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Match 51 THE FINAL: Italy vs England - 8pm Sunday BBC1 AND ITV1 LIVE FROM WEMBLEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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14 minutes ago, av3ry said:

Think Italy will go on to break the unbeaten record now. Bulgaria and Switzerland next two games? Easy.

England got to raise themselves now for a home game against, er, Andorra. At least we can look forward to another pointless argument about pre-qualifying. It’s not all doom and gloom.

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8 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

It wasn’t the type of game where you expected him to be pushed up firing in loads of shots. But in the earlier games he was dropped back in midfield and spraying passes around and setting the runners off down the flanks. Didn’t see much of that either. Wouldn't single him out though, looked like one game too far for a few of them once we were ceding possession over and over.

I definitely wouldn't criticise Kane on an individual level, he can only do so much within the system. But if you have one of Europe's leading goal scorers in your team, and he doesn't have a single shot on goal in 135 minutes of play. Well, I think we've let an opportunity slip past.

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3 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

It wasn’t the type of game where you expected him to be pushed up firing in loads of shots. But in the earlier games he was dropped back in midfield and spraying passes around and setting the runners off down the flanks. Didn’t see much of that either. Wouldn't single him out though, looked like one game too far for a few of them once we were ceding possession over and over. 

You do wonder what might have happened if we hadn’t scored early and if it could have played out more like the Germany game where we weren’t protecting a lead and inviting them on to us quite so much.

Our goal came from him literally doing just that.

Agree that the goal probably didn't help in many ways though and once you get into the rhythm of sitting back and soaking up pressure it's hard to then turn it around and start playing again.

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22 minutes ago, av3ry said:

Btw, I wanted Pickford to take the 5th. He was so pumped up I bet he puts it in the opposite corner to Maguire.

Yes, would have taken Donnarumma into the back of the net with the ball... :D

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Thought that Italy deserved their win. The beginning of the match was definitely for England, but the goal came too early. But the more the match progressed, you could feel it turn more and more in the favor of Italy. Subs on English side didn't really made a difference either, especially for the attacking players it is quite hard when your team doesn't have much of the ball. And letting Sancho and Rashford take a penalty without them having touched a ball at all during the game was a bit of a questionable decision either. Same with letting take Saka a penalty at such a crucial moment in the game. At such moments you want your best and especially a bit more experienced players to take one.  Of course props to Saka for stepping up though, obviously he is not to blame for the loss in any way. 

Overall England had a good tournament seen how close they came to winning it, but purely seen the football there are much points that can be improved. Of course you can decide to play a bit more defensive in some matches, but I felt England took that a bit too far. Looking at the whole squad, the best players are attacking and creative players, not defensive players. It is from that perspective quite strange that players like Rashford and Sancho played such a small role in the whole tournament. And seen the map posted by Coulthard's Jaw a few post earlier concerning Kane's involvement, that doesn't look good either. When you have one of the best strikers in the world, but the only place he gets the ball is outside the box, you're doing something wrong. 

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Turns out Baptista was right about Jack :D I thought he was just chatting nonsense.

 

Edit: on the goal too early thing, do we think we'd have really had a go at 0-0? I'm sceptical.

Edited by The_jagster
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One thing I hadn't realised before the game was just how light England were with regular penalty takers. That 96 team had four players who were first choice takers and one(Platt) who had been for many years prior.

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11 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

Edit: on the goal too early thing, do we think we'd have really had a go at 0-0? I'm sceptical.

It’s not about tearing at them all game whilever it’s level, it’s about keeping it at 0-0 and then putting yourself in a position to win in the last 20-25 minutes. Played the Germany game like this and it worked to perfection.

When you spend an hour sitting on a 1-0 lead it’s really really hard to then get any forward momentum back once you concede the equaliser.

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10 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

One thing I hadn't realised before the game was just how light England were with regular penalty takers. That 96 team had four players who were first choice takers and one(Platt) who had been for many years prior.

It makes prioritising penalties ahead of making the best in game subs a strange decision.

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2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

It’s not about tearing at them all game whilever it’s level, it’s about keeping it at 0-0 and then putting yourself in a position to win in the last 20-25 minutes. Played the Germany game like this and it worked to perfection.

When you spend an hour sitting on a 1-0 lead it’s really really hard to then get any forward momentum back once you concede the equaliser.

What are you talking about? Are you serously suggesting you'd have a better chance of winning at 0-0 after 70 mins rather than 1-0 up?

I think reality wants a word.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Nad said:

What are you talking about? Are you serously suggesting you'd have a better chance of winning at 0-0 after 70 mins rather than 1-0 up?

I think reality wants a word.

