Match 48: Ukraine vs England - Saturday 8pm (BST) BBC1 LIVE FROM ROME !!!!!

[Gizmo7]

This tournament was always scheduled to be a one-off multiple-hosts affair, wasn’t it? 

I don’t get the complaints that the host nations are getting an unfair home advantage. That’s… sort of the point of hosting these things…? Always has been  

[EnterUsernameHere]

3 minutes ago, Gizmo7 said:

This tournament was always scheduled to be a one-off multiple-hosts affair, wasn’t it? 

I don’t get the complaints that the host nations are getting an unfair home advantage. That’s… sort of the point of hosting these things…? Always has been  

Yeah that's why I wouldn't really complain about it, even though I prefer 1 nation rather than multiple.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I quite like the multi host thing, would be better if the lower ranked team got to play at home though, in the group stages anyway. Also it would have been so much better with full capacity at each ground.

And no ****ing Baku.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Coulthard's Jaw

[Baptista_8]

Baku should have been scrapped after that Arsenal Chelsea EL Final with no atmosphere.

[EnterUsernameHere]

4 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I quite like the multi host thing, would be better if the lower ranked team got to play at home though. Also it would have been so much better with full capacity at each ground.

And no ****ing Baku.

I think the fan experience from 1 nation approach seems a lot better, with the obvious "hard to compare to non-covid times" caveat.

I'm not very patriotic, but seeing the pictures/videos from friends who watched NI in France...I'm not sure a multi nation approach could compete with that. Maybe it's different if you're from a bigger country, but it felt like a lot of my social circles who didn't mix back home were drinking together then

Still regret not going over there now.

Edited July 3, 2021 by EnterUsernameHere

[Baptista_8]

Different class from Shaw tonight

[Coulthard's Jaw]

6 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Baku should have been scrapped after that Arsenal Chelsea EL Final with no atmosphere.

And making it impossible for a player to play in the match because of his nationality.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

7 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

I'm not very patriotic, but seeing the pictures/videos from friends who watched NI in France...I'm not sure a multi nation approach could compete with that. Maybe it's different if you're from a bigger country, but it felt like a lot of my social circles who didn't mix back home were drinking together then

Yeah I think the one nation experience can be amazing. But also Europe wide does give the smaller countries a chance to host games and experience the atmosphere. It's a shame Dublin had to give up its games for example. So maybe not every tournament but an occasional treat.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Coulthard's Jaw

[StevehFC]

3 hours ago, SouthCoastRed said:

Thanks good, every side who’ve received your backing so far have done tremendous 

Maybe i should back England on Wednesday in that case. 

All jokes a side. Luke Shaw was your best player tonight. 

[Heartwork]

2 hours ago, Gizmo7 said:

Disappointing lack of “MASSIVE SEMI” headlines, etc. 

We do have a raging semi on our hands.

[The Amazing Dale Watkins]

1 hour ago, Gizmo7 said:

This tournament was always scheduled to be a one-off multiple-hosts affair, wasn’t it? 

I don’t get the complaints that the host nations are getting an unfair home advantage. That’s… sort of the point of hosting these things…? Always has been  

Yeah, but in these times it's a bit more extreme. In past tournaments, the tickets were fairly evenly split between the two teams, and then the rest were for the locals. In the later rounds a rather large portion of the tickets would be reserved for either team, so even when the home team is playing they wouldn't completely dominate the inside the of the stadium. Now you have 60,000 people in Wembley and, with the corona travel restrictions the way they are, 58,000 of them will be cheering for the host nation. That's quite a change from previous tournaments.

Edited July 4, 2021 by The Amazing Dale Watkins

[Heartwork]

 

[skybluedave]

6 hours ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

It's a shame Dublin had to give up its games for example. So maybe not every tournament but an occasional treat.

England Germany would have been in Dublin. Can you imagine the scenes 

[Weezer]

6 hours ago, Heartwork said:

We do have a raging semi on our hands.

 

8 hours ago, Gizmo7 said:

Disappointing lack of “MASSIVE SEMI” headlines, etc. 

Pfft, semi?  You Pele? I was at full glory when that Henderson goal went in….

