Denmark fans assaulted in London after Wednesdays game

[decapitated]

 

I've heard anecdotally that the Italian community in London is quite wary about going on Sunday night after hearing reports from the Danish community about what went on. I'd love England to win, but we do have a dark side to our support.

 

 

[Tikka Mezzala]

Sad to hear, man. 

[Unknown Hacker]

My advice to Italian fans would be that if they're going on public transport after the game they should bring a jacket and not paint a flag on their face.

Obviously any incidents in the ground and immediately outside it are completely unacceptable and should've been avoided by better ticketing and stewarding, or police involvement if necessary. But a lot of the first article simply betrays the naivety of the family involved. You're travelling through South London late at night on public transport through crowds of drunken morons, while advertising that you are an away fan. You're going to get some stick.

Football fan culture in a lot of places is terrible, and if this article gets other people who wouldn't normally attend matches to take sensible precautions when they do then that's a good thing.

[Astafjevs]

That's got to be one of the worst posts I've seen

[sc91]

I'm always super skeptical about any articles relating to fans and violence, if it's happened than that isn't great but the chances of this being slightly embelished and largely over the top are quite high.

[Tikka Mezzala]

28 minutes ago, Unknown Hacker said:

But a lot of the first article simply betrays the naivety of the family involved. 

C'mon, man. Let's not lay any of the blame on the doorsteps of the victims. I'm sure you're better than that.

[Unknown Hacker]

9 minutes ago, Tikka Mezzala said:

C'mon, man. Let's not lay any of the blame on the doorsteps of the victims. I'm sure you're better than that.

I'm not making excuses for the perpetrators, and I feel genuinely sorry for the family that got caught in that situation. As someone who's been caught in similar situations in the past and come off quite badly, I can empathise with them.

But this is a situation where, if you know as an away fan that you'll be journeying through an area filled with drunken fans of the opposition, there are some precautions that can be taken. Not taking those precautions makes you naive. It doesn't make you to blame for anything bad that happens to you. That's all I was saying.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Unknown Hacker

[Tikka Mezzala]

16 minutes ago, Unknown Hacker said:

I'm not making excuses for the perpetrators, and I feel genuinely sorry for the family that got caught in that situation. As someone who's been caught in similar situations in the past and come off quite badly, I can empathise with them.

But this is a situation where, if you know as an away fan that you'll be journeying through an area filled with drunken fans of the opposition, there are some precautions that can be taken. Not taking those precautions makes you naive. It doesn't make you to blame for anything bad that happens to you. That's all I was saying.

I'm sure you're well meaning. But I don't think it's naive of them. It wasn't one of those powder-keg fixtures with a history of crowd trouble. I think they could reasonably expect people to get home safely in colours.

[Readingfanman]

Edit - Point made in 2nd post

Edited July 9, 2021 by Readingfanman

[Readingfanman]

1 hour ago, Tikka Mezzala said:

I'm sure you're well meaning. But I don't think it's naive of them. It wasn't one of those powder-keg fixtures with a history of crowd trouble. I think they could reasonably expect people to get home safely in colours.

Any fixture which is big enough for both sides doesn't need to have a history though for more arseholes to come out the woodwork. It doesn't need to be a match with historical precedent imo for that sort of thing to potentially happen. 

I've had it happen at Reading games before where people happily will shout/insult you through a bus window after a game. I've had it happen at Sheffield Wednesday on my own after an evening game, but I knew it might be the case with it being a big implication for both sides and tried to take some precautions. I understand why people may think they don't need to, or shouldn't have to, but I think it is the reality of the sport, that when there is a game big enough, this sort of thing unfortunatley does happen.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Readingfanman

[decapitated]

To be fair to the family and the young woman in the case, they don't seem to be regular football attending fans so wouldn't be 'streetwise' to those facts. Due to the travel restrictions, a lot of the opposition supporters are taken from expat communities who don't normally attend football. They aren't going to know these things and besides its no excuse for a half a dozen men to beat up a woman or 40 men to stop a bus and storm it to attack a family. There's no excuse for that.

