Signing Players to Act as Mentors

[Manutd1999]

Man Utd recently announced the signing of Paul McShane, who will act as a sort of on-field coach for the youth squads. Essentially he is there for his professionalism and to act as a mentor, whilst making up the numbers if needed on match-day. Lee Grant is doing something similar with the goalkeepers. I thought it sounds like a novel solution, and it gave me an idea for FM....

In previous additions, having a few older pro's with high determination and target personalities was a sure-fire way of improving youth prospects. However, it was almost too easy, and SI duly put a stop to it when they changed the mentoring. Players in the under 18/23s can now only be mentored by other under 18/23s. This might be more realisitic, but it essentially means there is no mentoring going on until the player is 18+ and ready for the first team. 

But perhaps we could also use the 'Man Utd approach' and sign a few 'model citizens' to act purely as mentors, whilst playing the odd game in the youth squads? Has anybody tried this before? Is there anythign in-game to stop you putting over-age players in the under 18 side?

[herne79]

You can always try it.  However, if you buy a senior player you have to agree game time (squad status) with him.  He's not going to be very happy if you then dump him in the U18s.

[eXistenZ]

I signed Tomori when he was like 34. For mentoring purposes I always make the ones that need it sit in the main squad wih 90min available for U18

[LHurlz]

21 minutes ago, eXistenZ said:

I signed Tomori when he was like 34. For mentoring purposes I always make the ones that need it sit in the main squad wih 90min available for U18

This can be very bad for player development though, particularly if you're a club that plays in the CL/EL/etc. Your first team trains far less than your youth team and the youth team training focuses more heavily on physical attributes which young players need to develop. 

Imo it's only worth promoting a youngster to the first team if: 

A) He is going to get a reasonable amount of game time.

B) You aren't playing in Europe and he won't miss out on too many extra training sessions.

Edited July 28, 2021 by LHurlz

[eXistenZ]

Yeah ive heard this too, but so far, development is going still just fine for my prospect.

 

The reason i do this anyway is:

 

a) If they have a poor personality, the extra training doesnt matter: they will develop less anyway

b) the real growth spurt is between 18-22 at which point playing time is more important and they are loaned out.

 

I've seen enough young players with poor personalities not growing to neglect mentoring

[smeagoltonez]

15 hours ago, Manutd1999 said:

Man Utd recently announced the signing of Paul McShane, who will act as a sort of on-field coach for the youth squads. Essentially he is there for his professionalism and to act as a mentor, whilst making up the numbers if needed on match-day. Lee Grant is doing something similar with the goalkeepers. I thought it sounds like a novel solution, and it gave me an idea for FM....

In previous additions, having a few older pro's with high determination and target personalities was a sure-fire way of improving youth prospects. However, it was almost too easy, and SI duly put a stop to it when they changed the mentoring. Players in the under 18/23s can now only be mentored by other under 18/23s. This might be more realisitic, but it essentially means there is no mentoring going on until the player is 18+ and ready for the first team. 

But perhaps we could also use the 'Man Utd approach' and sign a few 'model citizens' to act purely as mentors, whilst playing the odd game in the youth squads? Has anybody tried this before? Is there anythign in-game to stop you putting over-age players in the under 18 side?

It's great to read that about McShane as I felt a little dishonest when I did this myself in my save but reasoned that it would happen in real life. I'm pretty sure footballers at the end of their careers would happily join a more repeatable club (especially one like Man Utd) & enjoy the facilities as well as doing a bit of mentoring & coaching rather than dropping (far) further down the football pyramid. Noble at West Ham is currently doing something similar (although he's still club captain & a squad player) but Snodgrass stated that he had a similar role before being transferred to West Brom.

