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Match 51 THE FINAL: Italy vs England - 8pm Sunday BBC1 AND ITV1 LIVE FROM WEMBLEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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16 minutes ago, eenie said:

Mate he was a couple of penalties away from winning the ****ing thing!

And?

You can't look at it that way, you have to look at context and how England plays.

Football ultimately rewards you, Southgate doesn't deserve anything because of his tactics.

After 2018 semi-final, everyone agreed it was a learning experience, losing a lead like that against a more experienced team.

What does he do? Plays exactly the same in this tournament.

No other team has so much attacking depth and options, yet England played like some second grade team.

 

Scored fairly early against subpar Croatia and then just held onto the lead without really trying to finish the game.

Scotland? Did absolutely nothing.

Czechs? Same thing as Croatia.

Germany? You can never say they don't have the quality, but they just played an even game against Hungary days before that. Could've easily went the other way if Muller didn't miss that chance. Still, the best managed game this tournament by Southgate.

Ukraine? Same thing, early lead. They fell apart after 2-0, scored after a set piece.

Denmark? Here it was the other way around, England did really well to come back and equalize, started dominating the game and by the time that penalty happened Denmark looked like they're absolutely done and ready to concede a few in the ET. But then again, as soon as you scored it reverted to almost panic defending.

Italy? Said it multiple times already, embarrassing more or less catenaccio whole game long. You get a 1-0 lead in front of full Wembley and you resort to panic defending, don't deserve anything else. Litereally not a single shot after the goal during regular time. There's absolutely no excuse for that.

 

Honestly, I don't get some of you guys. You obviously had one of the best squads in the tournament, if not the best after France. You're playing at home, you take the lead and you're content after the loss in the final?

This was cowardly coaching and nothing else.

Southgate really looks like a great guy, but he's a loser. No other way to put it.
Not because he lost, but because he's a coward who'll never grow out of it.

Just compare for example this game to Italy's games, they never stopped trying to score and put the game away, no matter who they play against.

On the other side, Southgate plays 3 CBs and two midfielders who're way better in defense than going forward. Alongside two proper full-backs.

If you're fine with him absolutely shackling this team, I won't object, but even as someone who wanted England to lose every single game, it was frustrating to watch, so much unused potential.

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1 minute ago, Wiggins Top Boys said:

My wife is English with a Scottish parent and brought up in Scotland. She's always told me she hated growing up here and was made to never feel welcome. We have friends and family that quite frankly have taken friendly rivalry and shown themselves up as people full of bile and hatred towards the English. Yesterday my 3 year old daughter was even receiving comments for wearing her England shirt out in town.

This is not the thread to discuss my entire personal circumstances just to justify what I said. But I don't want my children to experience the same as what my wife did and yesterday was a nasty insight into that. So you can laugh all you like. I love Scotland and a lot of the people here but many, including people that are supposed to be my friend have showed themselves up massively and I am embarrassed for them.

There's no doubt that there is a streak of anti-English sentiment in Scotland, but to take your anecdote and turn it around, both of my parents are from England and have lived in Scotland for over 50 years and they haven't experienced any anti-English sentiment. I never experienced any either, despite growing up with a more "English" accent than many of my childhood friends. The vast majority of Scots don't harbour any animosity towards England or the English, and vice versa. I'm sorry that you have felt bile and hatred.

I also have a feeling that you may be one of those people who enjoy "friendly rivalry" when you are getting the upper hand, but don't like "bile and hatred" when you are on the receiving end rather than dishing it out.

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3 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Honestly, I don't get some of you guys. You obviously had one of the best squads in the tournament, if not the best after France. You're playing at home, you take the lead and you're content after the loss in the final?

Seeing as you wrote this out directly after quoting my post, I feel I must point out that I'm not English :D 

My point, which may have been missed, is that if a couple of penalties had gone the other way then there wouldn't be the same level of soul-searching or criticism about negative tactics. The ends justify the means in football and had England won on penalties last night then we'd be getting a completely different narrative about Southgate's tactics from the same people who are complaining today.

