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Match 51 THE FINAL: Italy vs England - 8pm Sunday BBC1 AND ITV1 LIVE FROM WEMBLEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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12 minutes ago, RinusFM said:

The penalties were kinda embarrassing, tho. These 3 guys didn't take it serious. Just wanted to give a show to the people out there. Probably they hoped to score and then get fame when England won. Italy did great and took it serious.

This is a proper crazy take, am I missing something or is this real? 

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16 minutes ago, Reggiana said:

The better team won, it wasn't a particularly good final from a footballing point of view but it gradually got better as it went along.

I wouldn't like to take a penalty against Donnarumma, he is massive.

He's saved 35% of pens in his career, not including shootouts.

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10 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Rashford has a much better penalty record than what I expected

He's a good penalty taker. Bringing him on to take one is the right move. Waiting til the dying moments of extra time to bring him and Sancho on to take them is indefensible. I criticized Klopp for doing the same thing with Brewster last year (I think?). They're not in the game, barely warmed up, then thrown into that pressure. 

In the end, results are all that matter, but nothing from this tournament has changed my opinion on Southgate. If anything, it's solidified it. Everything setup for England to win, but he made every step harder than it should have been, and ultimately blew it in the end. 

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Just now, Astafjevs said:

He's saved 35% of pens in his career, not including shootouts.

I'm not sure but that seems like a pretty good record.

He's an exceptional shot stopper, he has the odd time on higher balls where he looks like he misjudges things but that's his only real flaw.

I thought Italy were impressively composed for a team that had gone behind after 2 minutes, comfortably the better team after that.

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4 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

He's saved 35% of pens in his career, not including shootouts.

That's ridiculously good. 

2 minutes ago, XuluBak said:

He's a good penalty taker. Bringing him on to take one is the right move. Waiting til the dying moments of extra time to bring him and Sancho on to take them is indefensible. I criticized Klopp for doing the same thing with Brewster last year (I think?). They're not in the game, barely warmed up, then thrown into that pressure. 

In the end, results are all that matter, but nothing from this tournament has changed my opinion on Southgate. If anything, it's solidified it. Everything setup for England to win, but he made every step harder than it should have been, and ultimately blew it in the end. 

 Not only that, he and Sancho could have changed the game had they been introduced much earlier

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It's worth pointing out Florenzi was brought on for the same reason with 2 minutes left of the game. Its the nature of tournament football. People look too hard for excuses. Rashford and Sancho didn't miss because they were undercooked, they missed because taking penalties in shootouts is hard. Saka missed and he'd played for a big chunk of the game. 

 

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1 minute ago, InigoPatinkin said:

It's worth pointing out Florenzi was brought on for the same reason with 2 minutes left of the game. Its the nature of tournament football. People look too hard for excuses. Rashford and Sancho didn't miss because they were undercooked, they missed because taking penalties in shootouts is hard. Saka missed and he'd played for a big chunk of the game. 

 

Not disagreeing with your point, but Florenzi wasn't in Italy's first 5 pen takers.

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1 minute ago, InigoPatinkin said:

It's worth pointing out Florenzi was brought on for the same reason with 2 minutes left of the game. Its the nature of tournament football. People look too hard for excuses. Rashford and Sancho didn't miss because they were undercooked, they missed because taking penalties in shootouts is hard. Saka missed and he'd played for a big chunk of the game. 

 

Ain't no Bruno Fernandes. 

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2 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Not disagreeing with your point, but Florenzi wasn't in Italy's first 5 pen takers.

No he wasn't, but he was clearly brought on with them in mind and not for any attempt to alter the match in normal time (other than maybe to waste some time). 

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8 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Yeah 35% is great. It's no Diego Alves though.

Is he still active?

I think him and Handanović have the most pens saved and great percentage out of active keepers.

Anything above 30% is ridiculously good. 

Just checked.

Donnarumma 15-44, 34%

Handanović 42-119, 35%

Diego Alves 27-67, 40%

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1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Is he still active?

I think him and Handanović have the most pens saved and great percentage out of active keepers.

Anything above 30% is ridiculously good. 

Just checked.