I kinda get what Rob means, the Germany match played out perfectly for our system. But at the same time, if you're 1-0 up after 2 minutes thats not a bad start, a second goal soon after basically kills the match. The fact we don't know how to play after scoring an early goal is a weird quirk.

Edited by Coulthard's Jaw
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11 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

It’s not about tearing at them all game whilever it’s level, it’s about keeping it at 0-0 and then putting yourself in a position to win in the last 20-25 minutes. Played the Germany game like this and it worked to perfection.

When you spend an hour sitting on a 1-0 lead it’s really really hard to then get any forward momentum back once you concede the equaliser.

I'm not saying that, I think we hold onto the 0-0 and still drop deep. We happened to score against Germany from Sterling running past their midfield, on another day we concede from Werner's chance or a corner. Germany isn't a brilliant blueprint.

Edit: and I think we still drop deep against Italy at 0-0 because their midfield is technically better. There were interchanges in our third from Verratti/Insigne that just don't happen with our midfield.

Edited by The_jagster
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Just now, Nad said:

What are you talking about? Are you serously suggesting you'd have a better chance of winning at 0-0 after 70 mins rather than 1-0 up?

I think reality wants a word.

It was 1-1 after 70 minutes and any aggressive forward play from England was a distant memory because by that point we had already been defending for so long.

At half time we were 1-0 up. Yes we had the lead but we were already starting to pack our own box and invite wave after wave of Italy pressure. Would much rather have had it still 0-0 at half time with the game swinging back and forth and England with another gear to go up in the last 20 minutes. I know it sounds ridiculous but in these tight games being 0-0 at half time is a better score for us than a 1-0 lead.

Score early against a side like Ukraine and you’ve got enough to go and kill them off with a second goal. Against an Italy or a Germany your game plan goes out the window and you end up digging in all game and protecting what you’ve got.

Look at England’s record when we score early in these big games and it is disastrous. Germany 96, Argentina 98, Portugal 2000, Brazil 2002, France 2004, Portugal 2004, USA 2010, Iceland 2016, Croatia 2018, Italy 2020.

There can’t be another team that has thrown away so many big tournament matches from winning positions.

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7 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Look at England’s record when we score early in these big games and it is disastrous. Germany 96, Argentina 98, Portugal 2000, Brazil 2002, France 2004, Portugal 2004, USA 2010, Iceland 2016, Croatia 2018, Italy 2020.

Grim.

Argentina 2002 the only time its ever worked in a big game, actually played properly with decent counter attacks. The lack of counter attacking last night was infuriating.

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Not sure why everyone is saying Southgate will learn from this

Literally the same pragmatic tactics from game 1 this tournament. Read every match thread and you have the same comments and complaints.

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2 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Grim.

Argentina 2002 the only time its ever worked in a big game, actually played properly with decent counter attacks. The lack of counter attacking last night was infuriating.

We didn't even waste any counters, there just weren't any at all.

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10 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

 

Look at England’s record when we score early in these big games and it is disastrous. Germany 96, Argentina 98, Portugal 2000, Brazil 2002, France 2004, Portugal 2004, USA 2010, Iceland 2016, Croatia 2018, Italy 2020.

 

2014: go behind twice to Italy, go behind twice to Uruguay

2012: grimly hold on for pens against Italy. 1-1 against France from 39 mins onwards having led for 9 minutes and have 31% possession in the last half hour

2010: concede early and get done on the counter when behind against Germany

We are absolutely terrible in big games when we haven't taken an early lead too.

Edited by The_jagster
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5 minutes ago, VamPook said:

Not sure why everyone is saying Southgate will learn from this

Literally the same pragmatic tactics from game 1 this tournament. Read every match thread and you have the same comments and complaints.

I never understood why everyone was calling him brave in the previous games. I said it before the final, England got there in spite of Southgate.

Yeh he's done good around the perception of the team and that's big, but football wise he was too negative. The momentum was with Italy but he was too scared to do anything to change that. 

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Also, Southgate saying "I take responsibility for choosing the penalty takers" is besides the point.

How about not playing for penalties in the first place Gareth? That's your responsibility too. You had over an hour of the game where you had a plethora of options to change the game and try to win it without penalties.

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5 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

I'm not saying that, I think we hold onto the 0-0 and still drop deep. We happened to score against Germany from Sterling running past their midfield, on another day we concede from Werner's chance or a corner. Germany isn't a brilliant blueprint.

Edit: and I think we still drop deep against Italy at 0-0 because their midfield is technically better. There were interchanges in our third from Verratti/Insigne that just don't happen with our midfield.