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8 minutes ago, Wiggins Top Boys said:

My wife is English with a Scottish parent and brought up in Scotland. She's always told me she hated growing up here and was made to never feel welcome. We have friends and family that quite frankly have taken friendly rivalry and shown themselves up as people full of bile and hatred towards the English. Yesterday my 3 year old daughter was even receiving comments for wearing her England shirt out in town.

This is not the thread to discuss my entire personal circumstances just to justify what I said. But I don't want my children to experience the same as what my wife did and yesterday was a nasty insight into that. So you can laugh all you like. I love Scotland and a lot of the people here but many, including people that are supposed to be my friend have showed themselves up massively and I am embarrassed for them.

I'm genuinely sorry for what you're wife and daughter have had to deal with, but to infer that Scotland is not a good place to bring up a family if you're English is quite a leap. Is England a bad place to raise a German speaking family because some idiots will dole out abuse to a German girl crying? Or a Danish family? No. Because it would be silly to tarnish an entire society like that. 

We have idiots up here like you have down there. 

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3 minutes ago, eenie said:

There's no doubt that there is a streak of anti-English sentiment in Scotland, but to take your anecdote and turn it around, both of my parents are from England and have lived in Scotland for over 50 years and they haven't experienced any anti-English sentiment. I never experienced any either, despite growing up with a more "English" accent than many of my childhood friends. The vast majority of Scots don't harbour any animosity towards England or the English, and vice versa. I'm sorry that you have felt bile and hatred.

I also have a feeling that you may be one of those people who enjoy "friendly rivalry" when you are getting the upper hand, but don't like "bile and hatred" when you are on the receiving end rather than dishing it out.

You don't know me at all so that is not true, but happy to concede that perhaps my wife's 'friends' and family are truly not very nice.

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**** me Gunman your posts are always absolutely bizarre, writing with the benefit of hindsight as if choices in the first place were completely obvious and as if you would have done it perfectly every time. Everyone is a 'bottle job' and every player who isn't absolutely world class is 'awful'. Armchair football fans at their worst. You expect every game to finish 5-0 to the best team and anything less is crap. If coaching was this easy then why aren't you in charge somewhere?

Southgate is not without criticism, far from it, but calling him a coward and this and that... Opinions would have been totally different if the 50:50 lottery had gone the other way and we had won the thing. When it is on a knife edge as fine as that, coming out and saying he is a coward, a loser and and an awful manager when the absolute opposite would have been said about him if luck had gone the other way only shows that the overly harsh criticism of him is totally invalid.

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3 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Just compare for example this game to Italy's games, they never stopped trying to score and put the game away, no matter who they play against.

Italy got to the final doing to Spain exactly what we tried to do to Italy, but taking better penalties...

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1 minute ago, Wiggins Top Boys said:

You don't know me at all so that is not true, but happy to concede that perhaps my wife's 'friends' and family are truly not very nice.

I can only speak for what I do know about you, which is based entirely on your posting history. And you love to dish it out but don't seem able to take it back.

And as @Tikka Mezzalasays, you should avoid tarring an entire country with the same brush. Obviously your own experiences will colour your perception but you need to watch for extrapolating that too far.

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5 minutes ago, eenie said:

I can only speak for what I do know about you, which is based entirely on your posting history. And you love to dish it out but don't seem able to take it back.

And as @Tikka Mezzalasays, you should avoid tarring an entire country with the same brush. Obviously your own experiences will colour your perception but you need to watch for extrapolating that too far.

Nobody ever does that about England or Millwall fans so we're all good there :thup:

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12 minutes ago, foolsgold said:

**** me Gunman your posts are always absolutely bizarre, writing with the benefit of hindsight as if choices in the first place were completely obvious and as if you would have done it perfectly every time. Everyone is a 'bottle job' and every player who isn't absolutely world class is 'awful'. Armchair football fans at their worst. You expect every game to finish 5-0 to the best team and anything less is crap. If coaching was this easy then why aren't you in charge somewhere?

Southgate is not without criticism, far from it, but calling him a coward and this and that... Opinions would have been totally different if the 50:50 lottery had gone the other way and we had won the thing. When it is on a knife edge as fine as that, coming out and saying he is a coward, a loser and and an awful manager when the absolute opposite would have been said about him if luck had gone the other way only shows that the overly harsh criticism of him is totally invalid.