Anyway, I tried this out in League 2. I signed (saved) a veteran defender (Darren Ward) & agreed that he would be an emergency back-up player & then stuck him in the under 18s. We agreed a wage of £160 per week so it was a small gamble. He'd previously dropped down to the Vanarama South so I figured that this, along with his 'Professional' personality, would stop him from complaining. His World Reputation was 5 silver stars (rated 'okay') which matched the WR of my under 18 players. I'd have preferred it to be higher so that he was more influential but oh well. He had 2 stars for ability though which was joint highest in my under 18 squad so that gave him more influence. His personality was 'professional' which isn't the very best but still better than 'fairly determined' or 'balanced' which made up the personalities of most of my under 18 squad.

Upon signing on 12th July 2020 , he found himself alone in the 'others' social group & didn't appear at all on the under 18s hierarchy but I figured this would change after a settling in period. I could have made him captain of the under 18s which would have seen his influence increase at a quicker rate but I forgot & went 'on holiday'. 

After returning from my holiday on 12th June 2021, I found that Ward is still all alone in the 'others' social group but was made captain by the under 18s manager & is now at the top of the hierarchy in the position of 'team leader'. Wahoo! However, his mentoring influence on the youngsters is still 'light' & he has had no impact on the determination of those that he is mentoring despite the estimated effect being 'significant'. I think this could be because he was not in any of their social groups & many of the players now have a better World Rep than him. However, some of my other players did experience an increase in determination so Ward's presence could have helped the squad as a whole but then again this could be a coincidence.

Could I have seen better results if Ward wasn't alone in his social group? I think so yes. Perhaps I could have signed some youngsters at the same time so that he shared a social group with those he was mentoring.

Did his ability & lower WR have a negative impact? Probably, maybe a slightly better player with a higher WR would have had more influence but then they may have complained about their lack of playing time.

Would have been better if I'd given him a couple of games for the Senior Squad? Possibly, but I'm not sure whether he'd have liked being dropped back into the under 18s squad afterwards.

Would a model citizen personality have achieved more? Probably

I think the way forward in FM21 is to find youngsters with good personalities & potential & supplement them in the under 18s with multiple experienced players such as Ward & McShane to influence the overall squad personality.

Edited July 29, 2021 by smeagoltonez

[LHurlz]

2 hours ago, eXistenZ said:

Yeah ive heard this too, but so far, development is going still just fine for my prospect.

 

The reason i do this anyway is:

 

a) If they have a poor personality, the extra training doesnt matter: they will develop less anyway

b) the real growth spurt is between 18-22 at which point playing time is more important and they are loaned out.

 

I've seen enough young players with poor personalities not growing to neglect mentoring

You're right actually that's the third condition I missed. If a player has poor personality it's also worth moving them up for mentoring.

[Manutd1999]

Quote

However, if you buy a senior player you have to agree game time (squad status) with him

Like in the real-life examples, I think you would have to find an older player who was willing to accept 'backup' status. This would also lead to lower wages, which would make it more viable financially. 

Quote

For mentoring purposes I always make the ones that need it sit in the main squad wih 90min available for U18

As others have said, this results in less training and (presumably?) slower development. There are also potential issues if the U18 and first team games are on different days, as the rest and training schedule won't make sense. This is the mian reaosn for my idea of using older mentors in the U18s. 

Quote

After returning from my holiday on 12th June 2021, I found that Ward is still all alone in the 'others' social group but was made captain by the under 18s manager & is now at the top of the hierarchy in the position of 'team leader'. Wahoo! However, his mentoring influence on the youngsters is still 'light' & he has had no impact on the determination of those that he is mentoring despite the estimated effect being 'significant'. I think this could be because he was not in any of their social groups & many of the players now have a better World Rep than him. However, some of my other players did experience an increase in determination so Ward's presence could have helped the squad as a whole but then again this could be a coincidence

Interesting stuff! I will try to do something similar as a test. 

 

 

 

[Manutd1999]

Test results:
 

I setup a quick save with Man Utd and immediately went looking for suitable mentors. I was looking for:

• High determination and leadership
• 'Model citizen' personality or similar
• Very low value/reputation, so that they would accept emergency backup status. 

