4-4-1-1 Help

[wazzaflow10]

I seem to have settled on an effective tactic with Nürnberg. I generally have >55% posession and greater share of xG. I can't seem to get my players to have the desire to score though. I signed a CF that had 15 in Bundesliga2 last year but he's spurning every chance it feels. I know crossing is a little wonky in this version but I've also found my wingbacks really do not want to cross the ball when they're in open space ever. They much prefer to run into the area and get closed down and win a corner (and I almost never win the headers from that). 

So any thoughts on getting a little more offensive thrust to pick up a few more goals? This is typically my side when at full strength. If I'm dominating possession I'll boost mentality to positive or move Hack and Misidjan further up the pitch.  

[TommyToxic]

To make fullbacks cross more you can always tell them to take more risk.
If you want more goals it might help to put the SS to the left and the TM to the right, enable Counter in transition, and change mentality to positive.

[wazzaflow10]

9 hours ago, TommyToxic said:

To make fullbacks cross more you can always tell them to take more risk.
If you want more goals it might help to put the SS to the left and the TM to the right, enable Counter in transition, and change mentality to positive.

Its not so much crossing more. They cross plenty. It's they don't seem to want to cross until they're closed down and happy to just take the corner kick. Do we accept that's a known "bug" or is there something more that can be done about it? Its rather frustrating to watch all the attacking moves get snuffed out like this. 

[Sneaky Pete]

On 30/06/2021 at 18:10, wazzaflow10 said:

It's they don't seem to want to cross until they're closed down and happy to just take the corner kick.

This is a known problem with FM21, yes. Frankly, you will still score a reasonable amount of goals - wide players have far too much space and therefore far more crossing opportunities than they would IRL, so their absolutely godawful success rate balances it out - but it can be unwatchable at times, especially if you play on Comprehensive.

[divij13]

On 30/06/2021 at 21:40, wazzaflow10 said:

Its not so much crossing more. They cross plenty. It's they don't seem to want to cross until they're closed down and happy to just take the corner kick. Do we accept that's a known "bug" or is there something more that can be done about it? Its rather frustrating to watch all the attacking moves get snuffed out like this. 

Try removing ‘Shorter Passing’ TI.

If you still find that your wide players are hesitant to cross, try bumping the mentality up to Positive. 

[wazzaflow10]

5 hours ago, Sneaky Pete said:

This is a known problem with FM21, yes. Frankly, you will still score a reasonable amount of goals - wide players have far too much space and therefore far more crossing opportunities than they would IRL, so their absolutely godawful success rate balances it out - but it can be unwatchable at times, especially if you play on Comprehensive.

yeah I'm sure the success rate is about league average it's the variety of failures that's rather irksome. I play a mix of Comprehensive/Full depending on how in control I feel. 

[wazzaflow10]

5 hours ago, divij13 said:

Try removing ‘Shorter Passing’ TI.

If you still find that your wide players are hesitant to cross, try bumping the mentality up to Positive. 

My fear with removing the shorter passing is the more positive minded players will start playing too direct (which probably doesn't work for this style) when not crossing. I do bump up to positive if I'm getting too much of the ball and not enough chances. 

[CARRERA]

6 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

My fear with removing the shorter passing is the more positive minded players will start playing too direct (which probably doesn't work for this style)

What are your concerns about being more direct in your tactics?

[Prolix]

1 hour ago, wazzaflow10 said:

My fear with removing the shorter passing is the more positive minded players will start playing too direct (which probably doesn't work for this style) when not crossing. I do bump up to positive if I'm getting too much of the ball and not enough chances. 

Counterpoints:

• you only have 3 players on Attack duty (with a team Balanced mentality);
• if you didn't want those 3 players to be more aggressive with the ball, why would you have put them on Attack duty? 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Prolix

[Sneaky Pete]

21 minutes ago, Prolix said:

why would you have put them on Attack duty?

He might want the attacking movement.

Unfortunately risk-taking is very much a binary question in FM. You can't really say "I want super-aggressive attacking movement to stretch the defense, but conservative decisions on the ball", even though e.g. Pep's wingers will make super aggressive off-the-ball runs IRL without going for speculative crosses or bone-headed shots/dribbles - barring a few specifically designed roles like the Raumdeuter or Poacher that kind of fill this niche.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Sneaky Pete

[wazzaflow10]

1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

What are your concerns about being more direct in your tactics?

I generally like to keep the ball. So if the opportunity to counter isn't immediate I want to retain possession and then play more fluidly. I'm expected to finish in the top 5 of 2. Bundesliga so my preseason was spent developing a tactic to beat what I expected to be a low block v most teams. 

 

6 minutes ago, Sneaky Pete said:

He might want the attacking movement.