My main issue, and maybe only real issue with Southgate is that I don't think he's great at using subs. Given the major depth, that's something we need to learn from. But if you'd told me at the beginning of the tournament we'd lose to Italy on penalties in the final I'd have considered that a great tournament. Still hurts mind. But it's no end of an era. Plenty more to come. 

But yeah can't get on board with his easy assertions after the fact

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4 minutes ago, foolsgold said:

**** me Gunman your posts are always absolutely bizarre, writing with the benefit of hindsight as if choices in the first place were completely obvious and as if you would have done it perfectly every time.

I literally said 2018 was a learning experience.

Games you played this touranment were copy/paste if we talk tactical setup.

Quote

Everyone is a 'bottle job' and every player who isn't absolutely world class is 'awful'.

Noone was a bottle job last night except for Southgate.
His approach to the game was awful, especially after the early goal.
Kane is the only player who can get a negative grade.

Everything else is on the coach.

Quote

Opinions would have been totally different if the 50:50 lottery had gone the other way and we had won the thing.

No. You can go back and find the posts before the shootout started. I said the same thing then. Southgate shackled the team.

7 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Italy got to the final doing to Spain exactly what we tried to do to Italy, but taking better penalties...

Those games are way different. Italy conceded 10 minutes before the end.

And their depth is laughable. Bernardeschi, Berardi and Belotti wouldn't have made the English squad.
Lingard, Ings and Gayle if you want.

Due to injuries there are also no full-back replacements and midfield was way weaker.

On the other side, Southgate has half a dozen attacking options that are all about equal if we talk quality.

And he did nothing with them.

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23 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

And let's be honest, most of us including me didn't want to see wingbacks, but they combined for our opening goal and Italy had no idea how to deal with them at the start, so difficult to fault that plan either. Maybe we'd have passed them off the park with 4-2-3-1 including Sancho and Grealish like most fans wanted, but I doubt it 

The thing with this is that obviously England scored a goal (although a better right back deals with that no problems) but that was the only shot they had in the entire first half. The wing backs were finding space but for the most part with not many forward players on the pitch there wasn't a right lot of end product, I thought the only really threatening looking moments were when Sterling got running with the ball.

We definitely weren't going to pass Italy off the park in any formation though :D

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Just now, Wiggins Top Boys said:

Nobody ever does that about England or Millwall fans so we're all good there :thup:

Are you actually arguing that two wrongs make a right here? :D "They do it so I will too" is pretty immature. If anything I would have thought your perspective would make you less eager to generalise, seeing as it pains you so much :D 

And you don't need to tell me about Millwall fans - my mum's entire family were and are Millwall ;) 

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Just now, eenie said:

Are you actually arguing that two wrongs make a right here? :D "They do it so I will too" is pretty immature. If anything I would have thought your perspective would make you less eager to generalise, seeing as it pains you so much :D 

And you don't need to tell me about Millwall fans - my mum's entire family were and are Millwall ;) 

I'm only joking, calm it. Your mum's entire family sound scummy. And trust me I would know ;)

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48 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I mean seriously. We were two kicks away from winning the tournament against a team that are unbeaten in two years or something.

Yes he is defensive minded, but a Sven or a Steve McClaren would have shoehorned Grealish and Foden and Mount and Rashford and Sancho into the same starting eleven. Not played with any balance in the side and not gone with Phillips or Rice or an extra defender for fear of leaving out a big name and being criticised by the media. I know which I prefer and I know which would have been nailed on for another R16 exit.

Southgate could have been a bit braver last night, switched things around quicker or chosen different penalty takers. The rest of the tournament he has been absolutely spot on.

What's he been spot on about?

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11 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

 

Noone was a bottle job last night except for Southgate.
His approach to the game was awful, especially after the early goal.
 

Absolutely not. Once again, using hindsight to make out that Southgate did everything wrong and that you would have done better.

I absolutely disagree with much of what he did, but who's to say that if he set up differently, we wouldn't have been absolutely torn a new one by Chiesa, Immobile and Insigne? We will never know whether he bottled it. We will never know if he actually did well to stay in the game.

