Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I don't really like asking for help from other people, but I've been playing this game for two or three years now and I've only ever won one domestic tournament, the Icelandic Third Division, and the Gold Cup once with the USA (but that's not saying much). I used to think it was my players, but now I think my tactical skills are just...awful. This is the tactic I'm using with my (non-Icelandic) team. I feel like it should be working, but it just...isn't. The tactics I use in my other games are all variations of this one, just optimized to the players (i.e., I shift the formation around).

image.png.504784a01fe0c90e749097737429a269.png

I know some players are injured, tired, etc. But I just put them in the squad for this photo so you can see that my players are not that bad.

image.png.659c4b0dd124464ef4cc1c8bbe71d911.png

Sometimes I turn on 'shoot on sight' and 'be more expressive'. We focus play down the left because that is where this particular team is strongest.

image.png.c17a3ae681fd9de25195359801514f51.png

I'm distributing to flanks because we are strongest on the flanks, my AML and AMR are probably my best players.

 

 

 

Anyway, this is the result...a bit of an extreme case, and we did have some players out on U19 international duty, but still, we were expected to have at least drawn the game.

image.png.aa2ad83c9651d17526e5fd59c9ca2ff4.png

I mean, we dominated this match...I know you get unlucky every now and then, and results like that do happen in real life. But it feels like this happens all the time.

 

So, there you have it, any help is greatly appreciated.

 

Also, one more thing. My assistant manager regularly suggests that I change my mentality for games even though I like playing positive, flowing soccer. The problem is, he tends to be right...I never win if I don't follow his seemingly random advice. I mean, sometimes, when we're up against undeniably better opposition, I get it, but sometimes he wants us to play defensively against a team we should be beating. Why does he give this advice?

Thanks in advance

image.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

How good is your team compared to the other teams in your league? I mean what can be expected by your team?

In the pre-season prediction we are in 5th out of 13. Currently in the actual standings we sit in 10th, but other teams have a game in hand.

 

For a direct comparison - we have the highest rating in free kicks, crossing, passing, off the ball, positioning, and technique in the league. We are above average in every other statistic, except various physical statistics like strength and pace (we're close to the average though), as well as heading and stamina.  We also have low leadership and teamwork.

image.png.2e7284f8a66742f9967c416d9c298d5f.png

image.png.be8789697695f751a0cbc61b859b8972.png

image.png.e0e9eac9f2eb7faa7c0fea268601919e.png

image.png.c19e0c60782a8f18ab21020da35c99ae.png

image.png.fe0f50e01dfec55341f7e3659378f59f.png

image.png.adc463957fd6704ed571d3833a98abd8.png

image.png.6420753782c9ac1ce2aa27e3aa857f2b.png

image.png.0a1eef6fd7e2d380407a3f2f009b1aa4.png

But this actually brings up an interesting question too, can't we determine that from my assistant manager's star ratings? They show I have a decent attack and defence and a great midfield.

Edited by OspreyJ
Link to post
Share on other sites

I might be wrong (and providing you with outdated knowledge) but star ratings are based on how good they are in comparison to your squad. They don't indicate the quality of the player relative to other players in the game world. Also you have to factor in the assistants JPA/JPP attributes, if they are low he's not going to be a good judge of player. 

I've had to google what the hell the I Lyga is and it's the Lithuanian 2nd tier? Your players, however good they appear on the reports are still terrible in the grand scheme of things. Your players stamina is average for the league, so how will they manage to play at a high tempo and counter press for 90 minutes? You'd be lucky to get 20 minutes out of them before they are knackered and give up. 

I wouldn't say you dominated that game either, the opposition had a higher shots on target ratio than you, while you had 23 shots I guarantee most were long range howlers because of your tempo and mentality. They definitely took advantage of your lack of defensive cover in the middle and ripped you apart, something you will find happening often with set ups like this. 

There's a lot wrong here with the TIs and roles so I won't go over everything (have you read the stickied threads? there's a lot to read but it will help you massively), but I will give you some advice. 

First is drop all the TIs, they are conflicting and do not suit your team in the slightest. You are managing rubbish players that can barely run, pass, dribble and shoot, things have to be basic for them. Get defensive cover in the middle, your current set up sees the CM-S (support role due to your mentality) just sit there and not do much and the mez will go off on his own up the pitch and leave your midfield wide open. CM-D/BWM-D/DLP-D (though I doubt you have a player capable of being a playmaker) are all good holding roles that will provide balance in the middle. The other midfielder should ideally be a support role in this formation, one that doesn't get too far forward so he can create a pivot in the midfield with his mate, this will allow the full backs to get higher up whilst protecting the defence at the same time. In fact a CM-S could work here alongside a defensive role, try it out and see how he gets on, you can always customize his PIs if you want him to do anything specific. 

