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Match 21: England vs Scotland - 8pm (BST) ITV1 LIVE FROM WEMBLEY


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If we finish 2nd don't we avoid France/Portugal/Germany in the next round? I don't like Southgate but maybe he has a plan. We didn't look interested in winning that one today.

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Just now, Barry Cartman said:

Not sure what the point off putting Saka on the bench is if you're not going to bring him on for either Shaw or Sterling when you want a goal 

Feel that you could level the same criticism about a decent chunk of this entire England squad, to be fair (not necessarily in terms of getting a goal, but in more general terms of changing things up during a game).

And yeah, Saka wasn't on the bench anyway :D 

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14 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

0-0 is absolutely nailed on.  Qualifies us both in 1st-2nd whatever happens in the other game.  Let the Czechs face Portugal/Germany/France and we can go and play Sweden or Slovakia or someone.  Gareth's played a blinder.

Spain is finishing 2nd in that group :brock:

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Just now, Adamm90 said:

If we finish 2nd don't we avoid France/Portugal/Germany in the next round? I don't like Southgate but maybe he has a plan. We didn't look interested in winning that one today.

Means away games though. But then again does home advantage really help England? I'm not 100% sure it does.

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Southgate was on the news this morning saying that Maguire would be getting some bites in this game. Thought as the time it sounded a bit disrespectful as it seemed to imply he would be getting on when the game is done and dusted. 

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2 minutes ago, Mr Adam said:

Saka wasn’t on the bench was he?

 

2 minutes ago, bigdunk said:

Saka wasn’t on the bench tonight. Him, White and Walker were the 3 to miss out.

 

2 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

Saka not even in the squad today

Fair enough didn't see the bench, thought someone in here mentioned bringing him on 

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It’s pretty clear Southgate wanted a draw. And that’s potentially not a bad idea at the end of the day. 
 

You don’t just make 2 subs, playing like that,  when you can make 5, unless you’re worried about conceding 

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55 minutes ago, Haguey said:

We're probably 2nd at worst anyway unless Scotland beat Croatia by 2 goals (I think? @Rob1981)

Beat the Czechs and we definitely top the group.  Draw and we definitely finish second.

If we lose we would be on 4 points, then looking at the result in the other game to see if we finish second or third.

So if Scotland v Croatia is a Croatia win, Croatia finish on 4 points but we are ahead of them on h2h record - stay 2nd.

If Scotland v Croatia is a draw, we stay 2nd with 4 points because they would each only have 2 points.

If Scotland v Croatia is a Scotland win it would come down to overall goal difference between us and them for 2nd and 3rd.  So depends on the goal margins in each game, how many we lose to the Czechs by and how many Scotland beat Croatia by.  Currently we are +1 and they are -2 so we would need a 3 goal swing across the two games.  EIther Scotland winning by two if we lose by one or Scotland winning by one is enough if we have lost by two.

I'll say again, if we don't go out attacking the Czechs and it isn't an open game there is no way they will be bothered about trying that hard to beat us when we can both take a point and know that the other two sides can't catch us.

Edited by Rob1981
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1 minute ago, Andrew_ said:

If Czech and Scotland both win, surely one of England or Scotland go out on 4 points?

One of us drops to with 4 points (as above), depending on GD... but probably still enough to get through as a best 3rd place team.  Probably but not definitely.

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3 minutes ago, JJ72 said:

We can’t beat Scotland, we’re going out whoever we play

Portugal famously crashed out of Euro 2016 after failing to beat Hungary, Iceland, Austria and Poland over 90 minutes

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2 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

Also, the people in here that clearly hate Southgate are genuinely pathetic :D

I HATE that our "easy" run in the WC is used against him. In the tournament before Southgate arrived we lose to ****ing Iceland. Southgate played a huge part in getting England to be a place where players actually want to be, whereas before England was a place where footballers went to be miserable.

It's fine to think that maybe he's not good enough now but it's not hard to show some respect towards him. Instead of telling him to **** off because he's not started your favourite player or not gone all out attack

He's just not good though. It's pretty obvious.

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It's not about sneaking out of the group, it's about actually having a decent chance in the knockout stages, which based on that, and a lot of other stuff, we won't have.

