Match 51 THE FINAL: Italy vs England - 8pm Sunday BBC1 AND ITV1 LIVE FROM WEMBLEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[oche balboa]

3 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

 

That's the most since the 90s?

[Astafjevs]

'game of their lives' 

Enigmatic must have been watching a different game as well. 

[enigmatic]

2 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

'game of their lives' 

Enigmatic must have been watching a different game as well. 

I didn't use that phrase...

[B-Real]

I didn't like Italy's antics, but there is no denying they're the deserved champion.

Looking at the entire tournament, they played the best and offensive football. They had the most difficult road to the final. And also in the final last night they had most ball-possession and most shots on target. 

They showed themselves to be a very complete team in terms of teamwork, mental strength and technical ability. So well-played.

[bestbrother]

2 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

'game of their lives' 

Enigmatic must have been watching a different game as well. 

You must have missed the trophy engraver carving 'England Lost' on the trophy

 

[enigmatic]

9 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

 

Some of them were Italian. Or Scottish

[Tikka Mezzala]

14 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I mean they played far far better than us and still only drew and didn’t give Pickford much to do all game. I would have had no issue losing 3-0 to the better team. But they were there for the taking.

It was quite a cagey game. Defences generally on top. Italy controlled the midfield. But both teams could have stepped it up a few gears in an attacking sense. 

I don't know about "there for the taking", though. Italy might have preferred a more open England approach. 

[Christmas]

22 minutes ago, Gizzy said:

Southgate made one mistake but unfortunately he made it over and over and it was playing Saka.

He looked like a lost boy against Germany and I couldn't believe he brought him on before Rashford, Sancho or Grealish. And again he looked like some kid playing with real men, had no right being on the pitch. And then taking the last pen was unbelievable.

Rashford and Sancho should've been on a lot earlier too. Your first touch in a final shouldn't be a penalty. 

I agree Saka had a poor game, much as I very very like him. 

Although I agree about rashford and Sancho. Rashford in particular was stripped and ready about 5 mins before but refs wouldn't let the change when e.g an out Italy thrown in. I actually wondered a bit if Italy would deliberately pass ball only in defence to end game without subs but eventually counter attack and got corner. Whether even that would be enough time though. Probably not. 

[Astafjevs]

5 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

I didn't use that phrase...

I know you didn't. Was referring to two different posts

[Wigmore]

I think, contrary to a lot of the opinions I've seen on here, England were really good again. Had the form team of the tournament bang in trouble for most of the first half - could've scored 2 or 3 on another day. And then stood up reasonably well to them finding their feet in the second half. That said, a draw over the 120 mins was probably about fair.

I do however think that the penalty strategy was a ****ing shambles - Gareth will rightly get stick for it. Perhaps excepting Rashford who is something of a PK specialist, bringing on players specifically to take a pen never sits well with me - increases the pressure on those players on top of what is already the most pressured moment of their careers.

And Saka on the 5th? What is that all about! I'd have almost every player on the pitch for us taking that pen ahead of Saka - which is no slight on Saka who I thought was excellent in this tournament - he's a teenager ffs. Even if he's put his hand up to take one, Gareth's GOT to be veto-ing it. God I hope he bounces back well from it.

[enigmatic]

5 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

I know you didn't. Was referring to two different posts

Not even sure what you're disagreeing with since I'm making the precise opposite point: Italy did just enough with their masses of possession to deserve an equaliser after a very disappointing first half and then didn't really go for it afterwards despite England looking leggy

Edited July 12, 2021 by enigmatic

[forameuss]

8 minutes ago, Tikka Mezzala said:

It was quite a cagey game. Defences generally on top. Italy controlled the midfield. But both teams could have stepped it up a few gears in an attacking sense. 

I don't know about "there for the taking", though. Italy might have preferred a more open England approach. 

In the first half they were.  They looked like a weans team on the edge of tears, struggling to string together short passes.  And then, bafflingly, instead of keeping the foot on the throat and trying to get a second - which likely would have all but killed off the game - they decided to spend the next half an hour or so slowly letting Italy back into the game.  

Italy were largely dreadful, but England didn't take advantage.

[Smallen]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

In the first half they were.  They looked like a weans team on the edge of tears, struggling to string together short passes.  And then, bafflingly, instead of keeping the foot on the throat and trying to get a second - which likely would have all but killed off the game - they decided to spend the next half an hour or so slowly letting Italy back into the game.  

Italy were largely dreadful, but England didn't take advantage.

This is it.

