An Idea For Arsenal (Might Be Very Bad)

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

Hi

 

Been thinking a lot about Arsenal, cant get onto the game at the moment but was thinking of a set up like this with the squad they currently have:

 

Which in possession would turn into:

 

In this set up, i would definitely look to upgrade Elneny and Chambers.

But my theory is this formation could take advantage of Arsenal's good forward minded players, whilst offering some defensive solidity in the transition with two very defensive minded players moving into central midfield in the transition phase.

Team instructions would be mostly built around a possession build up. 

But seeing as Arsenal have a lot of players with low work rate and positioning, im thinking telling them to regroup immediately in the transition to be hard to break down.

Would love to hear thoughts on this, even if you think its rubbish, but very open to ideas to make this better

 

Thanks

[Jack722]

in a 433, the wide forwards (even if they are set as wingers on an extremely wide system) will always move narrower into the halfspaces during the final third, so Pepe won't keep his width as you might expect. Also an AP will typically hunt for the ball, so if you want Odegaard a bit wider in the halfspace, it's probably better to use a mezzala.

If you want Pepe to stay wider throughout, you whould probably move him back to the midfield line, but this will give you an assymetric formation which could be dodgy in defence, but I'm not sure. It's all a balancing act really.

[YAMS]

The LHS, if a little too attacking, looks better balanced than the RHS. A IWBS in to a APS is never going to work. A MEZS with Odegaard & the IWBS or a simple FBS with Chambers & keep the APS makes more sense. 

I would change Partey to BWMD as well & make White a BPD. 

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

9 hours ago, Jack722 said:

in a 433, the wide forwards (even if they are set as wingers on an extremely wide system) will always move narrower into the halfspaces during the final third, so Pepe won't keep his width as you might expect. Also an AP will typically hunt for the ball, so if you want Odegaard a bit wider in the halfspace, it's probably better to use a mezzala.

If you want Pepe to stay wider throughout, you whould probably move him back to the midfield line, but this will give you an assymetric formation which could be dodgy in defence, but I'm not sure. It's all a balancing act really.

 

3 hours ago, YAMS said:

The LHS, if a little too attacking, looks better balanced than the RHS. A IWBS in to a APS is never going to work. A MEZS with Odegaard & the IWBS or a simple FBS with Chambers & keep the APS makes more sense. 

I would change Partey to BWMD as well & make White a BPD. 

Thanks for the contributions guys

Do you think that Odegaard could play as a roaming playmaker but drift into the channels?

What im really trying to do is create a right sided overload in the buildup to free up Auba as the main scorer and Tierney to push down the left side in support.

Could you sum up the advantages and disadvantages of RPM vs Mezzala vs Advanced Playmaker?

I tend to see RPM as a more hard working role defensively which i want. Mezzala.....i think thatll make the player dribble a lot which i dont really want

 

 

[YAMS]

If you want an overload down the right then a MEZS with a FBS/WBS would be better. You could play a CMS keeping wide as well but a MEZS does an overload far better. 

Note if you do overload the right you don't really want a marauding LB as well. Looking at Holding & Tierney you're better off overloading the left flank imo & making Holding the defensive full back. 

 

RPM - Will roam horizontal & vertical searching for the ball, very physically demanding role. Not what I would see Odegaard thriving as. 

APS - Vertical movement, far more stationary than a RPM. More Odegaard. 

MEZS - Floods a channel & will occupy this channel when you have possession. Is a hybrid centre mid/winger so plays less through balls. Not really Odegaard. 

 

You need to see what the role does and then envision that Arsenal player in that role. For example Holding; he's a defensive full back, you don't want him contributing too much in the attacking third as you won't see great results. Tierney is a natural attacking full back so immediately you want to target the LHS more with this side. This is the art of squad building, you may like a certain role & have an idea of how you would like to play but you also ideally take your current squad options in to account for your build. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by YAMS

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

3 minutes ago, YAMS said:

If you want an overload down the right then a MEZS with a FBS/WBS would be better. You could play a CMS keeping wide as well but a MEZS does an overload far better. 