[Tikka Mezzala]

Congratulations to England! Expectations were firmly met. Another clean sheet too! 

 

[Razzler]

Everything Southgate has done has worked pretty well, none of his changes had backfired, drop Kane/drop Sterling/pick this guy or that. Guys on yellow cards have not picked up bookings, he's touched by angels!

That 3rd goal was pretty damn good tbh

Back to back semi finals is pretty decent but I'd freaking love to get to the final, LOVE IT!

 

[craigcwwe]

14 hours ago, Pukey said:

Lovely stuff. Absolutely nothing to complain about. 

I've just caught up with this thread and I'm about to head into the England thread, I'm sure someone will have found something to moan about...

[Weezer]

4 hours ago, Razzler said:

Everything Southgate has done has worked pretty well, none of his changes had backfired, drop Kane/drop Sterling/pick this guy or that. Guys on yellow cards have not picked up bookings, he's touched by angels!

 

Exactly why I backed us back in the group stages, £140+ incoming when we win the final. Not only is it becoming apparent that he's a slightly better manager than I've given him credit for he's also one lucky son of a *****! Two major tournaments in a row now the draw has bent over and allowed England safe passage to the final, just a shame we bottled it against Croatia in the World Cup. Everything just seems to go his way.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

He's a great international tournament manager, his skill set is absolutely perfect for it.

[skybluedave]

I think Southgate has shown fans and media that international football requires a different set of skills to club management. The idea that any old succesful club manager can do a good job isn't true.

I'm trying to compare to Capello's reign. I liked Capello, he had us playing effective football for a bit but anything away from game management he was awful. Maybe he didn't adapt his club style to international. 

I know everyone bangs on about the team spirit in the squad but it's true. If it was so easy to acheive that then we would have had this before under different managers. 

[Weezer]

40 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

He's a great international tournament manager, his skill set is absolutely perfect for it.

Fine margins though, which is where the luck comes in. All his tweaks have worked perfectly for him, if we'd fallen at the first hurdle against Germany though he'd have been slaughtered for changing the system. Look at Deschamps and Pep. Fine line between genius and madman  

[Lucas]

25 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

I know everyone bangs on about the team spirit in the squad but it's true. If it was so easy to acheive that then we would have had this before under different managers. 

This is also why Italy are doing so well too imo. They have really good team spirit as well at the moment. 

[SouthCoastRed]

22 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Fine margins though, which is where the luck comes in. All his tweaks have worked perfectly for him, if we'd fallen at the first hurdle against Germany though he'd have been slaughtered for changing the system. Look at Deschamps and Pep. Fine line between genius and madman  

Totally agree, I think he’s doing fantastic, but there’s no avoiding the fact he’s a spawny git too, past managers would have killed for the routes he’s had here.

Mind you Woy still ****ed it up, even with the easiest draw 

[Astafjevs]

I agree Southgate has done well. But what seems to get ignored is that he's got loads of talented players to work with relative to the other coaches that have gone before. Probably the best England first XI since 2004 and the best squad possibly ever. Certainly in my time, which will be similar in length to most people on here.

[Lucas]

Just now, Astafjevs said:

I agree Southgate has done well. But what seems to get ignored is that he's got loads of talented players to work with relative to the other coaches that have gone before. Probably the best England first XI since 2004 and the best squad possibly ever. Certainly in my time, which will be similar in length to most people on here.

1v1 I think there were better players in the 2004 side all over the pitch (only the front line compares I think). But this is by far the better team, and the best squad in teams of quality we've taken to a tournament for almost as long as I can remember.

[Weezer]

We've had better XIs but in terms of squad depth, and relative to others nations too, this is the strongest England squad in my lifetime. I don't see another country that has the strength in depth as we do right now.

[The_jagster]

I think we are relatively weak in central midfield, we could do with a Verratti or Kante who is good at both breaking up play and taking it forward. Although as Neville pointed out Liverpool have a functional midfield compared to the rest of the team.

