Match 51 THE FINAL: Italy vs England - 8pm Sunday BBC1 AND ITV1 LIVE FROM WEMBLEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GunmaN1905]

4 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

(Interesting choice of manager for the graphic by the way. Not the man I'd be picking to make the "sitting on a lead never works" argument )

First major trophy landed in Rome not even a week after his arrival.

[akkm]

1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

No, what's embarrassing is your insistence that two managers who took their teams from total failure to tournament finals are both too cowardly to succeed...

(Interesting choice of manager for the graphic by the way. Not the man I'd be picking to make the "sitting on a lead never works" argument )

 

 

lol, you mean you went to all that effort to link bad grammar, pop psychology and a bunch of England players that have never met me and it was just a troll? And I thought I had too much time on my hands  

 

Yeah even more emphatic proof. It wasn't personal at all. Just an observation...no need for a disproportionate reaction. Plus spending some free time on the golf course with the sun shining so I'll leave u to it. 

Its as I said it is re your subconscious choice of words plus ur small picture acceptance that it was the pen. Of course matter of factly it was in the match but there's so much more to it than that. You either see it or you don't. As for ur defence of mount that reveals a lot in terms of not losing instead of trying to win as well.

Anyway back to the golf

[akkm]

Hey just fyi don't mean ur personal psyche @enigmatic more that England's style is more geared towards not losing after the many years of underachievement perceived or otherwise england are almost ok with not winning kind of thing

[Astafjevs]

Enigmatic has been a consistent embarrassment with his description of Italy's run. Just ignore it. You'd think we stumbled through the knockouts and won by luck. 

[enigmatic]

You're... not making any more sense. I said "England didn't lose because..." to rebut this forum's weird fondness for reframing the match (and tournament) as England losing by being taught a lesson in attacking football rather than the actual shootout finale to a team that hasn't conceded a second goal to anyone else in the last five years either, not because I'm obsessed by not losing or have any connection at all with what the England team think.

Enjoy the 19th hole, sounds like you've been there a while 

 

[GunmaN1905]

7 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

as England losing by being taught a lesson in attacking football

Being 1-0 up after a minute on a full Wembley and not making a single shot until the rest of regular time is the definition of being taught a lesson.

Let's just say that if you copy-pasted this game into club football, any EPL and CL game, with Mourinho in Southgate's place, every single media outlet would still be trashing him for parking the bus.

[enigmatic]

47 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

Enigmatic has been a consistent embarrassment with his description of Italy's run. Just ignore it. You'd think we stumbled through the knockouts and won by luck. 

What? I've said you were great in the opening rounds, I've said your tactics against Spain were perfectly justified before and after you won when even some of your own fans were less happy, I've said you did enough to deserve an equaliser our defence made your forwards work hard for, I filled my team of the tournament with Italian players, I just think it's total bollocks to act like Italy (and frankly any other nation) would never stoop to defending without the ball or pretend that only England had any luck. 

Frankly, I think it's far more insulting to the Italian team to insinuate the only reason they equalised and England didn't carve them open was Gareth.

You won a tournament by getting the big moments right. Well done. If we won the shootout all the people lining up to suggest Mancini and your forwards were clueless and cowardly bottlers would also be wrong.

Edited July 13, 2021 by enigmatic

[enigmatic]

3 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Being 1-0 up after a minute on a full Wembley and not making a single shot until the rest of regular time is the definition of being taught a lesson.

Let's just say that if you copy-pasted this game into club football, any EPL and CL game, with Mourinho in Southgate's place, every single media outlet would still be trashing him for parking the bus.

The definition of being taught a lesson in attacking football is getting spanked, not Italy shooting from all angles until they earn an equaliser and then playing it safe (but ironically the two chances they did have in the last 53 minutes were the best open play chances all game, because more gaps at the back). They scored the same number of goals as us. And no, our shots weren't all in extra time, and Italy didn't look vulnerable once we added Grealish and a winger 

Mourinho might get trashed all the time, but he's also won a **** ton of trophies, despite penalty shootout record that's nearly as bad as ours. Pretty sure Gareth wouldn't mind a Mourinho comparison...

[StevehFC]

Class from us 

 

[Tikka Mezzala]

1 minute ago, StevehFC said:

Class from us 

 

Great signing!

