Should Mentality Be Removed from the Tactic Creator?

[mister.cool40]

[[ Hello everyone. I don't know if this has been proposed before . As I feel SI has been trying to going in a more organic direction this falls in line with that vision.  Also It's only my personal opinion and I could be wrong  and I don't mean SI any disrespect. Also posted this in feature request section for SI to review. I am not a native English speaker so I apologise for any potential grammar mistake ]]

For me selection of roles and duties, passing options, tempo, pressing height and intensity etc. in the current tactic creator menu should be enough to dictate what mentality I am playing with. Say, If I am playing a 433 with two overlapping wingbacks, counter press and very high DL and LOE with max pressing intensity; shouldn't it be enough to indicate that my mentality is very attacking? Even IRL if I say any team is doing these things, it would be crystal clear to anyone that this team is playing very high risk football. But in FM, you could put a very defensive mentality with these instructions; which doesn't make any sense. 

Yes you can create a very very very specific type of football with these weird mentality and TI+Roles and Duties combos. But for me this is just abusing the M.E. This is not an organic way to create a tactic and no real manager would ask his team to park the bus with overlapping fullbacks and ultra high DL.

The biggest problem is the current mentality system doesn't go hand in hand with the rest of the tactic creator. There is a lot of vagueness which only confuses the player. In very defensive mentality description it is written that, "unlike the defensive mentality it is not looking to score on the counter attack...".  Now you can play a very defensive mentality and also select the Counter TI in the transition section. What happens when you selcet both? We don't know! Now people could experiment with these two instructions together to see what happens. But I believe the majority of players don't have the patience to do these experiments with all these combos. And more importantly, the majority don't have the EYE to understand what is happening because of which instructions. I have played for nearly 5 years and sadly I am not even close to developing the EYE. Now Imagine playing very defensive would automatically prevent you from selecting counter TI. You would clearly understand what very defensive mentaliy means and how these combine with each other. Similarly the attcking mentality description reads "....by employing a fast tempo and more direct passing....." but you can employ a much shorter passing and much lower tempo in the in possession section while still having the attacking mentality.

Now I am aware that it has been said many times in the forum that mentality description doesn't mean anything and mentality just means Risk. But when you are setting your DL much higher it already means high risk. The passing risk can also be set by TIs or individual PIs. As for positional and forward movement risks, when you are selecting WB(attack) instead of no nonsense full back(defend) it already means high positional risk and more forward runs. The point is, all the risk management can be done by TIs and PIs. So, why is there need for mentality which unnecessarily complicates things? 

Now one thing mentality does usefully is that it can increase or decrease the individual mentality of the whole squad at the same time. Is this convenient ? Surely, yes. In real life too a manager might ask his team to be more attcking or defensive. But surely no real team can switch between 7 different levels of mentality. So, for me, the current mentality system is not at all organic and not a representation of real life coaching. If mentality is removed, the game can be played in an organic way. Scrapping mentality option by just simply puttin it under the hood might just increase the confusion among players and leave them with less options overall. The TIs and roles/duties/PIs might have to be properly augmented to handle the mentality all by themselves. 

 

[WizbaII]

I do understand what you are saying. When you have so many instructions, at some point (if the incorrect or confusing word is used for certain things) you might think that instructions contradict each other. But there is something you have not considered.

6 hours ago, mister.cool40 said:

Say, If I am playing a 433 with two overlapping wingbacks, counter press and very high DL and LOE with max pressing intensity; shouldn't it be enough to indicate that my mentality is very attacking? Even IRL if I say any team is doing these things, it would be crystal clear to anyone that this team is playing very high risk football. But in FM, you could put a very defensive mentality with these instructions; which doesn't make any sense.

 

7 hours ago, mister.cool40 said:

Now I am aware that it has been said many times in the forum that mentality description doesn't mean anything and mentality just means Risk. But when you are setting your DL much higher it already means high risk.

You are correct, mentality is about risk. It is possible to have overlapping wingbacks that are more focused on dribbling and making early crosses. It is also possible to have fullbacks that overlap just to provide width and they just play simple balls to the center of midfield. Either of those things are possible with exactly the same mentality. So what is mentality for? Mentality is for the ATTACK phase. it is about risk during the ATTACK phase.