Note if you do overload the right you don't really want a marauding LB as well. Looking at Holding & Tierney you're better off overloading the left flank imo & making Holding the defensive full back. 

bit confused with this as i thought overloading the right side would "release" the dangerous players on the left side with more space?

A left sided overload wouldnt release a natural scorer on the right?

I think im getting caught between two thoughts. with the RB on FBS/WBS youre asking him to be a 3rd player to join in with the overload? in which case with the current squad youre looking at Bellerin and Cedric who would get forward more.

My thoughts were that Lacazette would come deep, Odegaard would move into the right half space whilst a winger, Pepe or Saka would hold the width, commit defenders over and then Leave Auba more space in the left inside channel to score.

What about if Lacazette rather than play in the centre forward position was moved over to the right to drop deep into the right channel to join Odegaard and the winger?

 

The idea with Chambers was that as this was going on in front of him, Chambers would then come and sit in central midfield and as a defender form a screen in front of the defence with his defensive qualities if possession broke down in the transition.

 

Feel like ive got this badly wrong, can you advise?

 

Thanks

 

 

[WhyMe]

I've actually been running a similar setup (though mirrored) at Valencia with a fair bit of success.

I am looking to build up on the left and free up goal scorers down the right.  The system I am using is:

                 CF-a

AP-s                          W-a

         BWM-s    CM-A

CWB-a       HB-d      IWB-s

         CD-d       CD-d

                  SK-s

The BWM has the PI hold position so he doesn't get too far forward to provide better cover to the CWB-a and so he doesn't get in the way of the AP-s he is told to come narrow and roam, a) to free up space for the CWB to attack and b) to get into the middle of the pitch to work a through ball to the attack duty players.  I am not playing possession football specifically though I do end up with high possession numbers most of the time (POOD and mixed passing with a high line and urgent pressing most of the time).  However, it is similar enough to your idea that I know it can work (not tried the RMD-d support striker option really though).

For what you are trying to do I'd say the main things I've learnt from the above system is if you play an IWB in a 4-3-3 wide then the right sided CM must be on a different duty (mid on support and IWB on defend, mid on defend IWB on attack, mid on attack IWB on defend all work for example).

Defensively, we have been rock solid (though I do adjust the system for the opposition (mainly changes to DL and LOE, but occasionally formation (switching to 3 atb for example and putting the BWM on defend)  We have scored plenty of goals too and to give you an idea of player performance once you get the right player all the positions can be lethal (CF almost a goal a game, AP 15 goals 14 assists in 30 starts and 11 subs and the W-a 13 goals and 6 assists in 31 starts (was scoring at double that rate last season but has dropped off this (poor personality).

Anyway hope this helps or at least gives you some food for thought.

[YAMS]

You overload to isolate, yes. This is always the point of the overload to one side, to free the other side. You have the correct thinking, free space for the lhs Raumdeuter. 

For an overload you ideally want the full back involved as well, hence saying Tierney over Holding, but if you are playing Bellerin or Cedric then fair enough. 

An IWBS will work with a MEZA better than a MEZS but again I don't see Holding as a player you want in the middle of the pitch. He's a defensive full back, that's it. For an IWB to invert he needs space inside so you have to clear room by taking the player in that space away.

IWBD with a MEZS or IWBS/A with a MEZA. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by YAMS

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

33 minutes ago, WhyMe said:

I've actually been running a similar setup (though mirrored) at Valencia with a fair bit of success.