I also think if we don't score the early goal, Italy don't have 20 minutes of looking weirdly shapeless and start playing keep-ball a lot earlier. It's not like our record of scoring second or in penalties after 0-0s is anything special

 

The only difference with it being 0-0 after 60ish minutes is it's a lot more tempting to make attacking subs, but not sure Gareth (or most managers tbh) was likely to do that anyway

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, VamPook said:

Not sure why everyone is saying Southgate will learn from this

Literally the same pragmatic tactics from game 1 this tournament. Read every match thread and you have the same comments and complaints.

I would say it goes back to the World Cup. After that people said Southgate would learn and come back stronger but a lot of the same issues occurred here such as sticking with certain players, not reacting to what was happening on the pitch (although he was somewhat better on this tbf) and not making subs until it’s too late. 

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1 hour ago, Pedwar Pump said:

Channeling Kevin Pressman, who incidentally scored the best penalty i've ever seen in a shootout aginst Wolves

I've seen a couple of excellent pens taken by goalies. Artur Boruc scored a brilliant penalty for Celtic in an epic shootout with Dundee United (think it was 11-10 on pens or something crazy, every single player took one). And obviously Ricardo scored a great pen for Portugal in 2004: took off his gloves to save Vassell's penalty then smashed the winner past James.

 

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10 hours ago, Wiggins Top Boys said:

I mean it helped me make the decision that my kids are not going to grow up here, so there's that.

Great stuff. You're always posting about how much you hate Scotland so it's probably for the best.

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23 minutes ago, Wiggins Top Boys said:

Southgate bottled it really. Does he really have the instinct to lead this team to win a tournament? He just doesn't seem like a winner to me.

He got beat by the best team in world football right now in a penalty shoot out, and he somehow bottled it? Would a sprinter get told he bottled it because lost to Usain Bolt after being beaten in the 100 metres with a dip at the line?

I see these words Bottler and Coward being thrown around regarding Southgate and it makes me sick. Did he make some wrong decisions? Yes he did, but he also made a lot of right ones too. He also stood up to racists in the country and took responsibility for his decisions (not all managers have the guts to do that - shout out to Jose and Roy Hodgson) so calling him a coward and a bottler is just not right.

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28 minutes ago, Wiggins Top Boys said:

Southgate bottled it really. Does he really have the instinct to lead this team to win a tournament? He just doesn't seem like a winner to me.

Mate he was a couple of penalties away from winning the ****ing thing!

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Throughout the tournament Southgate made a number of calls that made me go 'uhhhh' but he got them right. Looked like he was going to get it right again yesterday for a while too, with Trippier making hay down that flank.

But unfortunately he didn't seem to be able to do anything to turn the tide last night; I still don't really know what Italy changed but they were on top for most of the match and we didn't cope. And I think Southgate made a mistake bringing Rashford and Sancho on so late, they barely touched the ball before having to take the penalty.

I also wonder whether having the big, pumped crowd for this one ended up actually being a hindrance rather than a help. I was in a loud, echoey pub where I couldn't hear much so maybe I'm wrong on this, but it felt like the crowd was extremely tense and it felt like that affected the players.

Anyway, I like Southgate and I like this team. Bit of a bummer last night but they should be proud of what they achieved and I'm trying to think of the happy moments of finally beating Germany, blowing Ukraine away, reaching a final.

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7 minutes ago, titchuk said:

I also wonder whether having the big, pumped crowd for this one ended up actually being a hindrance rather than a help. I was in a loud, echoey pub where I couldn't hear much so maybe I'm wrong on this, but it felt like the crowd was extremely tense and it felt like that affected the players.

Would be interesting to hear what people at the game think, but on TV I thought the atmosphere sounded terrible. 

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1 ora fa, Bootador ha scritto:

If you're referring to my post from days ago, you misread the context. It wasn't arrogance, I'm as laid back about England as they come. Our pace had the potential to cause you huge problems, ultimately it didn't. Wasn't hugely surprising given the manager, but I'm hardly in position to be overly critical given it's this approach that took us to the final (even if it's not to my taste).

Congratulations, I have no problem with Italy :thup:

It's not that, but I learnt to be very cautious about football.

There was too much confidence around, but last night England did nothing but very few to deserve the trophy. Once again you crashed on the first top team you played against on your path. It happened in Russia, it happened yesterday.

I know my country, I know my people and ultimately I know Italian national team. The last three major trophies have been won when we were massively considered underdogs. That's, we do our best when nobody but ourselves believe in us 

England team is young and full of resources and I can easily see them to get some achievements along with Spain, but I'd reconsider the position of Southgate at this point as he proved to not be consistent in big games in my opinion.

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1 minute ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Would be interesting to hear what people at the game think, but on TV I thought the atmosphere sounded terrible. 

I'm just listening to a guy on 5live and it sounds absolutely horrendous  :(

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1 minute ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Would be interesting to hear what people at the game think, but on TV I thought the atmosphere sounded terrible. 

Same, Carl Anka on TFS said good until HT, poor afterwards.