As for your question about the assistant asking you to change mentality, he's doing it because you are not clear favourites for the next game FM is giving you a hint that you might get turned over because you are too attacking. I wouldn't say follow this advice all the time, but at this level it's probably ideal to listen because the difference in players isn't much, so if you play an open style you are going to get beat because your players can't pull it off against similar quality players. Don't think of mentality in FM as "positive means positive football", it means your players will take more risks on the ball. You can play 'attacking' football on the cautious mentality if you set the roles and TIs up in a certain way. Staying on the mentality topic, I'd probably drop it to balanced (you might be able to get away with positive against the worst teams in the league but every game? You will struggle) for now and have a clean slate tactically, only adding things situationally depending on whats happening in game. You can't really commit to this style of play at this level. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately it's a bit of a mess. I'll summarise with what I see:

 

- The first thing that screams out is the central midfield. Those roles on positive mentality, you will have virtually no defensive presence.

- Positive will already play quite fast, why extremely high tempo on top of that? Are your players good enough to play at that speed?

- I'm not going to say don't high/counter press, though you should certainly consider if your players are capable of it, but if it does work, you do win it back, and have the other side trapped in their half of the pitch.... where will the opportunities be to use Pass into Space?

- You want to use two wingers plus create space for underlaps, yet are playing narrow.

- Is there a reason you want them to underlap in the first place? I'd also query why when trying to create space you put a Mezzala into an area where the fullback will be trying to move into....

- From my perspective, focus play down the left is unnecessary. You can create natural overloads and directions of play via your selection without using the TI.

- In general your instructions when it comes to wide play are muddled... You want them to play fast/transition fast to the wings/pass it into space/hit early crosses, but yet also slow it down to create underlaps and focus on winning set pieces.

- Then there are the defensive instructions. If you're not a very strong team I'd question whether you should be defending wide, marking tight, and diving into tackles. You're going to need good individual players who can mark and tackle properly and win their duels, plus it might be better to stay compact centrally and to have safety in numbers.

 

I'll stop there but really I could say more. Go with the advice already given - think again on roles duties, remove most of the instructions until you're sure what they will achieve by selecting them, read the guides on roles/combinations etc, ask more questions and for advice if needed.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Bluebird123 said:

I might be wrong (and providing you with outdated knowledge) but star ratings are based on how good they are in comparison to your squad. They don't indicate the quality of the player relative to other players in the game world. Also you have to factor in the assistants JPA/JPP attributes, if they are low he's not going to be a good judge of player

Well, I know it's not in comparison to the whole world, but I thought it was at least in comparison to the league.

10 hours ago, Bluebird123 said:

I've had to google what the hell the I Lyga is and it's the Lithuanian 2nd tier? Your players, however good they appear on the reports are still terrible in the grand scheme of things. Your players stamina is average for the league, so how will they manage to play at a high tempo and counter press for 90 minutes? You'd be lucky to get 20 minutes out of them before they are knackered and give up. 

Maybe, but they end the game on 70%, 65% stamina...is that too low to end the game on?

10 hours ago, Bluebird123 said:

have you read the stickied threads

No...I guess I'm a little stubborn, I don't want to look at other peoples' advice. The thing is, I don't want to just play someone else's tactics. I want to play tactics that I can say, 'I made these tactics, without help from anyone. Inspiration, maybe, help, no.' But I think this stubbornness has hurt my playing and understanding of the game, so I'll get right to reading.

10 hours ago, Bluebird123 said:

TIs

what does this mean?

10 hours ago, Bluebird123 said:

BWM-D

That's what I usually play, not a mezzala, but no one is capable of playing the role at this level. I see the other ones though and understand what you're saying

 

10 hours ago, Bluebird123 said:

As for your question about the assistant asking you to change mentality, he's doing it because you are not clear favourites for the next game FM is giving you a hint that you might get turned over because you are too attacking. I wouldn't say follow this advice all the time, but at this level it's probably ideal to listen because the difference in players isn't much, so if you play an open style you are going to get beat because your players can't pull it off against similar quality players.

Actually, he often tells me to go more attacking when I wanted to stay positive, sometimes against weak opposition, yes, but sometimes against opposition I think we are kind of even with. Other times he does tell me to go more defensive against teams I suspected we would have to change mentality for anyways.

10 hours ago, Bluebird123 said:

Don't think of mentality in FM as "positive means positive football", it means your players will take more risks on the ball.