Edit: Bellingham will probably help soon

Edited July 4, 2021 by The_jagster

[skybluedave]

My dream player in this England side would be Modric. Cloned, younger and English. Tbf I'd take him now 35

[Astafjevs]

Verratti is a top player and there aren't many around who can do what he does. But I think in a few years you'll look back and probably laugh at a Rice and Phillips midfield. Even more so if England win the whole thing. Because I can see Mount, Foden, Bellingham all becoming really good central midfielders. I think it's clear already Foden would be better off in central midfield for a Southgate-led England team

[Rob1981]

1 hour ago, Astafjevs said:

I agree Southgate has done well. But what seems to get ignored is that he's got loads of talented players to work with relative to the other coaches that have gone before. Probably the best England first XI since 2004 and the best squad possibly ever. Certainly in my time, which will be similar in length to most people on here.

He's got a load of good players to work with but he has done an exceptional job of managing the squad and rotating them over the last couple of years.  The reason you look to the bench and see all these options is because he has made a conscious decision to give them all experience in different qualifiers and in different systems.  Now they've all got caps under their belts, they all know they are going to get involved at some stage.  A squad with no automatic picks and no hierarchies.  I know we've gone about this a lot but it doesn't happen by accident. 

Other coaches that have gone before could have done this, instead they stuck to the same favourites game after game after game.  Didn't manage their resources in the way that Gareth has.  The likes of Michael Carrick, Jamie Carragher, Joe Cole, Robbie Fowler, Gareth Barry were all completely wasted by England managers gone by.  Brilliant club careers but carted off to tournaments miserable knowing they weren't going to play unless there was an injury or a suspension.  Man for man these guys were just as good as some of the current squad, if not better... just weren't integrated into the setup properly.

I mean Carrick went to two World Cups as a backup player and in the years in between only won about 10 caps in four seasons.  Even though he had won three league titles and a Champions League.  It's crazy really, but we had managers that just wanted to play the same system and the same players every game unless there was an enforced reason not to.

[skybluedave]

Foden is strange. For me he'd play every game. But I wonder if he's gonna get labeled a system player. Great for Pep style Man City but after not being as good for England or maybe not being as effective in England's system he'll end up being benched more for somebody like Mount, who is also very good but  fits the system better. 

I think he's far too good for that to happen though. I really hope we can find a role in the team for him which he nails down by time next WC.

I've also got a feeling he might start Wednesday

[Astafjevs]

Sorry but the reason you look to the bench and see these options is because they're good players, and then good players with their clubs. Not because Southgate has given them a bunch of caps over the years.

Sancho hasn't done much in an England shirt. The calls from people to start him weren't because he's been amazing for England, but because he's been amazing for Dortmund and also for Dortmund in the Champions League. Ditto Grealish, minus the Champions League bit.

Mount - hasn't done a great deal for England either. He's not been bad, but let's not pretend he's been setting international football alight. But for Chelsea he's brilliant and a Champions League winner.

This is where the depth comes from.

 

I'm saying 'good players', but really in most cases they're better than that. You don't win tournaments with a bunch of good players. You need guys who are playing at the highest level and making the difference

Edited July 4, 2021 by Astafjevs

[Rob1981]

1 minute ago, Astafjevs said:

Sorry but the reason you look to the bench and see these options is because they're good players, and then good players with their clubs. Not because Southgate has given them a bunch of caps over the years.

Do you think Sam Allardyce would have reached two tourament semi finals with these players?

We have had squad depth before and not used it properly.

 

[Astafjevs]

8 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Foden is strange. For me he'd play every game. But I wonder if he's gonna get labeled a system player. Great for Pep style Man City but after not being as good for England or maybe not being as effective in England's system he'll end up being benched more for somebody like Mount, who is also very good but  fits the system better. 

I think he's far too good for that to happen though. I really hope we can find a role in the team for him which he nails down by time next WC.

I've also got a feeling he might start Wednesday

This is where I think Southgate makes a difference. Others have mentioned this too so I know I'm not saying anything new. Previous coaches would have looked at it and tried to get everyone in the team. All the talent. Southgate looks at it and picks those who play well for him.

