected. This is not a certainty. But this is from my game experience and it is a high possibility for me.

Yep, mentality is level of risk. If you want to have a dynamic counter attack you have to take a certain element of risk during that counter attack. You also have to have roles in the right positions to carry out the counter attack. Any tactic, no matter what the objective/style required, has to have certain different elements in place to be successful. 

[zyfon5]

56 minutes ago, guttea said:

Wait, if you win the ball high up the pitch and go on a counter, that's gegenpress. My understanding of a fluid counterattack is as @CARRERA says, coordinated quick movement and short passing from the low block. Basically everyone's absorbing pressure, staying in the defensive shape and when the ball is won the whole team (or at least the attacking component) moves together passing and interchanging to get the ball up the pitch and score. Sure, it shouldn't be easy to implement and requires good, technical players but theoretically it should be less tiring (and so better for some teams) than high-intensity gegenpress needed to win the ball in the opposition's half.

There is also something called a mid block which is in between the two styles and the mid block is what I have in mind.

Edited September 3, 2021 by zyfon5

[CARRERA]

Don’t forget though, that counter attacks are triggered specifically after winning back the ball. And have their own rules no matter of your mentality. They can be triggered high up the pitch in a gegenpressing style or from your defensive third when playing cautiously in terms of you pressing intensity and your defensive block.

The mentality and other instructions are more likely to come into play when not in a counterattacking situation.

also a higher mentality effects the forward movement of all your players, which might not be to your intend if you wanna keep numbers back.

[Bigshow1]

I play something similar but always start on a balanced mentality. I only use cautious when we’re clear underdogs.
Standard def line is fine with lower LOE. We use get stuck in and have the attacking players closing down more. Pass into space is the key when wanting to break fast from deep. I always play shorter passing with a standard tempo and up it if chasing a game

[13th Man]

I think a lot of people are saying a lot of good things, but it might be getting a bit muddled.

Real quick, here's my idea of the difference between direct and fluid counterattacking.  Direct is the old school, lump it to the target man who knocks it on for the poacher and/or wingers running in behind who then cross it.  It's two, maybe three passes and then you're in.  Fluid is a more intricate, but still vertical approach.  You need to have options to pass it long, as well as varied movement to give the player on the ball choices so they can opt for one-twos and generally quick passes.  It's often five, maybe more passes, but all quick, one to two touch stuff with varying levels of directness.

For an example of what I'd call fluid, here's an exmaple from one of my tactical breakdowns I posted earlier in my career save with Livorno - at this point in Serie B.  Full post here (but that post went into a lot of other stuff too).  Look at all the options that the players have and the fact that while most of the passes are short, the key one that gets the move going is a bit more direct.  If I had shorter passing on, I don't think I would have gotten this move.  For reference, I had it set to balanced passing and higher tempo.

Here’s a beauty of a goal on the counter against Bari from September.

Carboni (CB #28) got to the ball before Bari’s striker (7) and passed it to Bogan (RCB 8) who quickly passed to Piccinocchi (RCM 29).  Bari is playing a 5-2-3 and are quickly retreating, but their LCM moves to press Piccinocchi.

Piccinocchi launches the ball forward after one touch and [AF] Galan attacks the ball, nodding it back to [DLF] Raicevic (9), who was lurking in ‘the hole’ between Bari’s defence and midfield.

With the LCM, having been caught up trying to close down RCM Piccinocchi, and their LWB having to keep an eye on Cavion (#7, RW), Bari’s CBs are forced to make snap decisions as they will be 3v3 against Livorno’s front three. At this point, Bari’s wide forwards have already been taken out of the play.

Galan makes a run between their RCB and their CB while AMC Bruns (10) occupies the LCB.  The CB is caught between closing down Raicevic and tracking Galan.  He chooses the former.

Giving Galan the space while Raicevic has plenty of time to find Galan...

For an easy finish 1v1 with the keeper.

[herne79]

At the top of the forum are several pinned topics.  In the one marked "Tactic and Strategy Guides" is this one which will help:

The Art of Counter Attacking

It's important to understand 2 concepts - 1) What the Match Engine does when it recognises a counter attack; and 2) You can create your own pseudo-counter attacking system which goes beyond what the ME might classify as a "counter attack".

In the former, there is a certain trigger within the Match Engine that recognises when your opponents have over committed players forward, you win the ball back (usually fairly deep in your own half) and are able to quickly break forward in numbers with the ball and overwhelm the over stretched and under manned opposition defence.  At this trigger point the ME takes control of your team, ignores any tactical settings you have made and makes your team ultra-attacking for the duration of the counter.  In this scenario it's usually a good idea to use a deep formation with a passive Mentality in order to lure the opposition in to your counter attacking trap.  Therefore any tactical settings you pick are used when you are not what the ME defines as counter attacking.

In the latter, you set tactical instructions with the aim of creating your own counter attacks, regardless of what the ME might consider to be a "counter attack".  In this scenario a fairly aggressive Mentality can be useful to make best use of the default tactical instructions there - so expect fast, direct transitions.  A deep formation could again be used although a different spread of roles and duties could be useful to generate additional pace in the transitions and even alter the formation a little to place an additional player or two further upfield.  Of course if you over do it you will get into gegenpress territory.