Donnarumma 15-44, 34%

Handanović 42-119, 35%

Diego Alves 27-67, 40%

Yeah, back in Brazil.

Looking at those stats, what the hell are Inter defenders doing with that many penalties faced? :lol:

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1 minute ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Yeah, back in Brazil.

Looking at those stats, what the hell are Inter defenders doing with that many penalties faced? :lol:

A good number was before he joined, but it was awful at one point. :lol:

He had a streak of 6 saved in 2015 I think.

 

Now I'm trying to find a keeper with best percentage. :lol:

All the top ones are around 25-30%, which is really good.

To noone's surprise, De Gea is at 17%. :D

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32 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Not disagreeing with your point, but Florenzi wasn't in Italy's first 5 pen takers.

 

28 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

No he wasn't, but he was clearly brought on with them in mind and not for any attempt to alter the match in normal time (other than maybe to waste some time). 

Florenzi was injured and hadn't played since the first group match.  He may not have been fit for any more than taking a pen. And he was brought in for Emerson; has he ever even taken one? Florenzi is a good taker and still wasn't in the five. (Would be interesting to know where he was in the queue)

Maybe it matters, maybe it doesn't, or maybe it just depends on the player. I don't like it. Regardless, Rashford and Sancho could have had an impact before pens. 

Edited by XuluBak
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4 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

To noone's surprise, De Gea is at 17%. :D

Idk what you're talking about, I'm incredibly surprised it's that high! 

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16 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Yeah, back in Brazil.

Looking at those stats, what the hell are Inter defenders doing with that many penalties faced? :lol:

Defence when he joined was Ranocchia, Juan Jesus and Matias Silvestre. Then Campagnaro and Rolando. Basically all were penalties waiting to happen. :D

Oh, and the legends Jonathan, Alvaro Pereira and Dodo as wing backs. :idiot:

Edited by Marius_R
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39 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Not only that, he and Sancho could have changed the game had they been introduced much earlier

Absolutely.  120 minutes, only shot on target was Shaw's goal in the 2nd, surely those subs could have come sooner.

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2 hours ago, brett.spurs said:

Nah it was all Southgate.

Sterling, Grealish, Stones etc all wanted to take it but Gareth said no lads, the 19 year old who's never taken one in his life has got this.

Even if you decide that those are you five penalty takers, you should put Saka first and Kane last, not the other way around.

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16 minutes ago, XuluBak said:

Regardless, Rashford and Sancho could have had an impact before pens. 

Most certainly, I just don't like that that point is being conflated with their chance of penalty success. They should have been on earlier because they're good players and England should have tried to stretch Italy more. I see very little evidence that it would have made a meaningful difference to the outcome of their penalties other than some post-hoc justification because they missed. 

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29 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Diego Alves 27-67, 40%

In Brazil (Flamengo) his success rating regarding saving penalties is only about 28%.

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5 minutes ago, The Amazing Dale Watkins said:

Even if you decide that those are you five penalty takers, you should put Saka first and Kane last, not the other way around.

Idk. There's an argument to be made for putting your best taker fifth, but there's also one for putting your best taker(s) first. Otherwise you risk losing without your best taker even getting a kick. 

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As someone very looking forward to celebrating joy of England losing I feel stolen. 

Cannot take joy in that of the type I hoped. 3 young black men left exposed by poor management before a support which has a vile racist element, and an even bigger section which if not racist racist still turns to racist insults. 

Not to mention elements of England politics happy Rashford misses given the political problems he makes for them by being a decent man. 

What a scorched earth outcome for everyone bar Italians. Very frustrating. 

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It's coming to Rome, not home. Italy totally deserved the win. They were the best team in the tournament and in the final. They bossed the game and got back into it after going down to an early goal. Donnarumma was amazing, Mancini too and what can we say about the duo of Bonucci and Chiellini - rock solid leaders. Italy at times looked like Barca in the 2011 CL final at the same stadium. They could've won the game in the 2nd half even. 

England played scared and unsure, which is unexplainable and inexcusable given the fact that they were essentially the home team with all the support behind them, plus the early lead. Southgate made huge mistake not playing Rashford and Sancho more, not just this game but also the whole tournament. He was too worried about not losing than he was about trying to win. With such attacking talent you can't play so pragmatic. On paper, England had all the advantages, especially from the bench, but Gareth didn't use the players the right way. 