He reached the final of a major tournament for only the second time in the history of this country. Throwing out insults left and right as if he did terribly, when in reality he's anything but a bottle job.

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12 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

My main issue, and maybe only real issue with Southgate is that I don't think he's great at using subs. Given the major depth, that's something we need to learn from. But if you'd told me at the beginning of the tournament we'd lose to Italy on penalties in the final I'd have considered that a great tournament. Still hurts mind. But it's no end of an era. Plenty more to come. 

But yeah can't get on board with his easy assertions after the fact

Pretty much as I see it too :thup:

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Southgate got it absolutely spot on at the start of the game. Italy couldn’t handle the wing backs. Tripper had the freedom of the right hand side. It’s just such a shame we went into our shells and our 3 at the back became a flat 5.

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10 minutes ago, foolsgold said:

I absolutely disagree with much of what he did, but who's to say that if he set up differently, we wouldn't have been absolutely torn a new one by Chiesa, Immobile and Insigne? We will never know whether he bottled it. We will never know if he actually did well to stay in the game.

Then why not field one more CB right away after you scored?

Wrote about 3 man defense setup as soon as the news got out and that it's useless against Italy, so it wasn't all hindsight.

  

Just now, Smallen said:

Southgate got it absolutely spot on at the start of the game. Italy couldn’t handle the wing backs. Tripper had the freedom of the right hand side. It’s just such a shame we went into our shells and our 3 at the back became a flat 5.

You were missing a midfielder who can keep the ball and push the transition.

Rice did well, but he's not that player.

Same thing happened in 2018 semi-final.

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1 minute ago, Divinity said:

So many positives to take from this tournament and the English still turn to their favourite pastime: Who can be blamed for this?

I follow several teams and I can testify that in Holland, Spain and Germany, the blame game is also in full force. Not an England special ^^

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2 minutes ago, Citizen Kane said:

I'm in the gunman camp, I'm not really an England fan either way but I feel more could have been done.

Strange tournament overall 

I'm the same but I don't agree with Southgate being a "bottle job" because he isn't, he's just got England to their first major final in 55 years

England have the players, they have a manager they all love but I don't think he's the right guy to get them over the line.  Problem is, if you change it, you can mess things up with a manager that players don't like.  I feel England are untapped potential that might never get realised.  Wasn't going to happen but when England went 1-0 up, they should have went for Italy's throat and tried to kill it.  Italy were on the ropes for at least 20 minutes of that game and Kane was one of the reasons for that, spraying balls about

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25 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Those games are way different. Italy conceded 10 minutes before the end.

Sure, Italy got an equaliser 13 whole minutes earlier than Spain, and it was 0-0 rather than 1-0 for most of the time Italy sat back and soaked up pressure in the semi. Massive! :rolleyes:

Can't be bothered to dig up your posts slating Mancini for that game, just find it hilarious that you've put that out of your mind to claim "they never stopped trying to score and put the game away, no matter who they play against"

IIRC they only managed a single shot against us in the last 45 mins of the game, and we all know who your trademark post about managerial bottling would have been directed against if we'd put our penalties away...

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2 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

You were missing a midfielder who can keep the ball and push the transition.

Rice did well, but he's not that player.

Same thing happened in 2018 semi-final.

England are missing Billy Gilmour basically!  ;)

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Just now, TM said:

I'm the same but I don't agree with Southgate being a "bottle job" because he isn't, he's just got England to their first major final in 55 years

England have the players, they have a manager they all love but I don't think he's the right guy to get them over the line.  Problem is, if you change it, you can mess things up with a manager that players don't like.  I feel England are untapped potential that might never get realised.  Wasn't going to happen but when England went 1-0 up, they should have went for Italy's throat and tried to kill it.  Italy were on the ropes for at least 20 minutes of that game and Kane was one of the reasons for that, spraying balls about

The suggestion I would make is bringing in a coach who will get in Southgate's ear and challenge him to be braver with his decisions. He's got some great coaches on his team but none that will actually challenge his decisions and push him, filling in where Gareth is lacking. We've seen that he listens to his coaching staff but they all seem to have the same problem.