Edited by Baptista_8
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1 minute ago, ajw10 said:

Also, the people in here that clearly hate Southgate are genuinely pathetic :D

I HATE that our "easy" run in the WC is used against him. In the tournament before Southgate arrived we lose to ****ing Iceland. Southgate played a huge part in getting England to be a place where players actually want to be, whereas before England was a place where footballers went to be miserable.

It's fine to think that maybe he's not good enough now but it's not hard to show some respect towards him. Instead of telling him to **** off because he's not started your favourite player or not gone all out attack

Based on that showing, I’d say they look miserable still :D 

But you got more social media involved now, so it all looks happy and fun. 

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2 minutes ago, Wiggins Top Boys said:

I might be wrong but going by the noise outside I think Scotland might be the first team to have won the Euros without scoring a goal 

FFS just let us enjoy it for a night, will you? We've just gone to your place, played really well and given a great account of ourselves.

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Against the Czech's.

 

I think Tripper has to start at RB. Solid defensively and he offers something going forward as well as set piece options.

Wouldn't mind seeing Henderson and Bellingham in the middle. Rest Foden and Mount and play Sancho, Grealish & Saka behind DCL. I know Foden and Mount have been two of our better players but no harm in switching it up because what we've been doing hasn't been working other than for 10 or 15 minutes against Croatia.

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50 minutes ago, john1 said:

Not sure if it based on goal difference? Think Scotland need to win by 2 goals?

If Scotland win and England-Czechs isn't a draw, then Scotland would be tied with the loser of that game on 4 points and would need separating for 2nd/3rd place.

They look at h2h record first.

So if it's Scotland and Czechs tied on 4 points then Czechs would be 2nd and Scotland would be 3rd because Czechs beat Scotland in the h2h game

If it's Scotland and England tied on 4 points then the h2h game was a draw ... so then goes to overall GD across all games.

So in this scenario Scotland can finish above England with a 1-0 win as long as England lose by 2+ goals

If England lose by only 1 goal then Scotland need to score two.  And it might then come down to goals scored.

Edited by Rob1981
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4 minutes ago, Wiggins Top Boys said:

I might be wrong but going by the noise outside I think Scotland might be the first team to have won the Euros without scoring a goal 

:lol:

 

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2 minutes ago, CMOZZA said:

Against the Czech's.

 

I think Tripper has to start at RB. Solid defensively and he offers something going forward as well as set piece options.

Wouldn't mind seeing Henderson and Bellingham in the middle. Rest Foden and Mount and play Sancho, Grealish & Saka behind DCL. I know Foden and Mount have been two of our better players but no harm in switching it up because what we've been doing hasn't been working other than for 10 or 15 minutes against Croatia.

this is exactly what I'd do, also bringing in Chilwell on the left and Maguire for Mings.  

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Just now, ajw10 said:

Also, the people in here that clearly hate Southgate are genuinely pathetic :D

I HATE that our "easy" run in the WC is used against him. In the tournament before Southgate arrived we lose to ****ing Iceland. Southgate played a huge part in getting England to be a place where players actually want to be, whereas before England was a place where footballers went to be miserable.

It's fine to think that maybe he's not good enough now but it's not hard to show some respect towards him. Instead of telling him to **** off because he's not started your favourite player or not gone all out attack

He's clearly not a master tactician or some great mind and he would fail again at a club side. However, Germany have won a WC with a failed club manager. Wales were one of the best nations in Europe with CHRIS COLEMAN as manager, another useless club manager. Spain won everything with 'some guy' (del Bosque) everyone thought just had to put his best players out there, same while he was at Madrid. People don't rate Zidane despite 3 CLs IN A ROW cos 'he had Ronaldo lol'. People don't understand everything that goes into management and real life isn't like FM.

And then International management which is wholly different again. They get, what, 20 days a year with these players who mostly play for different clubs in different systems, etc. International management is so much about player management, which Southgate is proven to be good at. He deserves more respect. Tonight was a shambles but meh, Spain were just as poor against Sweden. Nothing to truly worry about.

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2 minutes ago, Haguey said:

He's clearly not a master tactician or some great mind and he would fail again at a club side. However, Germany have won a WC with a failed club manager. Wales were one of the best nations in Europe with CHRIS COLEMAN as manager, another useless club manager. Spain won everything with 'some guy' (del Bosque) everyone thought just had to put his best players out there, same while he was at Madrid. People don't rate Zidane despite 3 CLs IN A ROW cos 'he had Ronaldo lol'. People don't understand everything that goes into management and real life isn't like FM.