[Unknown Hacker]

32 minutes ago, decapitated said:

To be fair to the family and the young woman in the case, they don't seem to be regular football attending fans so wouldn't be 'streetwise' to those facts. Due to the travel restrictions, a lot of the opposition supporters are taken from expat communities who don't normally attend football. They aren't going to know these things and besides its no excuse for a half a dozen men to beat up a woman or 40 men to stop a bus and storm it to attack a family. There's no excuse for that.

I'm not excusing either incident, and in my first post I say that the ground and its immediate vicinity should be a safe space for everyone, even if that necessitates a heavy police presence.

On the topic of people that don't usually attend matches not being streetwise, I agree with you. My first post was focusing on what positive lessons can be learnt from the family's bad experience, not whether they were to blame for it.

Sunday night is going to be one of the most intense games ever played in England, and emotions will be running high. I want Italy fans to be safe travelling through London and make a few recommendations and suddenly my post is one of the worst ever seen (I know you didn't say this).

Edited July 9, 2021 by Unknown Hacker
Fixed spelling

[Anthrax Dave]

Any violence towards other fans is reprehensible.

Even more so those for fans who are not even looking for trouble.

[PaulHartman71]

Wouldn’t like to be an Italian restaurant owner in a big city centre if England lose tomorrow tbh. 
 

With regards to the Danish family getting harassed I don’t think it’s naive from them really. I feel like international tournaments are usually a bit different to club football. I think it’s fair to expect to be able to go to an “away” game against a home nation at a major tournament, lose the game, and not get harassed after it whilst wearing colours. 
 

 

[Reggiana]

I've travelled to about 8 tournaments, admittedly I've only seen the host nation at a couple of those but I've never been in a situation where I've thought people were needing to be careful about showing who they support.

There are a few countries where there is an element of their support that looks for trouble, England are unfortunately on that list. The vast majority of fans are fine and need to call out the small minority who aren't rather than getting defensive and victim blaming.

[Divinity]

15 hours ago, Unknown Hacker said:

My advice to Italian fans would be that if they're going on public transport after the game they should bring a jacket and not paint a flag on their face.

I guess you think women should also cover up to look less appealing to men?

[thefmveteran86]

As an England fan, we don't condone any attacks on any fans who visit Wembley or those who are hooligans attack our hosts. I'm appalled to those who did this but it does say "she claimed" she was attacked but either way this is digusting

[Wolf_pd]

11 hours ago, PaulHartman71 said:

Wouldn’t like to be an Italian restaurant owner in a big city centre if England lose tomorrow tbh. 

With regards to the Danish family getting harassed I don’t think it’s naive from them really. I feel like international tournaments are usually a bit different to club football. I think it’s fair to expect to be able to go to an “away” game against a home nation at a major tournament, lose the game, and not get harassed after it whilst wearing colours. 

Booze fueled, bored out of their minds, there are all kind of reasons one can mention, but this kind of stuff is indeed uncommon in international tournaments. The things I can come up with is the Russian hooligans in France a few years back and the Charleroi stuff, but that's back in 2000. There will be more, but club cup competitions are usually much worse.

Also, I guess that Italian restaurant owner should have opened a fish and chips shops instead reading some opinions.

[ryan045]

I don’t think Italians need to worry about the final. Wembley is generally a safe place compared to other places around the world. Always get a few nobs here and there.

[VamPook]

 

[enigmatic]

Not as nice as the Icelanders I watched the last Euros with. They managed not to laugh

[Wolf_pd]

1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

Not as nice as the Icelanders I watched the last Euros with. They managed not to laugh

Where is that Ari Eldjárn video about that game

[bestbrother]

Dont think you will get away by running 

[Federico]

Il 9/7/2021 in 15:57 , decapitated ha scritto:

 

I'd love England to win, but we do have a dark side to our support.

 

 

Sorry to say this, but that's something we pretty much know since a very long time.

[Novem9]

But of course, the festival of violence was in the 2018 World Cup and in general, the hypocritical English media are the most honest and objective in the world

 

 

[clokey1988]

10 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

But of course, the festival of violence was in the 2018 World Cup and in general, the hypocritical English media are the most honest and objective in the world

 

 

Have seen this tweet shared a few times with the implication that it shows England fans attacking Italians. It doesn't. It is England fans in the ground with valid tickets scuffling with a second group of England fans who stormed one of the disabled gates to gain access to the game without tickets. 