[FrazT]

Final comment about the penalty takers- no manager in the world is going to select players to take a penalty in a shoot out without having strong evidence from practice that they are capable and ready for such a task and is sure that they will score.

The problem is that players who can have a high % success rate in training when there is no pressure, but the match situation and pressure cannot be replicated in training, so nobody really knows how the player will react.

[The Amazing Dale Watkins]

26 minutes ago, FrazT said:

The problem is that players who can have a high % success rate in training when there is no pressure, but the match situation and pressure cannot be replicated in training, so nobody really knows how the player will react.

Not to belabour the point too much, but that's known to the manager as well, which makes it all the more surprising that he would still turn to someone who's never been under even a remotely similar amount of pressure to take the decisive pen when there are seasoned professionals available who've at least taken penalties at the club level.

[HOORAY HENRIK]

4 hours ago, Tikka Mezzala said:

Great signing!

Yep. Means he’ll be at Celtic in 2 years time.

[FrazT]

4 hours ago, The Amazing Dale Watkins said:

Not to belabour the point too much, but that's known to the manager as well, which makes it all the more surprising that he would still turn to someone who's never been under even a remotely similar amount of pressure to take the decisive pen when there are seasoned professionals available who've at least taken penalties at the club level.

I don't dispute this at all and the decision is certainly open to question.  All that I am saying is that the decision will not have ben made randomly and all factors from the training field and coach input would have been taken into account before arriving at the players and their order.  No manager or coach is going to chose a player for a task and think that he cant perform that task.

Out of curiosity- how many penalties has McGuire taken in his career?  His was without doubt the best one but I don't recall him as a regular taker.

[The Amazing Dale Watkins]

I concede the point that nobody on this forum has more insight into the state of the team than the manager and his staff.

[m_fenton]

3 hours ago, FrazT said:

I don't dispute this at all and the decision is certainly open to question.  All that I am saying is that the decision will not have ben made randomly and all factors from the training field and coach input would have been taken into account before arriving at the players and their order.  No manager or coach is going to chose a player for a task and think that he cant perform that task.

Out of curiosity- how many penalties has McGuire taken in his career?  His was without doubt the best one but I don't recall him as a regular taker.

Is that Maguire's Scottish cousin Hamish who's still celebrating their famous 0-0 thrashing of us?

[eenie]

3 hours ago, FrazT said:

Out of curiosity- how many penalties has McGuire taken in his career?  His was without doubt the best one but I don't recall him as a regular taker.

Maguire had taken fewer than ten pens before Sunday night iirc.

There was a tweet the other day listing the penalty record of the England side, player by player, and it was notable how few experienced penalty takers there were.

[The_jagster]

It's because they were all so young, fearless and unburdened by previous failure. 

[craigcwwe]

2 hours ago, The_jagster said:

It's because they were all so young, fearless and unburdened by previous failure. 

I guess it's only right then that another generation of young England players have a penalty loss on their rap sheet. 

It's the England way after all.

Edited July 14, 2021 by craigcwwe

[qwertygod]

3 hours ago, m_fenton said:

Is that Maguire's Scottish cousin Hamish who's still celebrating their famous 0-0 thrashing of us?

Must also be related to 'Steven McDonald' who supposedly forced a world class save by Pickford in the same game according to Matterface,

 

We will take no lessons on ignorance from you lot 

[TM]

4 hours ago, The_jagster said:

It's because they were all so young, fearless and unburdened by previous failure. 

considering Maguire is generally somebody Twitter has a go at (or he's the butt of a joke) for the PL, I think a lot of people respected the fact that he had the balls to take a pen and took it really well I know Southgate said he picked the players on some sort of criteria of the players taking pens but you still have to put it away

although I expect it will be back to normal when he makes a mistake for Man Utd

Edited July 14, 2021 by TM

[Federico]

I think penalties are drama for whoever takes it. You might be 19, or 35, doesn't make any difference. It's 80% about mentality and cold-blood, 20% technique.

I myself always suffered penalties when I used to play football in my youth ages. Unfortunately my coach always pointed at me on penalties shootout 'cause I was pretty decent technically.

Winning or losing on penalties is a matter of luck of course, technique surely and mentality absolutely. Southgate could be terribly right at chosing the right penalty takers if he watched deep enough in their attitudes and how they reacted to big pressures. It doesn't matter that much how old you are if you're mentally strong. And even with this, the goalie could be absolutely outstanding on saving it.