And apparently lots of complaints from people saying I paid £££££ for my ticket, get these chancers out for those that broke into Wembley.

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2 minutes ago, Wiggins Top Boys said:

I love Scotland. Some of the people are sad and bitter though.

Same with England, mate. But you're the one who apparently can't countenance bringing up your kids here. Unfortunate, because it's actually a great place to raise kids. There are arseholes everywhere, sadly.

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10 minutes ago, jep said:

He got beat by the best team in world football right now in a penalty shoot out, and he somehow bottled it? Would a sprinter get told he bottled it because lost to Usain Bolt after being beaten in the 100 metres with a dip at the line?

I see these words Bottler and Coward being thrown around regarding Southgate and it makes me sick. Did he make some wrong decisions? Yes he did, but he also made a lot of right ones too. He also stood up to racists in the country and took responsibility for his decisions (not all managers have the guts to do that - shout out to Jose and Roy Hodgson) so calling him a coward and a bottler is just not right.

I am talking specifically about his decisions in the final. He bottled them and got it all wrong.

Made some great decisions before that and in the tournament in general and the way he's handled things off the pitch, but specifically for that game. Pretty poor

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As usual.  It is the well behaved, genuine fans that have suffered.  The policing question is definitely one that should be answered.

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We probably should have a separate thread for what happened, but people breaking in and being able to watch the match is just insane. Worst security failure at a major sporting event for a long time.

 

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17 minutes ago, Andrew_ said:

England got there in spite of Southgate. Yeh he's done good around the perception of the team and that's big, but football wise he was too negative. 

I mean seriously. We were two kicks away from winning the tournament against a team that are unbeaten in two years or something.

Yes he is defensive minded, but a Sven or a Steve McClaren would have shoehorned Grealish and Foden and Mount and Rashford and Sancho into the same starting eleven. Not played with any balance in the side and not gone with Phillips or Rice or an extra defender for fear of leaving out a big name and being criticised by the media. I know which I prefer and I know which would have been nailed on for another R16 exit.

Southgate could have been a bit braver last night, switched things around quicker or chosen different penalty takers. The rest of the tournament he has been absolutely spot on.

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Just now, Coulthard's Jaw said:

We probably should have a separate thread for what happened, but people breaking in and being able to watch the match is just insane. Worst security failure at a major sporting event for a long time.

 

Yeah, it's just ridiculous if these people were allowed to remain inside the stadium. Mind you, it's not like there would be anywhere near enough stewards or security to find and eject them, so the damage was done when they were allowed to push in in the first place. Shameful behaviour though.

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5 minutes ago, eenie said:

Same with England, mate. But you're the one who apparently can't countenance bringing up your kids here. Unfortunate, because it's actually a great place to raise kids. There are arseholes everywhere, sadly.

Not bringing up kids here :lol:.

Made my ****ing day that did.

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4 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

2014: go behind twice to Italy, go behind twice to Uruguay

2012: grimly hold on for pens against Italy. 1-1 against France from 39 mins onwards having led for 9 minutes and have 31% possession in the last half hour

2010: concede early and get done on the counter when behind against Germany

We are absolutely terrible in big games when we haven't taken an early lead too.

This.  More importantly, apart from Denmark I can't remember any significant wins where we came from behind. Won more scoring early, and most of the ones we didn't win are penalties at, which we've been truly atrocious in.

 

Just now, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Would be interesting to hear what people at the game think, but on TV I thought the atmosphere sounded terrible. 

I think it was heavily filtered. No audible anthem or knee boos and not a sound in the background at half time

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3 minutes ago, Tikka Mezzala said:

 

Not bringing up kids here :lol:.

Made my ****ing day that did.

My wife is English with a Scottish parent and brought up in Scotland. She's always told me she hated growing up here and was made to never feel welcome. We have friends and family that quite frankly have taken friendly rivalry and shown themselves up as people full of bile and hatred towards the English. Yesterday my 3 year old daughter was even receiving comments for wearing her England shirt out in town.

This is not the thread to discuss my entire personal circumstances just to justify what I said. But I don't want my children to experience the same as what my wife did and yesterday was a nasty insight into that. So you can laugh all you like. I love Scotland and a lot of the people here but many, including people that are supposed to be my friend have showed themselves up massively and I am embarrassed for them.

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5 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Southgate could have been a bit braver last night, switched things around quicker or chosen different penalty takers. The rest of the tournament he has been absolutely spot on.

And let's be honest, most of us including me didn't want to see wingbacks, but they combined for our opening goal and Italy had no idea how to deal with them at the start, so difficult to fault that plan either. Maybe we'd have passed them off the park with 4-2-3-1 including Sancho and Grealish like most fans wanted, but I doubt it 

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