 

5 hours ago, mp_87 said:

Positive will already play quite fast, why extremely high tempo on top of that? Are your players good enough to play at that speed?

Then what is mentality? I heard that it didn't exactly match up with what it says it is, when I read a sticky thread after posting this, but that thread left it without elaboration, so I'm just a little confused on what is the definition of mentality then.

5 hours ago, mp_87 said:

but yet also slow it down to create underlaps and focus on winning set pieces.

Oh, I thought these were more opportunistic instructions, not like 'slow down to underlap' but more like 'if you have the chance to underlap or overlap, go for the underlap.' And also not 'specifically go out looking for set pieces' but more like 'don't fight it if you are fouled.' I did this because we have such a good free-kicks rating (for the league).

 

5 hours ago, mp_87 said:

defending wide, and diving into tackles.

Those are on because the assistant said 'turn those on' and as I previously noted, the assistant is usually right...

 

10 hours ago, Bluebird123 said:

have a clean slate tactically, only adding things situationally depending on whats happening in game

 

5 hours ago, mp_87 said:

remove most of the instructions

Woah woah woah, is that allowed? I mean, my players won't run around like headless chickens w/o instructions?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not arguing with either of you, I just want to understand the advice better :)

Edited by OspreyJ
Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, OspreyJ said:

Then what is mentality? I heard that it didn't exactly match up with what it says it is, when I read a sticky thread after posting this, but that thread left it without elaboration, so I'm just a little confused on what is the definition of mentality then.

Mentality adjusts quite a few instructions from baseline:

  1. Individual player mentalities:
    • more attacking mentalities: players position themselves higher both in and out of possession, start attacking runs earlier, backtrack less, choose to pass mostly forward, and try riskier actions (slide tackles, shooting more often, dribbling, and through balls)
    • more defensive mentalities: players position themselves deeper both in and out of possession, start attacking runs later, backtrack more, choose to pass mostly sideways/backwards, and avoid riskier actions (stay on feet, shooting less often, dribbling less, and playing fewer through balls)
  2. Defensive Line is higher on more attacking mentalities and lower on more defensive mentalities
  3. Line of Engagement is higher on more attacking mentalities and lower on more defensive mentalities 
  4. Tempo is higher on more attacking mentalities and lower on more defensive mentalities
  5. Passing is more direct on more attacking mentalities and shorter on more defensive mentalities 
  6. Attacking Width is wider on more attacking mentalities and lower on more defensive mentalities
  7. Players are more inclined to roam from position on more attacking mentalities and more inclined to hold their positions on more defensive mentalities
  8. Time Wasting is decreased on more attacking mentalities and decreased on more defensive mentalities 

Here is a link to a more comprehensive description on Guide to FM.

#2-#8 can all be adjusted independently using Team Instructions, but the value of the default setting changes as described above.

Edited by Prolix
Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, OspreyJ said:

So this happens automatically? So if I have an attacking mentality and then instruct the players to play with, say, a high tempo, it will add on to the tempo already set as a baseline by the mentality?

Yes, the combination of mentality and tempo instructions provides a kind of "cascade" of tempos (bold represents the baseline): 

  • Balanced: Much Lower <-- Lower <-- Standard --> Higher --> Extremely High
  • Positive: Much Lower <-- Slightly Lower <-- Slightly Higher --> Higher --> Extremely High
  • Attacking: Lower <-- Standard <-- Higher --> Much Higher --> Extremely High
  • Very Attacking: Standard <-- Slightly Higher <-- Much Higher --> Extremely High --> Extremely High

But as you can see, going from no instructions to +1 tempo on the different mentalities does have a cumulative effect. The question is whether things like Balanced +1 = Higher and Attacking +0 = Higher are the same thing in game terms. I believe that they are, which gives us a range of 9 tempo settings (if they weren't equivalent, there would be dozens of effective settings which doesn't make much sense in game terms).

Edited by Prolix
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, OspreyJ said:

I mean, my players won't run around like headless chickens w/o instructions?

My impression is that you've issued team instructions for almost every facet of play because you are concerned that if you don't the players will be 'lacking direction'. However, you have to remember that the most fundamental instructions that your players have are the combination of Role + Duty. The collection of Team Instructions is secondary to your overall arrangement of those roles and duties in your tactic. So no, it's not necessary to provide "additional" instruction at the team level if you make good decisions about how to use roles and duties to determine how the team will play.

What was your tactical vision for selecting the combination of roles+duties that you did? Was there a tactical vision? Are you being led by the attributes of each player in isolation? Or are you considering how they will interact on the pitch? 