[Novem9]

4 минуты назад, clokey1988 сказал:

It is England fans in the ground with valid tickets scuffling with a second group of England fans who stormed one of the disabled gates to gain access to the game without tickets. 

Ah, well then, everything is all right! (no) 
There is a lack of a third faction of fans who would explain that booing the anthems of other countries is not gentlemanly 

 

[clokey1988]

10 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

Ah, well then, everything is all right! (no) 
There is a lack of a third faction of fans who would explain that booing the anthems of other countries is not gentlemanly 

 

I'm not saying it's "all right", just pointing out that the quoted tweet is a gross misrepresentation of what actually happened. Social media bot accounts twisting reality are a huge problem and should be challenged and corrected whenever encountered.

Edited July 12, 2021 by clokey1988

[Novem9]

17 минут назад, clokey1988 сказал:

Social media bot accounts twisting reality are a huge problem

Yes, you're right in this point, I'm just schoked and can't realize how it could be in country which was so 'worried' about prev tournament. It was a very long and unpleasant event (I mean propaganda and fake news, not tournament )

So you want tell me a group of English supporters tried to break through the fence and legal visitors organized to gathered in a kind of Neighborhood watch? It's amazing self-organization, no irony 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Novem9

[Unknown Hacker]

On 10/07/2021 at 07:41, Divinity said:

I guess you think women should also cover up to look less appealing to men?

There's a world of a difference between an unchangeable physical characteristic (race, gender identity, disability, etc) and choosing to wear certain clothes to show your support for a football team.

Your guess that my post would have any bearing on my views on sexual violence is not only wrong, it's completely absurd.

On 10/07/2021 at 09:09, Wolf_pd said:

Also, I guess that Italian restaurant owner should have opened a fish and chips shops instead reading some opinions.

If that was directed at me then that's a bizarre comment. I'm not sure how you went from my post that it was probably naive to wear colours on a long public transport journey across South London to 'foreign fans should only open fish and chip shops otherwise they're to blame for anything bad that happens to their businesses when their countries play England at football'. To compare someone's livelihood to the way they dress when travelling to/from a football stadium is a pretty big (and unjustified) leap.

I thought my initial post was pretty nuanced, however the fact that multiple people have misread it suggests that I expressed myself poorly. While that's my fault, I can't abide people misreading it and guessing that I'm a rape apologist or some other nonsense. If anyone wants to discuss this further I'd be happy to do so in PMs.

[Unknown Hacker]

On 09/07/2021 at 23:24, Reggiana said:

I've travelled to about 8 tournaments, admittedly I've only seen the host nation at a couple of those but I've never been in a situation where I've thought people were needing to be careful about showing who they support.

There are a few countries where there is an element of their support that looks for trouble, England are unfortunately on that list. The vast majority of fans are fine and need to call out the small minority who aren't rather than getting defensive and victim blaming.

As I said, I wasn't victim-blaming and I'm more than happy to call out both the 'fans' carrying out such attacks and the lax stadium security and minimal police presence that enabled them to do so without fear of arrest.

I don't see how my posts could ever be read as defending English football fandom in general, let alone idiots like the perpetrators of the attacks in the original post. If anyone feels differently and wants to discuss this further, feel free to PM me.

[Wolf_pd]

33 minutes ago, Unknown Hacker said:

If that was directed at me then that's a bizarre comment. I'm not sure how you went from my post that it was probably naive to wear colours on a long public transport journey across South London to 'foreign fans should only open fish and chip shops otherwise they're to blame for anything bad that happens to their businesses when their countries play England at football'. To compare someone's livelihood to the way they dress when travelling to/from a football stadium is a pretty big (and unjustified) leap.

It wasn't directed at you (did I say that anywhere?), so don't respond like you are being attacked.

[eenie]

11 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

It wasn't directed at you (did I say that anywhere?), so don't respond like you are being attacked.

If he doesn't want to be attacked then he just needs to change his behaviour.