Totally fed up of the game, decided to try to get its secrets revealed through analysing the tactics

[TaPele]

It's the same every season.

In this case in particular I moved from Maidstone to Barnet. What was left of that first season managing the team turned out pretty well 11P/5W/4D/2L. Only conceded three goals and scored 11. Excellent defensive performance.

Then, great pre-season, having drawn with much bigger teams, few goals conceded again. But then, (as always) the league kicks off and overnight the super strong team begins to lose, concedeng many goals, few clean sheets and few goals scored. Also, giving away ridiculous penalties and with that, precious points.

I'm simply looking forward to playing a counter-attacking system, soaking up pressure and responding with a quick and lethal transition.

Here's my tactic: https://imgur.com/P9B26pS

 

(rashidi: edit) 
(added the screenshot so others can see it without clicking on a link)

[herne79]

Counter attacking systems tend to play with a deep block.  This is so the team can draw in the opposition, make them over commit players in attack before you win the ball back and make a quick break in, as you say, a "lethal transition".

Starting with the Positive mentality, as you have done, means that you set by default a relatively high block.  When you pick a mentality, that sets a whole host of team instructions which will change as you change mentality.  On the tactics screen, look at what changes as you change mentality.

Now that's not to say you can't use the Positive mentality for a counter attacking system, but it can cause other challenges which you'd need to overcome.

The main issue you are having imo is that it isn't that clear in the tactics creator how to go about setting up what you want to achieve.  This leaves you scratching your head wondering what to do and end up picking things which you think should be ok but turn out to cause issues.  We've all been there.  As a starting point I suggest you read the post linked below (there is a further link embedded in it which you may also find useful).  It talks about the principles of setting up a deep block using the Cautious mentality.

 

[Tsuru]

I also play in England´s lower leagues and I tried to create a counter attacking system - based on the idea that I have a team that is not good enough to play on a more proactive way (aka high press). However I was facing some serious problems because my team also isn´t good enough to play on a more reactive way (aka low block), we don´t have a midfield that can absorb pressure well, our centre backs and fullbacks are also not very good defensively, and our strikers are not good enough to take advantages of the probably few chances we will create. Not just that, but I believe this kind of system can be kind of tricky to set up - I always ended with a team that simply hoofed the ball foward on the wrong time and place, probably due to low player quality.

I am not saying you should not play on the counter - who am I - I am just saying that maybe if that strategy does not work, you should think about a more simple/basic and not so specific one. Sometimes we only think about black or white, but there is also gray  

Edited June 16, 2021 by Tsuru

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, TaPele said:

I moved from Maidstone to Barnet

 

7 hours ago, TaPele said:

I'm simply looking forward to playing a counter-attacking system, soaking up pressure and responding with a quick and lethal transition

Before discussing potential issues in your tactic specifically, I want to warn you that playing a defensive (low-block) style of football - whether counter-attacking or otherwise - with a lower league side can prove problematic even if the tactic itself is really well designed. Simply because in order to defend successfully over extended periods of a match, you need players both in defense and midfield who are good at the art of defending. Otherwise, they won't be able to deal with constant pressure from the opposition and will eventually concede. Plus, even if you defend well from open play, you still have to be prepared for a great number of opposition set pieces (primarily corners) as an additional threat to your goal. And given the relatively low quality of players in lower leagues, the key question is do you really have players who are able to play defensive football successfully, regardless of the tactic. 

Now on the tactic...

More direct passing + higher tempo + positive mentality all used at the same time can be a bit too much even if you want to play fast and direct counter-attacking football. Because both direct passing and a high team mentality already make tempo pretty high, which means that your attacking play is too speculative and thus likely to make you lose the ball (possession) much more than would be necessary. The problem gets even worse with your transitional instructions such as distribute quickly and (directly) to target man. Playing counter-attacking football does not mean just hitting the ball forward at all costs and in every single situation and hoping that your forward(s) will somehow find their way through the opposition defense and score. FM is too serious a game and things do not work in such naive way. On top of that, even if the tactic is "perfect", counter-attacking football can be successful only when you play against attacking opposition that leaves enough space for you to take advantage of on the counter. But if you play against an also defensive opponent, what's the point of a counter-attacking style then? 

Then you use the force opposition outside - i.e. narrow defensive width - while playing in an already narrow formation. This means that your wing-backs, as the only wide players in the system, have to deal with too much pressure by being constantly outnumbered on the flanks (except when the opposition also plays in a narrow formation). For that reason, I would recommend leaving defensive width on default (standard).

And then the setup of roles and duties as the most important part of any tactic. You want to play a low-block/defensive style of football, right? But then look at your midfield selection of roles: your central and nominally holding CM is a BWM, which is the most aggressive of all midfield roles in terms of pressing and tackling, whereas your other (lateral) CMs are the roaming BBMs. Does such combination of midfield roles really provides a solid structure that is vital for any defensive style of football?

In the back-line, you use a CB on cover duty even though you play with a low D-line (plus without a DM). There is no need for a cover duty in that kind of setup. Therefore, either play all 3 CBs on defend duty or the central one may even be a stopper.