Italy didn’t do anything special. We just backed off them and gave them too much respect, which is so baffling considering we were all over them in the first 30 minutes. Then in the second half we didn’t make the changes required to take the initiative back. Mason Mount was the least effective player on the field and we kept him on for 100 minutes because…???

[johnhughthom]

27 minutes ago, mrw072 said:

Southgate reminds me of an NFL coach - very methodical and organised and very often risk averse.  I thought Italy were there for the taking in the 1st half - they could barely string two passes together.  He needs to learn how to kill good teams off I think.

I think when Italy came out for the 2nd half they were much improved and controlled things.  I think you're right when you say Mancini made good tactical choices.

He is an NFL fan and regularly pops up at the Superbowl. I'm pretty sure he has talked about watching NFL coaching sessions and what he has taken from that to soccer. 

[av3ry]

Think Italy will go on to break the unbeaten record now. Bulgaria and Switzerland next two games? Easy.

[av3ry]

Btw, I wanted Pickford to take the 5th. He was so pumped up I bet he puts it in the opposite corner to Maguire.

[Bootador]

47 minutes ago, Federico said:

I just woke up after a weird night and a weird dream.

Has England destroyed us yet?

If you're referring to my post from days ago, you misread the context. It wasn't arrogance, I'm as laid back about England as they come. Our pace had the potential to cause you huge problems, ultimately it didn't. Wasn't hugely surprising given the manager, but I'm hardly in position to be overly critical given it's this approach that took us to the final (even if it's not to my taste).

Congratulations, I have no problem with Italy 

[Pedwar Pump]

2 minutes ago, av3ry said:

Btw, I wanted Pickford to take the 5th. He was so pumped up I bet he puts it in the opposite corner to Maguire.

Channeling Kevin Pressman, who incidentally scored the best penalty i've ever seen in a shootout aginst Wolves

[Federico]

3 minuti fa, av3ry ha scritto:

Think Italy will go on to break the unbeaten record now. Bulgaria and Switzerland next two games? Easy.

Swiss wIll be tough.

They've beaten......

 

 

 

 

FRANCE.

[Tikka Mezzala]

16 minutes ago, forameuss said:

In the first half they were.  They looked like a weans team on the edge of tears, struggling to string together short passes.  And then, bafflingly, instead of keeping the foot on the throat and trying to get a second - which likely would have all but killed off the game - they decided to spend the next half an hour or so slowly letting Italy back into the game.  

Italy were largely dreadful, but England didn't take advantage.

A game of opinions, I suppose.

 

[brett.spurs]

42 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Showed them way too much respect in the middle part of the match. It felt like they played one of the games of their lives to get a 1-1 draw and we just never found the extra gear that we had showed in the other knockout games. Southgate maybe too cautious getting Sancho and Grealish on, but the likes of Sterling and Kane and Saka didn’t turn up.

Wonder how much difference the extra day’s rest made in the end. 

Kane had a good first 30 minutes when England were actually somewhat on the front foot but it's hard for attacking players to turn up when a lot of the game is being played deep inside your own half.

[Rob1981]

1 minute ago, brett.spurs said:

Kane had a good first 30 minutes when England were actually somewhat on the front foot but it's hard for attacking players to turn up when a lot of the game is being played deep inside your own half.

It wasn’t the type of game where you expected him to be pushed up firing in loads of shots. But in the earlier games he was dropped back in midfield and spraying passes around and setting the runners off down the flanks. Didn’t see much of that either. Wouldn't single him out though, looked like one game too far for a few of them once we were ceding possession over and over. 

You do wonder what might have happened if we hadn’t scored early and if it could have played out more like the Germany game where we weren’t protecting a lead and inviting them on to us quite so much.

[Rob1981]

14 minutes ago, av3ry said:

Think Italy will go on to break the unbeaten record now. Bulgaria and Switzerland next two games? Easy.

England got to raise themselves now for a home game against, er, Andorra. At least we can look forward to another pointless argument about pre-qualifying. It’s not all doom and gloom.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

8 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

It wasn’t the type of game where you expected him to be pushed up firing in loads of shots. But in the earlier games he was dropped back in midfield and spraying passes around and setting the runners off down the flanks. Didn’t see much of that either. Wouldn't single him out though, looked like one game too far for a few of them once we were ceding possession over and over.

I definitely wouldn't criticise Kane on an individual level, he can only do so much within the system. But if you have one of Europe's leading goal scorers in your team, and he doesn't have a single shot on goal in 135 minutes of play. Well, I think we've let an opportunity slip past.