And then International management which is wholly different again. They get, what, 20 days a year with these players who mostly play for different clubs in different systems, etc. International management is so much about player management, which Southgate is proven to be good at. He deserves more respect. Tonight was a shambles but meh, Spain were just as poor against Sweden. Nothing to truly worry about.

You kinda lost the plot with del Bosque there.

I get the point but it'd be better if you hadn't name dropped him.

Edited by EnterUsernameHere
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2 minutes ago, martinji said:

this is exactly what I'd do, also bringing in Chilwell on the left and Maguire for Mings.  

I can’t see Southgate making 7 changes to the starting 11 so 9 seems an even further stretch. 

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1 minute ago, Haguey said:

He's clearly not a master tactician or some great mind and he would fail again at a club side. However, Germany have won a WC with a failed club manager. Wales were one of the best nations in Europe with CHRIS COLEMAN as manager, another useless club manager. Spain won everything with 'some guy' (del Bosque) everyone thought just had to put his best players out there, same while he was at Madrid. People don't rate Zidane despite 3 CLs IN A ROW cos 'he had Ronaldo lol'. People don't understand everything that goes into management and real life isn't like FM.

And then International management which is wholly different again. They get, what, 20 days a year with these players who mostly play for different clubs in different systems, etc. International management is so much about player management, which Southgate is proven to be good at. He deserves more respect. Tonight was a shambles but meh, Spain were just as poor against Sweden. Nothing to truly worry about.

A good insight into international management can be found in the BBC iPlayer documentary on Roberto Martinez with Belgium. Highly recommend it. 

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2 minutes ago, Haguey said:

He's clearly not a master tactician or some great mind and he would fail again at a club side. However, Germany have won a WC with a failed club manager. Wales were one of the best nations in Europe with CHRIS COLEMAN as manager, another useless club manager. Spain won everything with 'some guy' (del Bosque) everyone thought just had to put his best players out there, same while he was at Madrid. People don't rate Zidane despite 3 CLs IN A ROW cos 'he had Ronaldo lol'. People don't understand everything that goes into management and real life isn't like FM.

And then International management which is wholly different again. They get, what, 20 days a year with these players who mostly play for different clubs in different systems, etc. International management is so much about player management, which Southgate is proven to be good at. He deserves more respect. Tonight was a shambles but meh, Spain were just as poor against Sweden. Nothing to truly worry about.

Spain were better than this against Sweden overall, but yeah they did have some similar issues. Tonight was poor, he needs to try and fix some glaring issues, but it can happen, and has happened to better teams than us. 

We need to improve but we don't need to panic. 

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2 minutes ago, Bigwig said:

I can’t see Southgate making 7 changes to the starting 11 so 9 seems an even further stretch. 

oh I know.  Wasn't saying what I think Southgate will do.  

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4 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

You kinda lost the plot with del Bosque there.

I get the point but it'd be better if you hadn't name dropped him.

Well the nutters at Real must have thought that, cos they binned him off :D

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3 minutes ago, Haguey said:

International management is wholly different again. They get, what, 20 days a year with these players who mostly play for different clubs in different systems, etc. International management is so much about player management, which Southgate is proven to be good at. He deserves more respect. Tonight was a shambles but meh, Spain were just as poor against Sweden. Nothing to truly worry about.

:applause:

Very rare for someone to win an World Cup or a Euros by stringing together 6-7 brilliant performances in a row.  It just doesn't happen.

You turn in 2-3 brilliant performances and you stumble to the results you need in the other games. 

Tonight we stumbled but we got a result.  It's really not a big deal at all. 

People assuming now that we can't possibly go very far because we didn't smash 3-4 goals in a group game.

Like, have you watched international tournaments before?

 

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7 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

was he though? I don't think this is fair at all

I mean, he was literally walking for much of the match, including standing still whilst being passed around in his own half. Complete opposite of the first game where he got slated for his finishing touch (until he scored!) but was a constant threat

Made one notable run in behind (missed the ball) and tbf put a cross which should have been an assist when a Scot took a heavy touch right next to him, and that was basically it for the first seventy minutes. Sure, he looked reasonably good in the final fifteen when others were tired (he's not the only player we should have subbed with 5 subs), but it was embarrassing how little he contributed overall compared with Foden who was subbed on the hour mark. At least Kane taking rubbish touches whilst being man marked was coming looking for the ball (and keeping defenders occupied when he was standing still)

 

8 minutes ago, Mr Adam said:

It’s pretty clear Southgate wanted a draw. And that’s potentially not a bad idea at the end of the day. 
 