The greatest football mind, Johan Cruyff, has the famous saying "Italians cannot beat you, but you can lose to them". I think Gareth just learned how true that quote is. 

I predicted Italy would win the title as soon as the tournament started and I'm happy I was right. Argentina and Messi winning too just makes my weekend completely happy. 

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5 hours ago, DJ said:

Crying Baby GIF by memecandy

Funnily enough, I posted that before I even knew the result, I went to bed after extra time because I was so pissed off at myself for wasting 3 hours of my life watching such a boring game.

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1 hour ago, XuluBak said:

Idk. There's an argument to be made for putting your best taker fifth, but there's also one for putting your best taker(s) first. Otherwise you risk losing without your best taker even getting a kick. 

There's another argument to be made for not putting an inexperienced 18 year old in the position of having to take a decisive penalty in front of 60k home fans and the weight of an entire country on their shoulder. If you're gonna let him shoot, do it first, so the pressure isn't that ridiculously high.

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Thought Gareth Southgate's "mid-game management" was poor and a contributing factor to the loss. Was a bit dodgy against Denmark too but Italy are the better side so its more apparent. So some stuff there for him to mull over and learn from moving forward.

Taking Immobile off and moving Insighne middle was inspired by Mancini.

Anyway, wanted England to win but Italy are deserved winners so congrats to them.

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2 hours ago, Christmas said:

As someone very looking forward to celebrating joy of England losing I feel stolen. 

Cannot take joy in that of the type I hoped. 3 young black men left exposed by poor management before a support which has a vile racist element, and an even bigger section which if not racist racist still turns to racist insults. 

Not to mention elements of England politics happy Rashford misses given the political problems he makes for them by being a decent man. 

What a scorched earth outcome for everyone bar Italians. Very frustrating. 

I wish Jorginho had just done his job and scored, for this reason 

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Few questions need answering by Southgate

1 - Bringing on pen takers isnt a bad idea, but why bring them on so late that their only real touch of the ball was the penalty? Give them some feel for the game first

2 - Why did none of the senior players step forward (apart from 2) to take one?

3 - Rashford never looked at the ball once during his run-up or kick. He was only concerned with the way the keeper was going. We supposedly practice pens all the time. That cannot be a planned tactic surely? No one trains someone to not look at the ball

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42 minutes ago, Paul Bacon said:

Why did none of the senior players step forward (apart from 2) to take one?

We haven’t got many senior players tbf.

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5 hours ago, lennon67 said:

It's the daft run ups, why don't they just pick a side & go with it. 

If Jorginho missed against Spain, we would call his penalty style daft. Rashford did almost everything right but overcooked it. Sancho had a poor penalty regardless of run up. 

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15 minutes ago, Icondacarver said:

If Jorginho missed against Spain, we would call his penalty style daft. Rashford did almost everything right but overcooked it. Sancho had a poor penalty regardless of run up. 

But that's what Jorginho always does, that's his penalty taking style since he was at Verona IIRC. 

Edited by Marius_R
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Happy to see that dive from Sterling ultimately punished.

A penalty-related question: why do more players not shoot down the middle? Bernardeschi was smart to do that.

Edited by Bunkerossian
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Rashford and Sancho bottled it, Saka not much so as he had to balls to hit the 5th  Grealish, Shaw or Sterling (More so Sterling) should have taken the 5th Penalty, Southgate should have known about the 5th pen considering he took one himself and missed, An experienced player should have hit the 5th. Pickford was excellent and read Jorginho's pen really well

The game itself was poor from Englands Point of view, Italy was the better side but they not exactly had wall to wall chances. When you are introducting 3 creative players in the last 20 mins of Extra-Time questions have to be asked (Rashford and Sancho subs were stupid should have done during half-time in extra time). But sitting on a 1-0 lead is asking for trouble.