[Yuko]

The best team took the trophy home

[VamPook]

So based on the video, you had Pickford going 6th, Philips going 7th and probably Grealish going 8th? 

[brett.spurs]

3 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

It wasn’t the type of game where you expected him to be pushed up firing in loads of shots. But in the earlier games he was dropped back in midfield and spraying passes around and setting the runners off down the flanks. Didn’t see much of that either. Wouldn't single him out though, looked like one game too far for a few of them once we were ceding possession over and over. 

You do wonder what might have happened if we hadn’t scored early and if it could have played out more like the Germany game where we weren’t protecting a lead and inviting them on to us quite so much.

Our goal came from him literally doing just that.

Agree that the goal probably didn't help in many ways though and once you get into the rhythm of sitting back and soaking up pressure it's hard to then turn it around and start playing again.

[arenaross]

 

 

[gibson147]

22 minutes ago, av3ry said:

Btw, I wanted Pickford to take the 5th. He was so pumped up I bet he puts it in the opposite corner to Maguire.

Yes, would have taken Donnarumma into the back of the net with the ball... 

[Rob1981]

Stay classy Jack  

[Cedrik]

Thought that Italy deserved their win. The beginning of the match was definitely for England, but the goal came too early. But the more the match progressed, you could feel it turn more and more in the favor of Italy. Subs on English side didn't really made a difference either, especially for the attacking players it is quite hard when your team doesn't have much of the ball. And letting Sancho and Rashford take a penalty without them having touched a ball at all during the game was a bit of a questionable decision either. Same with letting take Saka a penalty at such a crucial moment in the game. At such moments you want your best and especially a bit more experienced players to take one.  Of course props to Saka for stepping up though, obviously he is not to blame for the loss in any way. 

Overall England had a good tournament seen how close they came to winning it, but purely seen the football there are much points that can be improved. Of course you can decide to play a bit more defensive in some matches, but I felt England took that a bit too far. Looking at the whole squad, the best players are attacking and creative players, not defensive players. It is from that perspective quite strange that players like Rashford and Sancho played such a small role in the whole tournament. And seen the map posted by Coulthard's Jaw a few post earlier concerning Kane's involvement, that doesn't look good either. When you have one of the best strikers in the world, but the only place he gets the ball is outside the box, you're doing something wrong. 

[The_jagster]

Turns out Baptista was right about Jack  I thought he was just chatting nonsense.

 

Edit: on the goal too early thing, do we think we'd have really had a go at 0-0? I'm sceptical.

Edited July 12, 2021 by The_jagster

[SouthCoastRed]

1 hour ago, Rob1981 said:

tbf I did warn everyone  

Don't start being all Negative Nigel now drum beater

[Guest]

One thing I hadn't realised before the game was just how light England were with regular penalty takers. That 96 team had four players who were first choice takers and one(Platt) who had been for many years prior.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

23 minutes ago, arenaross said:

 

 

It's a bit much Saka gets thrown under the bus because Southgate insists on being a weirdo about Grealish.

[Rob1981]

11 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

Edit: on the goal too early thing, do we think we'd have really had a go at 0-0? I'm sceptical.

It’s not about tearing at them all game whilever it’s level, it’s about keeping it at 0-0 and then putting yourself in a position to win in the last 20-25 minutes. Played the Germany game like this and it worked to perfection.

When you spend an hour sitting on a 1-0 lead it’s really really hard to then get any forward momentum back once you concede the equaliser.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

10 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

One thing I hadn't realised before the game was just how light England were with regular penalty takers. That 96 team had four players who were first choice takers and one(Platt) who had been for many years prior.

It makes prioritising penalties ahead of making the best in game subs a strange decision.

[Wiggins Top Boys]

Southgate bottled it really. Does he really have the instinct to lead this team to win a tournament? He just doesn't seem like a winner to me.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Wiggins Top Boys

[Nad]

2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

It’s not about tearing at them all game whilever it’s level, it’s about keeping it at 0-0 and then putting yourself in a position to win in the last 20-25 minutes. Played the Germany game like this and it worked to perfection.

When you spend an hour sitting on a 1-0 lead it’s really really hard to then get any forward momentum back once you concede the equaliser.

What are you talking about? Are you serously suggesting you'd have a better chance of winning at 0-0 after 70 mins rather than 1-0 up?

I think reality wants a word.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

12 minutes ago, Nad said:

What are you talking about? Are you serously suggesting you'd have a better chance of winning at 0-0 after 70 mins rather than 1-0 up?