6 hours ago, mister.cool40 said:

This is not an organic way to create a tactic and no real manager would ask his team to park the bus with overlapping fullbacks and ultra high DL.

What you just described here is two different phases. Overlapping fullbacks and "park the bus" (by that, I assume  you mean "Very Defensive" mentality")--those are things have to do with where your players stand and what they do while you are attacking, which means when you have possession. Ultra high DL is the only defense instruction. Those two phases are completely different.

• Overlapping fullbacks: while ATTACKING (you have possession), your fullbacks push high. (This instruction affects only your fullbacks and wingers. It tells wingers to hold the ball long enough for fullbacks to overlap them. It tells fullbacks to push higher.)
• Very Defensive mentality (aka park the bus): while ATTACKING (you have possession), players limit through balls and waste time on the ball (This instruction is meant to affect all players, but especially those with GENERAL roles, like central midfielder or fullback. It is not meant to affect specific roles, like attacking wingbacks.)
• Ultra high DL: while DEFENDING (you do NOT have possession), engage attack players higher on the pitch.

Are there managers that play like this? Some people (depending on who you ask) might tell you that this is--in FM terms--how Barcelona plays. (Barcelona does not complete many crosses or try to beat the offside trap as much as other teams do. And if they do, it's only because they have the ball more than the other team. Because they have the ball so often, it makes it seem like they play attacking and "risky" when they actually don't. However, Barcelona often change from low tempo to high tempo and back to low tempo again, and that is why I personally think Barcelona plays with a Balanced or Positive mentality--in FM terms.) The point is, all of the instructions do DIFFERENT things. They do not contradict each other. You may have a good argument somewhere in there, but first you'll have to get rid of the flaws. But there are other parts of your argument that are very interesting.

For example, when you say...

7 hours ago, mister.cool40 said:

In very defensive mentality description it is written that, "unlike the defensive mentality it is not looking to score on the counter attack...".  Now you can play a very defensive mentality and also select the Counter TI in the transition section. What happens when you selcet both? We don't know! Now people could experiment with these two instructions together to see what happens.

...I think that is an excellent point. The description of "Very Defensive" directly contradicts the Counter TI.

This may simply be an oversight. Perhaps when the TRANSITION phase was added (in FM 19 or 20, don't know which), the mentality description was not properly updated to reflect that there is now a different place to set whether you want to Counter. Or it could be intentional design by SI. Either way, this is an issue that any logical person would want to see resolved.

[herne79]

You can kind of already do it - pick a Mentality (I'd recommend Balanced) and don't touch it again.  Use your other tactical settings to set up your system in combination with your player's capabilities and try it out.  If you need to make tactical changes during a match, just change tactical settings other than mentality.  It's actually a pretty interesting way of playing as you start to rely more on your players and, in my opinion, can understand better how everything interacts.

Without a massive re-write, getting rid of Mentality would possibly mean just that anyway: locking it to a Mentality (Balanced?) and hiding it so that it can't be changed.

Here's something that's already been tried out.  It's a bit more extreme than just leaving mentality set to Balanced but it shows what can be done:

 

[mister.cool40]

2 hours ago, herne79 said:

Here's something that's already been tried out.  It's a bit more extreme than just leaving mentality set to Balanced but it shows what can be done:

I actually read this thread before. It's a very interesting experiment. I use this type of vanilla tactic (with no TI) when I am out of ideas, particulary against big teams in away matches. The inspiration is of course your thread.

 

2 hours ago, herne79 said:

Without a massive re-write, getting rid of Mentality would possibly mean just that anyway: locking it to a Mentality (Balanced?) and hiding it so that it can't be changed

Hmm...I also think improving TIs and PIs will be necessary if mentality was to be removed. But do you think there is a chance that current mentality system will be removed or improved in future?

 

[CARRERA]

I don’t think mentality should be removed, as it defines your overall teams mentality and the scale for all phases of play on which your tactic is build on.

especially since I don’t see a replacement for adjusting individual players mentality. Duties can’t step in for that. 

However, players are not guided through the process of tactics creation as much as it would be needed for its complexity. But I think that’s on intend as it’s one of the most fun parts of the game to tinker around.

[mister.cool40]

21 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

But I think that’s on intend as it’s one of the most fun parts of the game to tinker around.