Unfortunately risk-taking is very much a binary question in FM. You can't really say "I want super-aggressive attacking movement to stretch the defense, but conservative decisions on the ball", even though e.g. Pep's wingers will make super aggressive off-the-ball runs IRL without going for speculative crosses or bone-headed shots/dribbles - barring a few specifically designed roles like the Raumdeuter or Poacher that kind of fill this niche.

This exactly. Well said. 

[facman]

A WB(A) will look to ‘cross from the byline’, whilst a FB(S) won’t be as aggressive at crossing as a wingback. You could swap to a WB(S) and FB(A) who would both look to ‘Cross More Often’ but wouldn’t be coded to take it all the way to the byline. Adding the TI ‘Hit Early Crosses’ might also help.

[Prolix]

1 hour ago, Sneaky Pete said:

He might want the attacking movement.

PI - Get Further Forward?

Edited July 7, 2021 by Prolix

[CARRERA]

52 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

I generally like to keep the ball. So if the opportunity to counter isn't immediate I want to retain possession and then play more fluidly. I'm expected to finish in the top 5 of 2. Bundesliga so my preseason was spent developing a tactic to beat what I expected to be a low block v most teams.

Yeah, but you were complaining about not creating enough chances /scoring goals and that is most likely down to being too conservative and predictable. And due to the fact that your players are not allowed to play the final ball (or only at very risk free circumstances), the horrible crossing interactions you mentioned will happen more often.

[wazzaflow10]

14 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

Yeah, but you were complaining about not creating enough chances /scoring goals and that is most likely down to being too conservative and predictable. And due to the fact that your players are not allowed to play the final ball (or only at very risk free circumstances), the horrible crossing interactions you mentioned will happen more often.

I don't think shorter passing implies risk free circumstances. I should have willing off the ball runners between the W(A), SS(A) and WB(A).  A RPM and IW(S) should be positive enough to play through balls into those players (and If I remember correctly I believe I have PI's set so they are more direct or take more risks than the team instruction). my CM(d) FB(s) and CB's should be the only conservative ones in passing. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by wazzaflow10

[CARRERA]

24 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

I don't think shorter passing implies risk free circumstances.

it does, shorter passes (and play out of defence, as it reduces passing directness) are about maintaining possession and to grant that your players will look for safe passing options, which are often sideways or backward passes (as those player remain unmarked often). And at the point where the other team is caged in into their box, there will most likely never occure safe forward passing options as everyone is marked out, so players will look for desperate crosses or long shots. passing at risk on the other had will lead to more vertikal and diagonal balls.

Anyway, there might be other options to overcome the opposition, such as allowing more creative freedom or shoot on sight or set piece routines, but passing is proberbly the best one.

Btw: Heres actually the explanation from SI Online Manual.

Spoiler

Passing Directness

The Passing instructions above set the intention of the pass, the Directness instruction sets how it gets there. A more direct approach sees the ball played forward in a more vertical manner, with increased urgency, moving it from back to front as quickly as possible. Conversely, a shorter approach sees the ball moved patiently from side to side, probing for a way to unlock the defence.

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by CARRERA

[Sneaky Pete]

26 minutes ago, Prolix said:

PI - Get Further Forward?

That certainly helps to some extent, but to the best of my knowledge there is still a significant difference in the movement of e.g. an IF-S with GFF and an out-and-out IF-A.

[Guerin]

With crossing you need players running into the box en masse, rather than being already there or outside it. 

I found when I was using 4411 that the shadow striker and inverted winger support nullified each other. Kind of looked like the IW was moving into the same space that the SS was trying to move into. Try an inverted winger attack on that side so that he gets ahead of the SS rather than attempting to occupy the same channel. You might have to move the RPM to the left side and the Cdm to the right. Then I reckon just change the RW to a support duty.  

[Dotsworthy]

I use a similar set up with my current save and have found the following quite helpful:

For your IW, try asking him to sit narrower. I find it helps pin the opposing fb closer to the box and helps free up space for the WB.

It has been mentioned that playing more direct would help, but I would actually consider just upping the tempo instead, especially if you find your dominating possession. Playing more direct might make it more difficult for your wide players and wing backs to keep up with the play when you go forward.

Another trick to consider is focusing play down one side of the pitch, this helps draw the opposing players to one side and one well hit cross field ball will give the attacker more space to put in a cross.

[wazzaflow10]

23 hours ago, Guerin said:

With crossing you need players running into the box en masse, rather than being already there or outside it. 

I found when I was using 4411 that the shadow striker and inverted winger support nullified each other. Kind of looked like the IW was moving into the same space that the SS was trying to move into. Try an inverted winger attack on that side so that he gets ahead of the SS rather than attempting to occupy the same channel. You might have to move the RPM to the left side and the Cdm to the right. Then I reckon just change the RW to a support duty.  

Handwerker is too good going forward for this level to not use him as an outlet. I have Nurnberger or Geis as cover usually for that side because it tends to be exposed otherwise. I've read elswhere the RPM + IW(a) is a good combo in attack. I'll keep trying things. Eventually the tactic will click.