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4 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

You were missing a midfielder who can keep the ball and push the transition.

Rice did well, but he's not that player.

Same thing happened in 2018 semi-final.

it's something I think England have always had problems with, I remember Pirlo controlling the 2012 QF against England

Philips probably should have came off, not Rice

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1 minute ago, TM said:

I'm the same but I don't agree with Southgate being a "bottle job" because he isn't, he's just got England to their first major final in 55 years

England have the players, they have a manager they all love but I don't think he's the right guy to get them over the line.  Problem is, if you change it, you can mess things up with a manager that players don't like.  I feel England are untapped potential that might never get realised.  Wasn't going to happen but when England went 1-0 up, they should have went for Italy's throat and tried to kill it.  Italy were on the ropes for at least 20 minutes of that game and Kane was one of the reasons for that, spraying balls about

Yep, this whole debate about grealish sancho Foden saka...etc just feels there's a missing 'flairs about England from what they could be. 

He's got some players playing well but he's almost the wise man of the hill, been through alot and is a nice guy but where is the cut throat penetrative play. 

 

Re kane yes it's frustrating his style,  it's ok if you have an inside forward that can come inside when kane is deep and play as a legit striker but England don't really have that. 

Lots of players in the same position but not used as I'd hope

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5 minutes ago, Citizen Kane said:

Yep, this whole debate about grealish sancho Foden saka...etc just feels there's a missing 'flairs about England from what they could be. 

He's got some players playing well but he's almost the wise man of the hill, been through alot and is a nice guy but where is the cut throat penetrative play. 

 

Re kane yes it's frustrating his style,  it's ok if you have an inside forward that can come inside when kane is deep and play as a legit striker but England don't really have that. 

Lots of players in the same position but not used as I'd hope

England have that in Rashford, which is why it was a surprise he didn't come on much earlier

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1 hour ago, Wiggins Top Boys said:

My wife is English with a Scottish parent and brought up in Scotland. She's always told me she hated growing up here and was made to never feel welcome. We have friends and family that quite frankly have taken friendly rivalry and shown themselves up as people full of bile and hatred towards the English. Yesterday my 3 year old daughter was even receiving comments for wearing her England shirt out in town.

This is not the thread to discuss my entire personal circumstances just to justify what I said. But I don't want my children to experience the same as what my wife did and yesterday was a nasty insight into that. So you can laugh all you like. I love Scotland and a lot of the people here but many, including people that are supposed to be my friend have showed themselves up massively and I am embarrassed for them.

 

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Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

England have that in Rashford, which is why it was a surprise he didn't come on much earlier

I do think that Southgate is very conservative with his attacking options, and this is most noticeable with his subs. I totally get building success on a solid platform but sometimes you have to press the advantage and one of England's main strengths is their attacking players. But maybe it's that link between defence and attack that's the problem area - when Kane is having to drop back into midfield to spray it around then something isn't quite right. He's a top quality player but surely he's there as the focal point of the attack?

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1 minute ago, eenie said:

I do think that Southgate is very conservative with his attacking options, and this is most noticeable with his subs. I totally get building success on a solid platform but sometimes you have to press the advantage and one of England's main strengths is their attacking players. But maybe it's that link between defence and attack that's the problem area - when Kane is having to drop back into midfield to spray it around then something isn't quite right. He's a top quality player but surely he's there as the focal point of the attack?

It goes two ways I think. If Kane drops deep then you should be playing Rashford more often. It's also why Sterling is just so vital. Or you switch the other way with more aggressive centre mids. When that link disappear second half either we need Rashford on for Mount, or we need to change the midfield a bit and get Kane further up the pitch

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20 minutes ago, Divinity said:

So many positives to take from this tournament and the English still turn to their favourite pastime: Who can be blamed for this?

This.

 

I mean like ffs, England's best performance at a finals since they last won one and the usual "hang the manager/players" attitude is out in full force.