I settled on Jose Vunguidica and David Edwards. Both are exactly the type of mentors I want, and were signed very cheaply. Note that being at Man Utd helps a lot here, it would be more difficult to find players if you were at a smaller club.

 

I immediately put them in the U18 squad and setup mentoring groups. Encouragingly, both players immediately became team leaders and had 'significant' effect on all players within their mentor groups. I then went on holiday for a year and waited for the results.....

First up, Charlie McNeill. This is exactly the type of player who should benefit from this strategy. He is a top-quality prospect, but has very low determination and a 'balanced' personality. Below are his attributes before and after 1-year of mentoring. Determination has increased by 2 points and he has also changed personality to 'fairly loyal'. Small changes, but better than nothing.

 

Similarly, Joe Hugill. Again, he showed an increase in determination, albeit only a small one (+1).

 

Players who were not part of the mentoring did not show any improvement in determination during the period. So it does seem to be having some effect. 

The one issue seems to be the social groups. Even after 1 year, my two mentors were still not in any social group. Presumably this is because of their age/status realtive to the rest of the U18 squad. I have read that social group has a big impact on mentoring in FM, perhaps this is why the increases seen were relatively small?

If so, I don't think this aspect is particularly reflective of real-life (you don't need to be best mates with somebody to effectively mentor them), but I guess that is a SI's decision which we have to live with.....

 

So what have we learnt? Signing older players as mentors does seem to be an option which leads to some small gains for your U18 players. Perhaps over several seasons it coudl add up to make a significant difference. But at smaller/medium clubs, it's probably not worth the additional wages to be honest....

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Manutd1999

[smeagoltonez]

18 hours ago, Manutd1999 said:

Test results:
 

I setup a quick save with Man Utd and immediately went looking for suitable mentors. I was looking for:

• High determination and leadership
• 'Model citizen' personality or similar
• Very low value/reputation, so that they would accept emergency backup status. 

I settled on Jose Vunguidica and David Edwards. Both are exactly the type of mentors I want, and were signed very cheaply. Note that being at Man Utd helps a lot here, it would be more difficult to find players if you were at a smaller club.

 

I immediately put them in the U18 squad and setup mentoring groups. Encouragingly, both players immediately became team leaders and had 'significant' effect on all players within their mentor groups. I then went on holiday for a year and waited for the results.....

First up, Charlie McNeill. This is exactly the type of player who should benefit from this strategy. He is a top-quality prospect, but has very low determination and a 'balanced' personality. Below are his attributes before and after 1-year of mentoring. Determination has increased by 2 points and he has also changed personality to 'fairly loyal'. Small changes, but better than nothing.

 

Similarly, Joe Hugill. Again, he showed an increase in determination, albeit only a small one (+1).

 

Players who were not part of the mentoring did not show any improvement in determination during the period. So it does seem to be having some effect. 

The one issue seems to be the social groups. Even after 1 year, my two mentors were still not in any social group. Presumably this is because of their age/status realtive to the rest of the U18 squad. I have read that social group has a big impact on mentoring in FM, perhaps this is why the increases seen were relatively small?

If so, I don't think this aspect is particularly reflective of real-life (you don't need to be best mates with somebody to effectively mentor them), but I guess that is a SI's decision which we have to live with.....

 

So what have we learnt? Signing older players as mentors does seem to be an option which leads to some small gains for your U18 players. Perhaps over several seasons it coudl add up to make a significant difference. But at smaller/medium clubs, it's probably not worth the additional wages to be honest....

 

Nice. I reckon you'd get even better results if you added a few more experienced professionals to the U18 squad as you'd get those 'influenced by the squad' personality bonuses. This would apply to those youngsters who aren't even being mentored. Also, I've since learnt that 'welcoming' new signings is a quick & effective way to give great personality boosts to new signings (providing you have the right player to welcome them).