I am looking to build up on the left and free up goal scorers down the right.  The system I am using is:

                 CF-a

AP-s                          W-a

         BWM-s    CM-A

CWB-a       HB-d      IWB-s

         CD-d       CD-d

                  SK-s

The BWM has the PI hold position so he doesn't get too far forward to provide better cover to the CWB-a and so he doesn't get in the way of the AP-s he is told to come narrow and roam, a) to free up space for the CWB to attack and b) to get into the middle of the pitch to work a through ball to the attack duty players.  I am not playing possession football specifically though I do end up with high possession numbers most of the time (POOD and mixed passing with a high line and urgent pressing most of the time).  However, it is similar enough to your idea that I know it can work (not tried the RMD-d support striker option really though).

For what you are trying to do I'd say the main things I've learnt from the above system is if you play an IWB in a 4-3-3 wide then the right sided CM must be on a different duty (mid on support and IWB on defend, mid on defend IWB on attack, mid on attack IWB on defend all work for example).

Defensively, we have been rock solid (though I do adjust the system for the opposition (mainly changes to DL and LOE, but occasionally formation (switching to 3 atb for example and putting the BWM on defend)  We have scored plenty of goals too and to give you an idea of player performance once you get the right player all the positions can be lethal (CF almost a goal a game, AP 15 goals 14 assists in 30 starts and 11 subs and the W-a 13 goals and 6 assists in 31 starts (was scoring at double that rate last season but has dropped off this (poor personality).

Anyway hope this helps or at least gives you some food for thought.

Hi mate great post.

Things got interesting for me tonight when I saw Arsenal had signed this guy, and with these PPM's (from FM21):

So im thinking, if he comes and sits more into central midfleld from the right wing back position as an IWB/D.....He can sort of combine being a defensively astute defensive midfielder whilst exhibiting playmaking traits, most specifically the switch of play over to the right hand side to my "unlocked" left hand side where Auba will be attacking the space....this is if Laca, Odegaard and whoever is on the right wing can combine effectively?

 

Looking at your set up, another possible option could be Odegaard at AP/S from the wide right position, Tomiyasu or Cedric behind him on the overlap as wing backs on attack, then could potentially use a defensive minded player like Partey or Elneny in the right midfield position with a holding role to cover that side, and then use Auba as a RMD/A with Smith Rowe behind him as a MEZ or CM/A with Tierney playing as an IWB/S

So a second option could be:

Alternative Overload 2

Any thoughts?

Thanks guys

 

[YAMS]

I actually like this less... Sorry. 

Raum with a MEZA makes little sense, you need the APS on that side & the Raum on the other. HB with a CMD is also too defensive. CMS makes more sense there with that WBA & APS. 

It's almost like Arsenal's squad is in-balanced isn't it... lol. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by YAMS

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

8 minutes ago, YAMS said:

I actually like this less... Sorry. 

Raum with a MEZA makes little sense, you need the APS on that side & the Raum on the other. HB with a CMD is also too defensive. CMS makes more sense there with that WBA & APS. 

It's almost like Arsenal's squad is in-balanced isn't it... lol. 

The squad is badly hampered by the lack of a top quality central midfielder.

Xhaka can get in the bin

[YAMS]

Perhaps as you have a weak centre mid you go with two in there rather than three?

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

32 minutes ago, YAMS said:

Perhaps as you have a weak centre mid you go with two in there rather than three?

Im not sure about the balance. Im not a football manager expert by any means, but they went 3-4-3 vs Man City recently, with a central midfield pairing of Xhaka and Odegaard.

I couldnt think of any way i could utilise those two, in football manager terms, and not get absolutely battered to be honest.

Id be open to suggestion though on how to go with two in the middle.

When Partey is fit he would slot in but its a big weak area

[YAMS]

3-4-3 puts more pressure on the centre mids definitely. Perhaps a flat 4-4-1-1 would be better although thinking about Arsenal's squad there's an abundance of out and out wingers aren't there. 

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

16 minutes ago, YAMS said:

3-4-3 puts more pressure on the centre mids definitely. Perhaps a flat 4-4-1-1 would be better although thinking about Arsenal's squad there's an abundance of out and out wingers aren't there. 

Theyve got about 7 centrebacks, none of which are any good, same goes for wingers thats where they have the quality in the squad, but absolutely no spine to the team.