 

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7 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

England have that in Rashford, which is why it was a surprise he didn't come on much earlier

Thing is, the only obvious player for Rashford to replace was Sterling, and after this tournament you can understand why the manager was reluctant to do that

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1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

It goes two ways I think. If Kane drops deep then you should be playing Rashford more often. It's also why Sterling is just so vital. Or you switch the other way with more aggressive centre mids. When that link disappear second half either we need Rashford on for Mount, or we need to change the midfield a bit and get Kane further up the pitch

Just needs a bit of tweak to the balance of the side - which is really one of the main purposes of making subs, isn't it?

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1 minute ago, enigmatic said:

Thing is, the only obvious player for Rashford to replace was Sterling, and after this tournament you can understand why the manager was reluctant to do that

Mount was definitely the obvious one early second half for me. Wasn't in the game really at all

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1 minute ago, eenie said:

Just needs a bit of tweak to the balance of the side - which is really one of the main purposes of making subs, isn't it?

Yeah, making the most of fine margins. Still, as I said, if you'd told me we lose on pens in the final before the tournament, I'd have taken that as a great tournament. And this squad is on an upwards curve. Roll on 2022

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2 minutes ago, Cilldara_2000 said:

This.

 

I mean like ffs, England's best performance at a finals since they last won one and the usual "hang the manager/players" attitude is out in full force.

 

I think it's just football fans really? we all love to analyse things to figure out where it went wrong and where it went right?

even if England had won last night, I'm sure there would still be some saying "there was things we did wrong though" :D could probably say it's "sports fans" rather than football ones, it's the same with NBA, NFL and other sports, you want to delve into the subject to get more information out of it and football nowadays has so many stats you can take out of it

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2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Mount was definitely the obvious one early second half for me. Wasn't in the game really at all

Mount does loads of defensive work and keeps the ball better under pressure though. Rashford definitely more of a threat on the counter, but you can understand why at 1-0 when Italy have loads of possession but England are really closing down shooting and crossing opportunities well and just need to hold onto the ball better the attacking substitution isn't the obvious one

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Just now, enigmatic said:

Mount does loads of defensive work and keeps the ball better under pressure though. Rashford definitely more of a threat on the counter, but you can understand why at 1-0 when Italy have loads of possession but England are really closing down shooting and crossing opportunities well and just need to hold onto the ball better the attacking substitution isn't the obvious one

Aye, but we were under pressure because we didn't have an outlet and the ball just kept coming back, needed that outball I felt

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1 hour ago, foolsgold said:

**** me Gunman your posts are always absolutely bizarre, writing with the benefit of hindsight as if choices in the first place were completely obvious and as if you would have done it perfectly every time. Everyone is a 'bottle job' and every player who isn't absolutely world class is 'awful'. Armchair football fans at their worst. You expect every game to finish 5-0 to the best team and anything less is crap. If coaching was this easy then why aren't you in charge somewhere?

Southgate is not without criticism, far from it, but calling him a coward and this and that... Opinions would have been totally different if the 50:50 lottery had gone the other way and we had won the thing. When it is on a knife edge as fine as that, coming out and saying he is a coward, a loser and and an awful manager when the absolute opposite would have been said about him if luck had gone the other way only shows that the overly harsh criticism of him is totally invalid.

Spot on, absolute weirdo.

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Watching England with attacking talent they have to sit with full team behind the ball and 5 defenders for the majority of the game was chronic to watch.

 

Deserved to get beat, England should be going toe to toe with the talent they have.

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3 minutes ago, aggressive minor said:

Spot on

The only issue I have with it is that the biggest culprits aren't actually English. I've barely seen any England supporters blaming anyone, even the manager. The majority of it has been "well, it was a great tournament, could have handled the final better but overall positive". Gunman has been the only one to really try to blame people and he's obviously not being genuine about it, he's just having a WUM. 

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12 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

The only issue I have with it is that the biggest culprits aren't actually English. I've barely seen any England supporters blaming anyone, even the manager. The majority of it has been "well, it was a great tournament, could have handled the final better but overall positive". Gunman has been the only one to really try to blame people and he's obviously not being genuine about it, he's just having a WUM. 

You honestly believe that because someone criticised England that it must be a windup?

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7 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

You honestly believe that because someone criticised England that it must be a windup?

Have you read Gunman's post before this tournament? Surprised he hasn't blamed Agnelli or Juve yet.

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