Setting aside the glut of team instructions, your basic pattern of play involves the P-a and AM-a attacking the box and the rest of the team getting the ball to the wingers to throw early crosses towards them. Optimistically, the MEZ-s will attack the channels and try to combine with the forward players. ...that's it. With your TIs, they will also try and do all of this at 90mph (Extremely High Tempo), within compressed horizontal (Fairly Narrow) and vertical (Higher LOE, Counter-Press) space, while prioritizing set pieces at every opportunity. 

Your porous center (no holding roles in midfield) is somewhat offset by the very conservative roles in your backline. However, you are asking your wingers to look for players making underlaps while using FB roles that sit behind the play while you're attacking. Your wingers are also torn between waiting for an underlap (that isn't coming) and crossing early. 

I'm not a fan of the P-a and AM-a combination since they are both rather simple/direct roles that attack the box and do little else. This actually might be "okay" with all the crosses being aimed at the them, but let's say that it is a rather low-percentage approach.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Prolix said:

What was your tactical vision for selecting the combination of roles+duties that you did? Was there a tactical vision? Are you being led by the attributes of each player in isolation? Or are you considering how they will interact on the pitch? 

Well I considered them slightly, but I thought they didn't matter much and that the Tactical Instructions were the real important part.

51 minutes ago, Prolix said:

Setting aside the glut of team instructions, your basic pattern of play involves the P-a and AM-a attacking the box and the rest of the team getting the ball to the wingers to throw early crosses towards them.

I said in my first post that I thought about working the ball into the box instead of sending in early crosses. The reason, which I didn't describe, is I didn't want to set up a style of play where the players would not take good chances because they felt they needed to slowly 'work the ball into the box,' if that makes sense.

51 minutes ago, Prolix said:

Your wingers are also torn between waiting for an underlap (that isn't coming) and crossing early. 

See:

2 hours ago, OspreyJ said:

I thought these were more opportunistic instructions, not like 'slow down to underlap' but more like 'if you have the chance to underlap or overlap, go for the underlap.'

 

Edited by OspreyJ
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, OspreyJ said:

 

Maybe, but they end the game on 70%, 65% stamina...is that too low to end the game on?

Yes. You have to take into account that this will affect their fitness for the next game. This isn't to say you can't implement some form of pressing, but counter pressing is very extreme and it requires a ton of attributes to pull of consistently. Your players just aren't good enough to do it. 

3 hours ago, OspreyJ said:

 

No...I guess I'm a little stubborn, I don't want to look at other peoples' advice. The thing is, I don't want to just play someone else's tactics. I want to play tactics that I can say, 'I made these tactics, without help from anyone. Inspiration, maybe, help, no.' But I think this stubbornness has hurt my playing and understanding of the game, so I'll get right to reading.

Don't think of it as you copying others, the advice in those threads will help you put a tactic together and help you better understand how the roles/instructions work together.

3 hours ago, OspreyJ said:

what does this mean?

TI - Team instruction

3 hours ago, OspreyJ said:

 

 

 

Then what is mentality? I heard that it didn't exactly match up with what it says it is, when I read a sticky thread after posting this, but that thread left it without elaboration, so I'm just a little confused on what is the definition of mentality then.

@Prolix Has described mentality better than I ever could. 

3 hours ago, OspreyJ said:

 

 

 

Woah woah woah, is that allowed? I mean, my players won't run around like headless chickens w/o instructions?

No, they'll stick to what their role tells them to do (the risk they take will be determined by the mentality you set). Simple is better in FM. It's a common mistake users will make, they'll pick a ton of instructions without really knowing how they'll work in function with their players and roles. I would stick to no instructions for now and only adjust based on what's happening in your match. Say you aren't getting the ball you can up the pressing and defensive line. Or your players are moving the ball too slowly, up the tempo. Only until you are managing better players would I bother with trying to implement a particular style of football (this is just my opinion based on my own experience managing lower level teams). 

3 hours ago, OspreyJ said:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not arguing with either of you, I just want to understand the advice better :)

No worries:)  

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, OspreyJ said:

I said in my first post that I thought about working the ball into the box instead of sending in early crosses. The reason, which I didn't describe, is I didn't want to set up a style of play where the players would not take good chances because they felt they needed to slowly 'work the ball into the box,' if that makes sense.

 I would recommend this thread for some ideas about how you might set up a team to play the kind of fast + direct football it sounds like you are looking for. :thup:

Although it was written for FM21, the ideas should be basically compatible with FM19.

Edited by Prolix
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...