If you play well for your club, you've got a good chance of getting picked for the squad, particularly if it's a Champions League club. But if you want to get in his XI, you need to play well for him. It's why Sancho is 3rd choice fast winger after Sterling and Saka. He'd probably be 4th choice but Southgate has decided Rashford is the backup No.9 and not a wide option for this tournament. 

But at the same time, other coaches haven't necessarily had the options to keep talent like Sancho out the XI. They've had to stick with their main guys. 

[noikeee]

47 minutes ago, Weezer said:

We've had better XIs but in terms of squad depth, and relative to others nations too, this is the strongest England squad in my lifetime. I don't see another country that has the strength in depth as we do right now.

France. But yeah other than them you guys have the best squad at the moment. 

[Astafjevs]

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

Do you think Sam Allardyce would have reached two tourament semi finals with these players?

We have had squad depth before and not used it properly.

 

Honestly if you think the depth of previous England squads is anywhere near comparable to this one then we'll just have to agree to disagree

[Rob1981]

Do you think Sam Allardyce would have reached two tournament semi finals with these players?  Simple enough question.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Rob1981

[Astafjevs]

No of course not, not with his style of football. 

But that doesn't mean other coaches wouldn't have.

[Rob1981]

I think when you talk about rotation, giving them all international experience etc. you do really see the benefit of the Nations League.  People moaned about it but compared to his predecessors Southgate has had a dozen more competitive games over the last 3 year period.  Loads of chances to throw players in and give them game time when there is something riding on it... not just in the last half hour of a flat friendly where the ground has already started to empty.

Same for everybody though I guess.

[The_jagster]

38 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Foden is strange. For me he'd play every game. But I wonder if he's gonna get labeled a system player. Great for Pep style Man City but after not being as good for England or maybe not being as effective in England's system he'll end up being benched more for somebody like Mount, who is also very good but  fits the system better. 

I think he's far too good for that to happen though. I really hope we can find a role in the team for him which he nails down by time next WC.

I've also got a feeling he might start Wednesday

He'll probably get better, it's only this past season he's been starting regularly.

[MIR17]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

We've had better XIs but in terms of squad depth, and relative to others nations too, this is the strongest England squad in my lifetime. I don't see another country that has the strength in depth as we do right now.

Yeah that's my thoughts too.

People say Euro 2004 was our best side and maybe the starting XI was the best player for player. But we used to have to bring on the likes of Kieran Dyer and Darius Vassell off the bench as our game changing players in that tournament.

The mid-00s side had zero depth, that's exactly why we had to try and shoehorn the likes of Beckham Gerrard Lampard Scholes Owen and Rooney into the same side, because the quality options behind them just weren't there.

A player like James Maddison would be our first choice sub coming off the bench every game during the "Golden Generation" side, whereas he can't even get in the current squad because of the quality ahead of him.

As a squad, this is definitely the best we've had in my lifetime.

[The_jagster]

3 minutes ago, MIR17 said:

Yeah that's my thoughts too.

People say Euro 2004 was our best side and maybe the starting XI was the best player for player. But we used to have to bring on the likes of Kieran Dyer and Darius Vassell off the bench as our game changing players in that tournament.

The mid-00s side had zero depth, that's exactly why we had to try and shoehorn the likes of Beckham Gerrard Lampard Scholes Owen and Rooney into the same side, because the quality options just weren't there.

A player like James Maddison would be our first choice sub coming off the bench every game during the "Golden Generation" side, whereas he can't even get in the current squad because of the quality ahead of him.

Tbf Mings is our first replacement centre back and Calvert-Lewin the next out and out striker. In attack we can change system though to make the most of attacking talents, back then it was always 4-4-2

Edited July 4, 2021 by The_jagster

[Weezer]

1 hour ago, noikeee said:

France. But yeah other than them you guys have the best squad at the moment. 

Don't even think France have tbh. If Mbappe, Griezmann and Benzema aren't looking like scoring who do France bring on to change the game? Giroud is probably slightly better than DCL but after that you're into Coman, Lemar, Thuram, Ben Yedder, Sissoko. Are any of them better than Grealish, Foden or Sancho? I don't think they are. Even after those 3 you have Rashford, Mount and Saka in the next tier down. In terms of options to switch up our style or change the game I don't see another squad better than ours.