Just a really gutting feeling, Its a missed oppounity and teams like France, Holland, Germany will be stronger next year so i think its unlikely we will win the world cup

 

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5 hours ago, The Amazing Dale Watkins said:

Even if you decide that those are you five penalty takers, you should put Saka first and Kane last, not the other way around.

You don't put your best taker last either. You want a good start to set the pace, and remember what happened when C.Ronaldo was set to take the last peno vs Spain in some old Euro? By that time Portugal had already lost and he didn't get to take one.

You don't put Saka last though, that's for sure. It's an even worse decision than France putting Mbappe, who's had a disappointing tournament, last.

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5 hours ago, Christmas said:

As someone very looking forward to celebrating joy of England losing I feel stolen. 

Cannot take joy in that of the type I hoped. 3 young black men left exposed by poor management before a support which has a vile racist element, and an even bigger section which if not racist racist still turns to racist insults. 

Not to mention elements of England politics happy Rashford misses given the political problems he makes for them by being a decent man. 

What a scorched earth outcome for everyone bar Italians. Very frustrating. 

What on earth? You are saying Southgate shouldn't have allowed black players to take penalties because they could be abused if they missed?

There is plenty to criticise about Southgate's game management, but that's a bit over the top.

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1 minute ago, johnhughthom said:

What on earth? You are saying Southgate shouldn't have allowed black players to take penalties because they could be abused if they missed?

There is plenty to criticise about Southgate's game management, but that's a bit over the top.

No obviously not. Straw 

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2 minutes ago, Christmas said:

No obviously not. Straw 

Oh, was the poor management comment regarding Southgate bringing Sancho and Rashford for a penalty? Apologies if so. :thup:

Edited by johnhughthom
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1 hour ago, Weezer said:

We haven’t got many senior players tbf.

But a lot of very exciting youngster and prospects down the line. 

So while Football hasn't come home this year, I wouldn't be surprised England wins a major trophy within the next 5 to 10 years. I guess Football just wanted to make a final summer visit to Italy...

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Best team won. I do feel a bit robbed by Southgate though, despite being 100% behind him for everything he's achieved so far. We were crying out for Saka to come on and push Italy back while it was still 1-0, but he left it too late. Then crying out for fresh attackers, particularly after Chiesa went off, but left that too little/late. Mancini made proactive changes, Southgate just didn't. Less said about penalties the better. Even if you still have the same 5 taking - one of the Harrys has to go last.

On the red card shouts - they're definitely both in the "seen them given" category. Chiellini's reminds me of a red card Rooney got when he expected a yellow - it's excessive force as well as a tactical foul. Jorginho gets away with a very stampy motion that is very often punished. Can't blame the result on either decision, neither is clear cut, but those are my thoughts on them.

Edited by m_fenton
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I don't think Saka was that crucial a decision, if he scores you command the bravery of Southgate to empower young players to step up. I wouldn't have that much faith in Grealish scoring.

It's unsurprising that Italy dominated the midfield from about 40 minutes onwards, it's what most people expected. Rice and Phillips made up for it physically in the first half, in the second Henderson wasn't good either defending or in possession, a few simple balls were just given away.

For all that Italy still only made half chances and the first two were just individual efforts from Chiesa. This is how Southgate is, if you happen not to concede it's great defence, a scrappy corner and we've bottled it. Southgate only seemed to make the change when we conceded but it wasn't as though the goal came from nowhere, Italy had pressure but kept giving it away (I don't think they knew what to do in the final third tbh).

Italy were so dominant on the ball in the centre I don't think there is a tweak or sub that can rectify it, but when you look at the Italian XI that finished the match there's not much in attack or midfield that really gets you worried. You can go for it a bit more without being really open, you just reduce the chance of a draw imo.

Instead we were so deep we didn't even threaten to counter because there was no out ball, hence Maguire just hoofing it out a few times.

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10 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

We were crying out for Saka to come on and push Italy back while it was still 0-0, but he left it too late.

Did you mean someone else there or a different scoreline (1-1)?  Not sure we were crying out for someone less than 2 minutes into the game. 

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Just now, Bigwig said:

Did you mean someone else there or a different scoreline (1-1)?  Not sure we were crying out for someone less than 2 minutes into the game. 

Meant 1-0 :D

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