[Freakiie]

Defensive football requires proper adjustment to the opposition. As Rashidi has shown in his playthroughs where he takes a more defensive minded approach, properly analysing the opposition, identifying how they create their chances and properly using OIs to cancel out these instructions is of vital importance to effectively play in a low block.

As for your attacking intent, you have 1 guy that wants to score goals. What happens when he has a bad game? What happens if the opposition mark him out of the game? What happens if he doesn't score for a couple games, lacks confidence and goes on a dry streak? Your tactic has no plan B. You just have a whole lot of runners, a set up to try and throw the ball at your TM and hoping that he puts it in front of the SS. Let the TM push further forward so he can become a goal threat, change the roles of one of your CMs to something more aggressive so they make actual runs into the box, anything to give you a second goal scoring option.

Also, counters and deadly transitions still heavily rely on your opposition. I don't know what the expectations for Barnet are, but unless you're a relegation candidate there will be plenty of teams that will not try to attack you too much. Which means that even if you sit deep they won't dedicate that many players forward, making it hard to hit them on the break, especially when you only have a single attack duty. What is your plan to score when you actually have possession? Whether you want to rely on counters or not, you will at some point in time have possession and generally you want your team to be able to create something in those moments as well.

Finally, as Tsuru pointed out, do you actually have the quality for this kind of a set up? Do your wing backs actually have attributes going forward? Do they have the physical ability to actually keep going up and down a flank for 90 minutes? Do you actually have players that accurately can play the up field ball to initiate a counter or is the level of quality to the point that players are just hoofing it forwards and you just have to hope you get lucky that a clearance turns into an accidental pass? Is your SS good enough that he reliably can score the rare number of chances he will get in a set up like this?

[koimes]

21 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

You want to play a low-block/defensive style of football, right? But then look at your midfield selection of roles: your central and nominally holding CM is a BWM, which is the most aggressive of all midfield roles in terms of pressing and tackling, whereas your other (lateral) CMs are the roaming BBMs. Does such combination of midfield roles really provides a solid structure that is vital for any defensive style of football?

Hi ED, given OP's tactic, what would be preferable central midfield roles for this style of play?

[Experienced Defender]

1 minute ago, koimes said:

Hi ED, given OP's tactic, what would be preferable central midfield roles for this style of play?

Different combinations are possible, so there is no definite answer. Anyway, if you want any further and more detailed discussion about that, please start your own separate thread topic.

[Tsuru]

1 hora atrás, Freakiie disse:

Do your wing backs actually have attributes going forward? Do they have the physical ability to actually keep going up and down a flank for 90 minutes?

Or even if they don´t have the best attributes for that, a covering/protecting system could help them a lot on narrow formations, allowing them to attack and avoid exposing the flanks too much. The Carrileros for example could do it very well and they are not so hard to find on lower leagues  

However I agree that two BBMs cannot help very much, specially on a 3 CB system.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Tsuru

[TaPele]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

your central and nominally holding CM is a BWM, which is the most aggressive of all midfield roles in terms of pressing and tackling, whereas your other (lateral) CMs are the roaming BBMs. Does such combination of midfield roles really provides a solid structure that is vital for any defensive style of football?

Which combination of roles would work here, then?. My idea was that the BWM won the ball by aggressively tackling the opposition and then, he passes it to any of the BBM who rush towards the goal. When I was in Maidstone, I had a DLP(Def) in that position and he always performed strikingly bad, rarely getting more than 7 points. So my reasoning was the following: "if I'm seeking not to have the ball, then a DLP is useless, that should be why he performs bad", and that's why I chose another role. If the opposition will have the ball, someone has to be in charge of getting it back. 

 

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In the back-line, you use a CB on cover duty even though you play with a low D-line

Here you're right. I've never thought about it.

The point of the target man is that when the other team attacks and we win the ball near our box, the target man holds it waiting for it's partners to go up the pitch and the pass it. But that never happens. That's why I wanted to get "revealed FM's secrets" because if roles worked as the game suggest, everything would work right

Edited June 16, 2021 by TaPele

[Experienced Defender]

17 minutes ago, TaPele said:

Which combination of roles would work here, then?

As I said in a reply to another person, different combinations are possible. But here are examples of combos that could suit your intended style of play well:

BWMsu   CMde   BWMsu

OR:

BWMsu   CMde   DLPsu

OR:

BWMsu    CMde    CAR

OR:

CAR     CMde     DLPsu

Notice that in all 4 examples, the central role is CM on defend duty, because you need a real holding player in the middle for such playing style. 

23 minutes ago, TaPele said:

The point of the target man is that when the other team attacks and we win the ball near our box, the target man holds it waiting for it's partners to go up the pitch and the pass it. But that never happens. That's why I wanted to get "revealed FM's secrets" because if roles worked as the game suggest, everything would work right

Each role works/behaves differently within different tactical setups. That's why I always insist on looking at tactics as interactive systems (as opposed to viewing things in isolation). 

[TaPele]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

As I said in a reply to another person, different combinations are possible. But here are examples of combos that could suit your intended style of play well:

BWMsu   CMde   BWMsu

OR:

BWMsu   CMde   DLPsu

OR:

BWMsu    CMde    CAR

OR:

CAR     CMde     DLPsu

Notice that in all 4 examples, the central role is CM on defend duty, because you need a real holding player in the middle for such playing style. 