[Pukey]

1 hour ago, Astafjevs said:

Verratti is a top player and there aren't many around who can do what he does. But I think in a few years you'll look back and probably laugh at a Rice and Phillips midfield. Even more so if England win the whole thing. Because I can see Mount, Foden, Bellingham all becoming really good central midfielders. I think it's clear already Foden would be better off in central midfield for a Southgate-led England team

Think it's being exceptionally harsh to say we'll laugh at a Rice/Phillips midfield when they've had an outstanding tournament, Phillips especially. There's better midfields sure, but they were key components against Croatia and Germany (after a rough first 10 minutes.)

[iamjerome]

yes the bench of attacking talent is better. but england have had better defenders, better midfielders during the 00s. we really underachieved massively in 2002-2010 period. i mean we had a period where we had neville, rio, terry, cole, scholes, beckham, gerrard, lamps, carrick, rooney, owen. literally all of those players were unquestionably world class. but no manager managed to use them well enough to make england a successful side at international level. fine owen dropped off half way into the decade but even still that is a great list of players. and it's not just them, we had also people like joe cole or sol campbell etc well

southgate is doing an absolutely brilliant job

Edited July 4, 2021 by iamjerome

[enigmatic]

1 hour ago, MIR17 said:

Yeah that's my thoughts too.

People say Euro 2004 was our best side and maybe the starting XI was the best player for player. But we used to have to bring on the likes of Kieran Dyer and Darius Vassell off the bench as our game changing players in that tournament.

The mid-00s side had zero depth, that's exactly why we had to try and shoehorn the likes of Beckham Gerrard Lampard Scholes Owen and Rooney into the same side, because the quality options behind them just weren't there.

A player like James Maddison would be our first choice sub coming off the bench every game during the "Golden Generation" side, whereas he can't even get in the current squad because of the quality ahead of him.

As a squad, this is definitely the best we've had in my lifetime.

Swings and roundabouts. We started Mings in the first two games. If he was part of that generation, Mings never gets a single cap and Maguire possibly misses the cut for the squad. We have ridiculous depth in wide players now, we had it at centre half at the time.

It wasn't like we didn't have defensively minded midfielders at the level of those in our current squad if we wanted to bench Scholes, Beckham and/or Lampard like we've done with Grealish/Sancho/Foden either,

Edited July 4, 2021 by enigmatic

[ajw10]

30 minutes ago, iamjerome said:

yes the bench of attacking talent is better. bengland have had better defenders, better midfielders during the 00s. we really underachieved massively in 2002-2010 period. i mean we had a period where we had neville, rio, terry, cole, scholes, beckham, gerrard, lamps, carrick, rooney, owen. literally all of those players were unquestionably world class. but no manager managed to use them well enough to make england a successful side at international level. fine owen dropped off half way into the decade but even still that is a great list of players. and it's not just them, we had also people like joe cole or sol campbell etc well

southgate is doing an absolutely brilliant job

and someone like Sven would have played Grealish, Mount, Foden with no holding midfielders. 

[enigmatic]

tbf Sven did always play Owen Hargreaves as a ball winner and copped a lot of flak for doing it. But he'd definitely have shoehorned the team into some sort of rigid midfield four and a front two.

              Rashford Kane

Sterling Grealish Henderson Sancho

is probably the most Sven-ish front six, and whilst that's not terrible, Sterling and Sancho are doing a lot of tracking back...

 

 

 

 

[Heartwork]

1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

tbf Sven did always play Owen Hargreaves as a ball winner and copped a lot of flak for doing it. But he'd definitely have shoehorned the team into some sort of rigid midfield four and a front two.

              Rashford Kane

Sterling Grealish Henderson Sancho

is probably the most Sven-ish front six, and whilst that's not terrible, Sterling and Sancho are doing a lot of tracking back...

Played Hargreaves when he wasn't injured anyway.

[Nordan]

Yeah, Southgate is doing quite well. You've been up against formidable enemies and prevailed.

My last hope is Italy or Spain winning or this place will melt, maybe they'll both be knocked out the way this has progressed.