I think reality wants a word.

I kinda get what Rob means, the Germany match played out perfectly for our system. But at the same time, if you're 1-0 up after 2 minutes thats not a bad start, a second goal soon after basically kills the match. The fact we don't know how to play after scoring an early goal is a weird quirk.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Coulthard's Jaw

[The_jagster]

11 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

It’s not about tearing at them all game whilever it’s level, it’s about keeping it at 0-0 and then putting yourself in a position to win in the last 20-25 minutes. Played the Germany game like this and it worked to perfection.

When you spend an hour sitting on a 1-0 lead it’s really really hard to then get any forward momentum back once you concede the equaliser.

I'm not saying that, I think we hold onto the 0-0 and still drop deep. We happened to score against Germany from Sterling running past their midfield, on another day we concede from Werner's chance or a corner. Germany isn't a brilliant blueprint.

Edit: and I think we still drop deep against Italy at 0-0 because their midfield is technically better. There were interchanges in our third from Verratti/Insigne that just don't happen with our midfield.

Edited July 12, 2021 by The_jagster

[Rob1981]

Just now, Nad said:

What are you talking about? Are you serously suggesting you'd have a better chance of winning at 0-0 after 70 mins rather than 1-0 up?

I think reality wants a word.

It was 1-1 after 70 minutes and any aggressive forward play from England was a distant memory because by that point we had already been defending for so long.

At half time we were 1-0 up. Yes we had the lead but we were already starting to pack our own box and invite wave after wave of Italy pressure. Would much rather have had it still 0-0 at half time with the game swinging back and forth and England with another gear to go up in the last 20 minutes. I know it sounds ridiculous but in these tight games being 0-0 at half time is a better score for us than a 1-0 lead.

Score early against a side like Ukraine and you’ve got enough to go and kill them off with a second goal. Against an Italy or a Germany your game plan goes out the window and you end up digging in all game and protecting what you’ve got.

Look at England’s record when we score early in these big games and it is disastrous. Germany 96, Argentina 98, Portugal 2000, Brazil 2002, France 2004, Portugal 2004, USA 2010, Iceland 2016, Croatia 2018, Italy 2020.

There can’t be another team that has thrown away so many big tournament matches from winning positions.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

7 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Look at England’s record when we score early in these big games and it is disastrous. Germany 96, Argentina 98, Portugal 2000, Brazil 2002, France 2004, Portugal 2004, USA 2010, Iceland 2016, Croatia 2018, Italy 2020.

Grim.

Argentina 2002 the only time its ever worked in a big game, actually played properly with decent counter attacks. The lack of counter attacking last night was infuriating.

[VamPook]

Not sure why everyone is saying Southgate will learn from this

Literally the same pragmatic tactics from game 1 this tournament. Read every match thread and you have the same comments and complaints.

[The_jagster]

2 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Grim.

Argentina 2002 the only time its ever worked in a big game, actually played properly with decent counter attacks. The lack of counter attacking last night was infuriating.

We didn't even waste any counters, there just weren't any at all.

[Bunkerossian]

IMO, if Sancho, Rashford and Grealish are on as substitutes, it makes sense IF you tell the team to blitz a tired opponent.

[The_jagster]

10 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

 

Look at England’s record when we score early in these big games and it is disastrous. Germany 96, Argentina 98, Portugal 2000, Brazil 2002, France 2004, Portugal 2004, USA 2010, Iceland 2016, Croatia 2018, Italy 2020.

 

2014: go behind twice to Italy, go behind twice to Uruguay

2012: grimly hold on for pens against Italy. 1-1 against France from 39 mins onwards having led for 9 minutes and have 31% possession in the last half hour

2010: concede early and get done on the counter when behind against Germany

We are absolutely terrible in big games when we haven't taken an early lead too.

Edited July 12, 2021 by The_jagster

[Andrew_]

5 minutes ago, VamPook said:

Not sure why everyone is saying Southgate will learn from this

Literally the same pragmatic tactics from game 1 this tournament. Read every match thread and you have the same comments and complaints.

I never understood why everyone was calling him brave in the previous games. I said it before the final, England got there in spite of Southgate.

Yeh he's done good around the perception of the team and that's big, but football wise he was too negative. The momentum was with Italy but he was too scared to do anything to change that. 

[Nad]

Also, Southgate saying "I take responsibility for choosing the penalty takers" is besides the point.

How about not playing for penalties in the first place Gareth? That's your responsibility too. You had over an hour of the game where you had a plethora of options to change the game and try to win it without penalties.