[craigcwwe]

1 hour ago, Federico said:

I think penalties are drama for whoever takes it. You might be 19, or 35, doesn't make any difference. It's 80% about mentality and cold-blood, 20% technique.

I myself always suffered penalties when I used to play football in my youth ages. Unfortunately my coach always pointed at me on penalties shootout 'cause I was pretty decent technically.

Winning or losing on penalties is a matter of luck of course, technique surely and mentality absolutely. Southgate could be terribly right at chosing the right penalty takers if he watched deep enough in their attitudes and how they reacted to big pressures. It doesn't matter that much how old you are if you're mentally strong. And even with this, the goalie could be absolutely outstanding on save it.

The term 'penalties are a lottery' always bugs me. They aren't. It's not all about luck. It's mostly the mentality of the player taking them, technique and perhaps some good fortune.

75% mentality
15% technique
10% luck

Something like that if we break it down. The ability to stay calm under huge pressure is the overriding factor imo. Technically being able to strike the ball well and a little bit of good fortune if the GK goes the right way or you just happen to not catch the ball as well as you'd like etc.

Edited July 14, 2021 by craigcwwe

[VamPook]

As mentioned before, penalty shootouts are a huge mental test for players, and definitely not much of lotteries

Pretty good decider by testing how players deal under pressure and then there's also the keeper as well

Not sure if anyone can find a video, but Emi Martinez mindgames and performance in the shootout vs Colombia was staggering

Honestly never seen a keeper so damn overpowering in a shootout before

https://www.givemesport.com/1718073-emiliano-martinezs-mind-games-in-argentina-vs-colombia-shootout-shown-in-video

[Federico]

The thing that surprised me the most with penalties is that with recent rule changes about the goalkeeper, I thought it was almost impossible now to save a penalty. I've been proven wrong many times.

[GunmaN1905]

1 hour ago, Federico said:

I myself always suffered penalties when I used to play football in my youth ages.

I was a elementary school hero for a couple of years when I scored the decisive penalty in a final shootout.

6 minutes ago, Federico said:

The thing that surprised me the most with penalties is that with recent rule changes about the goalkeeper, I thought it was almost impossible now to save a penalty. I've been proven wrong many times.

Honestly, it's ridiculous for attackers to have so much freedom when it comes to stutter-steps.
Somehow understandable during regular games, but there needs to be more skill involved with penalty shootouts.

During shootouts, I'd allow keepers to do anything they want within their 5m box, then you can call taking penalties skill.

This will always be the most hillarious penalty for me, no clue how that one wasn't repeated.

[Federico]

7 minuti fa, GunmaN1905 ha scritto:

I was a elementary school hero for a couple of years when I scored the decisive penalty in a final shootout.

If I have to picture myself after a shootout, I can easily see me crying and patted by my teammates. Oh but I scored some too, I wasn't a total failure!

And that's all I have to say about penalties.

Well not: all the major international trophies won by the teams I support, have been won after a penalty shootout. I'm getting old and my heart is no longer strong as it used to be 20 years ago. It would be extremely appreciated if at least for ONCE IN MY LIFE TO WIN A FINAL GAME 21-0. THANKS. (sorry for caps, it was for emphatyzing the feeling).

Admittedly, there's no win Italy has got without dying of sufference.

[m_fenton]

Played as a goalkeeper when I was younger, at no particular level just local youth teams. Absolutely loved penalties, probably my favourite thing. Pretty much no risk of having blame on you by the end, a chance to be the hero, and get to fool around putting the takers off too. Not sure how much that carries through to international level mind you, and definitely never wanted to take on myself.

[Yuko]

1 hour ago, Federico said:

Admittedly, there's no win Italy has got without dying of sufference.

Which makes Inter the perfect Italian side that reflects the identity

[Yuko]

34 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

Played as a goalkeeper when I was younger, at no particular level just local youth teams. Absolutely loved penalties, probably my favourite thing. Pretty much no risk of having blame on you by the end, a chance to be the hero, and get to fool around putting the takers off too. Not sure how much that carries through to international level mind you, and definitely never wanted to take on myself.