You don’t just make 2 subs, playing like that,  when you can make 5, unless you’re worried about conceding 

I was only half joking about the 4D chess to finish second! Although if he wanted a draw he could have given Hendo a run out :D 

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2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

:applause:

Very rare for someone to win an World Cup or a Euros by stringing together 6-7 brilliant performances in a row.  It just doesn't happen.

You turn in 2-3 brilliant performances and you stumble to the results you need in the other games. 

Tonight we stumbled but we got a result.  It's really not a big deal at all. 

People assuming now that we can't possibly go very far because we didn't smash 3-4 goals in a group game.

Like, have you watched international tournaments before?

 

I think the issue is that people view tournaments through the nation they support. They forget about France's issues during the group stages of the last WC, or how poor Portugal were for pretty much the entire tournament.

Every tournament there's always a team that looks like real contenders and fall away. Croatia were one, we were in 2004

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Just now, Rob1981 said:

:applause:

Very rare for someone to win an World Cup or a Euros by stringing together 6-7 brilliant performances in a row.  It just doesn't happen.

You turn in 2-3 brilliant performances and you stumble to the results you need in the other games. 

Tonight we stumbled but we got a result.  It's really not a big deal at all. 

People assuming now that we can't possibly go very far because we didn't smash 3-4 goals in a group game.

Like, have you watched international tournaments before?

 

Exactly.

I've backed England to go far in the tournament, and nothing about tonight has changed how I feel about their chances. Two clean sheets. Still got several gears to go up. No reason to panic at all. 

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1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

:applause:

Very rare for someone to win an World Cup or a Euros by stringing together 6-7 brilliant performances in a row.  It just doesn't happen.

You turn in 2-3 brilliant performances and you stumble to the results you need in the other games. 

Tonight we stumbled but we got a result.  It's really not a big deal at all. 

People assuming now that we can't possibly go very far because we didn't smash 3-4 goals in a group game.

Like, have you watched international tournaments before?

 

You are one of the people who will just always miss the point when it comes to Southgate. It’s not that it’s just one poor performance, and we can now win the rest. It’s that it’s the same glaring failures he has shown multiple times in the crunch games. From open play, we are reguarly so blunt and clueless under him. Our set up from set plays are great though, and helped us get so far in the World Cup. Nations league, blunt with other things. Tonight, blunt yet again. 

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Just now, ajw10 said:

I think the issue is that people view tournaments through the nation they support. They forget about France's issues during the group stages of the last WC, or how poor Portugal were for pretty much the entire tournament.

Every tournament there's always a team that looks like real contenders and fall away. Croatia were one, we were in 2004

France maybe. I'm not sure anyone forgets how poor Portugal were though. 

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Like, tonight wasn’t us being blunt and strong defensively. It was blunt and big chances falling to Dykes/Adams. Just they lack the quality to punish us, which the big nations won’t as we’ve seen in past.

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1 minute ago, ajw10 said:

I think the issue is that people view tournaments through the nation they support. They forget about France's issues during the group stages of the last WC, or how poor Portugal were for pretty much the entire tournament.

Every tournament there's always a team that looks like real contenders and fall away. Croatia were one, we were in 2004

Even Peak Spain opened their first ever tournament win with a loss to Switzerland

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2 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

France maybe. I'm not sure anyone forgets how poor Portugal were though. 

They must do, otherwise people wouldn't say daft things like "England can't win it if they can't even beat Scotland!"

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Do people actually think England have a chance this tournament? I've been away from the england scene for awhile but it seems there are some.

We've got one of the worst defences and midfields in generations lol. And the world class front line isnt that world class. every single one of them are overhyped and probably overpaid.

And a defensive manager who'd rather keep rice and phillips on anyway.

Edited by foofighter23
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1 minute ago, enigmatic said:

Even Peak Spain opened their first ever tournament win with a loss to Switzerland

France got to the final in 06 with a genuine headcase in charge and with Zidane playing well in about 3 games

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We’ve got a chance, as we have the quality and it’s a 90 minute game where anything can happen. Have we got the manager to go with it though if we have to face say 2 or even 3 big sides, no. Avoid them, and we have a chance.

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