[YAMS]

Ok so you should always play to your strengths & protect your weaknesses. A double flank attack and holding 6's pivot midfield sounds the best in a 4-2-3-1 deep maybe. You have Smith Rowe & Odegaard who I imagine can rotate at no.10. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by YAMS

[WhyMe]

My concern with your original tactic was the lack of threat you carry if Auba has a bad game or is shutdown by the opposition.  Basically with the exception of the RMD you have no one attacking the box as a PF-s won't do that enough.

However, you do need someone up front to create space for Auba so maybe a TQ could work perfectly?  I haven't tried it but in theory at least he would roam about both laterally and vertically which would drag the defence all over the place and then Auba could dart into those spaces to score.  He would also carry a bit more of a goal threat as he is on attack duty and a TQ is meant to be a hybrid creator/scorer (at least when compared to the F9 and AP-a in the AMC slot).  It might not work but the concept sounds like it could be a lot of fun.  You would probably still need to change up your central midfield roles to ensure one of them gets forward a little more but it might not be so bad, a BBM or CM-s with get further forward could be worth a pop but its just an idea.

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

4 hours ago, WhyMe said:

My concern with your original tactic was the lack of threat you carry if Auba has a bad game or is shutdown by the opposition.  Basically with the exception of the RMD you have no one attacking the box as a PF-s won't do that enough.

However, you do need someone up front to create space for Auba so maybe a TQ could work perfectly?  I haven't tried it but in theory at least he would roam about both laterally and vertically which would drag the defence all over the place and then Auba could dart into those spaces to score.  He would also carry a bit more of a goal threat as he is on attack duty and a TQ is meant to be a hybrid creator/scorer (at least when compared to the F9 and AP-a in the AMC slot).  It might not work but the concept sounds like it could be a lot of fun.  You would probably still need to change up your central midfield roles to ensure one of them gets forward a little more but it might not be so bad, a BBM or CM-s with get further forward could be worth a pop but its just an idea.

Hi mate thanks for the feedback.

Lacazette has a PPM to "move into channels" so im thinking..... If i use him as a DLF on attack.....his DLF position will see him make the vertical movement, whilst his move into channels PPM will take care of the lateral movement.....BUT...... i can then set him to press more. I think he is a hard working player, i think id give a little bit of that up by using the TQ role?

Im also thinking if i ask him to man mark the opposition DM position, itll get him to come deeper?

Also in the central midfield positions, would you pair the RCM as a MEZ/S with the BBM or CM/S in the LCM position? might not be a bad role for Xhaka to be fair.

If using a more attack minded LCM than Carrilero, would you then move the left wing back into an inverted wing back to cover the space vacated by the more attacking LCM?

 

Thanks for the feedback

 

[alerosso]

1 ora fa, Lesterfan_Cambiasso ha scritto:

Lacazette has a PPM to "move into channels" so im thinking..... If i use him as a DLF on attack.....his DLF position will see him make the vertical movement, whilst his move into channels PPM will take care of the lateral movement

If I'm not wrong the "channels" are vertical gaps between CBs/FBs, not the horizontal spaces between the lines

Edited September 1, 2021 by alerosso

[YAMS]

Correct, channels are vertical gaps. Mez/Carrilero/IWB/IF/IW territory. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by YAMS

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

27 minutes ago, alerosso said:

If I'm not wrong the "channels" are vertical gaps between CBs/FBs, not the horizontal spaces between the lines

 

21 minutes ago, YAMS said:

Correct, channels are vertical gaps. Mez/Carrilero/IWB/IF/IW territory. 

Ok. So DLF/A with "roam from position" could be an option? i dont really want the low work rate characteristics of the Trequartista for Lacazette

[YAMS]

A DLFA will roam but not as much as a Treq. They will only roam where there is space, whether that be a channel, strata... etc.... But being an attack striker by nature you will find them working the striker 'area' obviously.