 

At a completely amateur level, I did both. 

 

I was pretty good at kicking them, helped that I was unpredictable shooting with both feet equally well. 

 

GK wise, it's not just luck. You don't just "pick" a side. You read the movement. Some players cannot be read until the final milisecond, which is where luck comes in. But you can read body language or study a player's move and see if it's going right or left depending on the angle his body is taking as long as you know his strong foot. If you decide to move before the shot is made and the taker is cool enough to have his eyes on the goal rather than the ball, you're screwed. The best takers are those who read the goalkeepers, the best stoppers are those who read the kickers. Luck plays a part, but it's the least important factor. Of course, there are certain shots that are virtually unstoppable, those are the best, but even the best takers cannot replicate those every single time. 

[Butts]

1 hour ago, m_fenton said:

Played as a goalkeeper when I was younger, at no particular level just local youth teams. Absolutely loved penalties, probably my favourite thing. Pretty much no risk of having blame on you by the end, a chance to be the hero, and get to fool around putting the takers off too. Not sure how much that carries through to international level mind you, and definitely never wanted to take on myself.

I used to love penalties as well when I played in goal, knowing exactly when someone is going to shoot and just anticipating where the shot was going rather than anything unpredictable and no pressure, what's not to like.

[Citizen Sandman]

I once missed a pen in a semi final, pissing of rain. I think I've taken one since...

[Bigwig]

I remember David Seaman taking about penalties and saying he didn’t mind them as there’s no pressure in the goalkeeper so saving it makes you a hero while you’d have to make a big mistake to be criticised for letting one in. 

[Marius_R]

Had a coach in our youth team when I was 10 or 11 and every time in training, he used to say to us to always shoot with power in penalties. I took that advice with me, and even if I'm playing 5-a-side, 7-a-side or full 11-a-side (happens fairly rarely, like once or twice a year) , when I get to take a penalty, I always shoot with power. I've had very few saved by the goalkeeper, and mostly by professional football, futsal or field hockey goalies anyway,  but I've scored more against themselves than what they've saved. I've had two or three Ramos moments from wanting to blast it under the crossbar, but my conversion rate is pretty good. 

 

 

[Federico]

26 minuti fa, Marius_R ha scritto:

Had a coach in our youth team when I was 10 or 11 and every time in training, he used to say to us to always shoot with power in penalties. I took that advice with me, and even if I'm playing 5-a-side, 7-a-side or full 11-a-side (happens fairly rarely, like once or twice a year) , when I get to take a penalty, I always shoot with power. I've had very few saved by the goalkeeper, and mostly by professional football, futsal or field hockey goalies anyway,  but I've scored more against themselves than what they've saved. I've had two or three Ramos moments from wanting to blast it under the crossbar, but my conversion rate is pretty good.

A good penalty is a penalty that is scored, whatever the style you kick the ball with. To be honest, kicking the ball with power doesn't grant any precision, so I prefer a flat, clinical ball kicked between the post and the support behind it. And I think the lower is kicked the ball, the harder is for the keeper to save it (especially if he's quite tall).

[The Amazing Dale Watkins]

If any team is struggling with penalties they just need to call up more Mainz 05 players. We haven't missed a penalty in over 8 years, converting 30+ penalties in a row in the Bundesliga

[Marius_R]

30+ penalties is what Milan and Lazio have in a season. 

[Marius_R]

He's a very likeable guy, and I respect him as a person. 

[Wolf_pd]

On 14/07/2021 at 19:25, Yuko said:

GK wise, it's not just luck. You don't just "pick" a side. You read the movement. Some players cannot be read until the final milisecond, which is where luck comes in. But you can read body language or study a player's move and see if it's going right or left depending on the angle his body is taking as long as you know his strong foot. If you decide to move before the shot is made and the taker is cool enough to have his eyes on the goal rather than the ball, you're screwed. The best takers are those who read the goalkeepers, the best stoppers are those who read the kickers. Luck plays a part, but it's the least important factor. Of course, there are certain shots that are virtually unstoppable, those are the best, but even the best takers cannot replicate those every single time. 

Copy that. Played in a different sport at a much lower level than I was able to. Reading a players intention was possible (and a lot easier than the level I came from!!) and the mere fact you were able to stop penalties gave that added 'fear the keeper' bonus as well.