But the complexity can sometimes make you rip your head off

[jcp1417]

3 hours ago, mister.cool40 said:

But the complexity can sometimes make you rip your head off

And resort to downloading tactics, which are often cheat tactics. If the game did a better job of explaining everything, it would arm the user with knowledge so they knew what they were doing

[Manjusaka]

Partially agree.

IMO it is not only mentality which needs to be removed, but also the concept of RISK. Risk is a situational concept but the game treats it in a simple way. In the game high risk means high tempo, more direct passing, getting forward, high LOE, high D-line. But in reality risk depends on how your team plays. For a big team playing patient possession football, playing direct passes can mean high risk as it risks the loss of possession. But to a small team playing counter-attack, playing direct and high tempo passes is actually less riskier than building up with short passes at the back. Thus some people advocate using a low mentality for possession football, and using a high mentality for counterattacking football, which is pretty counter-intuitive. 

IMO the tactics part of the game needs a big rethink. They set up presets but they don't work as intended. Some people think that presets are presets  and are not guaranteed to work but IMO they are SUPPOSED to work. I believe it is an evidence that the match tactics engine does not work as how they think it should work.

[herne79]

9 minutes ago, Manjusaka said:

They set up presets but they don't work as intended. Some people think that presets are presets  and are not guaranteed to work but IMO they are SUPPOSED to work.

They're not supposed to just work, SI have even said as much.  They are there as a starting point only, something for you to use and adjust depending on your players and opposition.  They may work in some situations and some presets may work better than others without adjustment, but they never have been tactics you can just load up and play.

However, that isn't communicated very well in game though.

[Manjusaka]

刚才, herne79说:

hey are there as a starting point only, something for you to use and adjust depending on your players and opposition.  They may work in some situations and some presets may work better than others without adjustment, but they never have been tactics you can just load up and play.

However, that isn't communicated very well in game though.

When I mean "supposed to work", I mean it should work to a certain degree when it is put on a suitable team. Like you have a Barcelona team at its peak like a few years ago in real life, you use the tiki-taka preset, you face a weak opposition, then it is reasonable to expect that it should work like a tiki-taka. But if you still see the skillful defenders hoofing the ball for no reason, then there is something wrong.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Manjusaka said:

But if you still see the skillful defenders hoofing the ball for no reason, then there is something wrong.

Which is when you make a little adjustment .

[zyfon5]

18 hours ago, WizbaII said:

For example, when you say...

...I think that is an excellent point. The description of "Very Defensive" directly contradicts the Counter TI.

This may simply be an oversight. Perhaps when the TRANSITION phase was added (in FM 19 or 20, don't know which), the mentality description was not properly updated to reflect that there is now a different place to set whether you want to Counter. Or it could be intentional design by SI. Either way, this is an issue that any logical person would want to see resolved.

I think there is a misunderstanding of the Counter TI here. The Counter TI only lowers the requirements for a counter attack to trigger in comparison to the current mentality. So even if playing on Very defensive mentality counter attacks could still be triggered regardless if you selected the counter TI if the prerequisites are being met. By playing on Very defensive mentality you have already sort of reduce the possibility for a counter attack even if you have selected the counter TI.

[CARRERA]

6 hours ago, Manjusaka said:

But to a small team playing counter-attack, playing direct and high tempo passes is actually less riskier than building up with short passes at the back. Thus some people advocate using a low mentality for possession football, and using a high mentality for counterattacking football, which is pretty counter-intuitive. 

That’s actually a good example of how misleading the game is. Short passing is equal to simple, low risk (safe/sideways) passes which is exactly what technical bad teams are looking for to not loose possession as it’s also super hard to press against that effectively. A fast paced direct passing game requires high quality players and technical skills to be effective.

a low quality Team trying that would suffer horrendously in loss of possession and being caught at the break.

It’s also quite nonsense to call out a positive mentality for counter attacking football and Lower ones for possession football in terms of what you see from top sides irl

Its how we picture what happens in Reallife that tricks us into those traps. especially as we often try to fit multi strategy match plans from reallife into one tactic. Teams like Barca and city have phases where they play fast and direct when they are looking to score and apply pressure, while they might wanna rest the moment after and do that with playing short simple and sideways passes.

the thinking of how you want your team to play always starts with the formation and your roles and duties, not the instructions. They are just a third layer to finetune here and there. Never start off with them. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by CARRERA