Each role works/behaves differently within different tactical setups. That's why I always insist on looking at tactics as interactive systems (as opposed to viewing things in isolation). 

Why wouldn't two BBM work? Why two BWM work? What does the CM(D) do that's so useful? How would a DLP fit in a system that seeks not to have the ball? How does the carrilero work? I'm asking that much because I thought to know the roles, but everytime I plan something reasonable to do with them, it fails as if what FM says wasn't true...

Thanks

Edited June 16, 2021 by TaPele

[TaPele]

4 hours ago, Freakiie said:

I don't know what the expectations for Barnet are, but unless you're a relegation candidate there will be plenty of teams that will not try to attack you too much

Barnet is among the top trhee teams of the league. So, maybe that makes the other teams to play defensively, leaving no space at their backs and therefore making it impossible to suceed with quick transitions? Actually, I've had a few games where the other team was supposed to be playing defensively and then it turned towards a more offensive style, allowing us to score and win.

But you might be right... then what do you think about changing the mentality to attacking? Actually in Maidstone I had a pretty similar formation with attacking mentality which didn't turned out well. My players have got pretty high mentals so it might work, a strong and solid defensive block of players (when defending) and then a quick and lethal block of players playing with the ball up in the pitch. Maybe changing the SS to an AF?

Edited June 16, 2021 by TaPele

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, TaPele said:

Why wouldn't two BBM work?

Two BBMs can work in a different style of play. But you want to play a defensive style of football, which requires a more solid and stable midfield structure. I already explained that in my first comment, so please read it again. 

 

2 hours ago, TaPele said:

Why two BWM work?

Because in this case they are not supposed to act as a holding midfielder. Instead, the CM on defend duty between them is supposed to be the holding one and thus allow the BWMs on support to chase the opposition with less risk. 

Selection of roles/duties is always relative to the style of football you want to implement. 

2 hours ago, TaPele said:

What does the CM(D) do that's so useful?

Acts as a real holding midfield role. Because unlike the BWM, he is not too aggressive when defending and therefore keeps his defensive position better. 

 

2 hours ago, TaPele said:

How would a DLP fit in a system that seeks not to have the ball?

None said that you have to use a DLP. I just gave you examples of possible midfield role combos, some of which can employ a DLP (if you want to use the role). 

 

2 hours ago, TaPele said:

How does the carrilero work?

The carrilero looks to provide defensive cover for an attack-minded wing-back or fullback on his side/flank along with providing a relatively safe link between deeper and more advanced midfield areas. 

 

2 hours ago, TaPele said:

I'm asking that much because I thought to know the roles, but everytime I plan something reasonable to do with them, it fails as if what FM says wasn't true

As I stressed in an earlier comment, the problem is that you think about roles in isolation, whereas they work through interaction between one another. Plus, behavior of any role is also affected by the player playing that role. 

[zyfon5]

20 hours ago, TaPele said:

It's the same every season.

In this case in particular I moved from Maidstone to Barnet. What was left of that first season managing the team turned out pretty well 11P/5W/4D/2L. Only conceded three goals and scored 11. Excellent defensive performance.

Then, great pre-season, having drawn with much bigger teams, few goals conceded again. But then, (as always) the league kicks off and overnight the super strong team begins to lose, concedeng many goals, few clean sheets and few goals scored. Also, giving away ridiculous penalties and with that, precious points.

I'm simply looking forward to playing a counter-attacking system, soaking up pressure and responding with a quick and lethal transition.

Here's my tactic: https://imgur.com/P9B26pS

 

A few questions about your tactic:

1. The tactic only has one TM(s) up top which means you are totally reliant on him to have any attack going. Unless he is miles ahead of everyone in the league, this is an unreliable attacking plan as defenders can push up their defensive line knowing that there is no threat of players running behind due to the nature of the TM(s) to drop deep. Maybe having a striker combination up top will be more beneficial? This also will have the added benefit of allowing the two strikers constantly pressuring the CB preventing them from building up through the centre and allow your midfielders to provide cover to the flanks in a narrow formation.

2. Tempo: I notice that you are playing a high tempo here which might be not necessary as they might rush forward too easily resulting in turnover of possessions. Observe matches and adjust accordingly.

3. Low block: Sitting too deep in a narrow formation like this can result in the opposition deep lying midfileder having too much space and can easily switch the ball to another flank to exploit numerical overloads at the flank. You might want to adjust the defensive line so that your team is not so vulnerable to these type of plays by constantly harassing the opposition midfielders.

4. Do you have the right type of players for these type of tactics? The midfielders are crucial for the success of this tactic. They need to have good defensive attributes and high workrate and teamwork.

[TaPele]

17 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

They need to have good defensive attributes and high workrate and teamwork.

Here are the screenshots. To me they are blooming good:

Work rate: https://imgur.com/4U5VYJf

Team work: https://imgur.com/R5vU6XI

 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by TaPele

[Rashidi]

@TaPeleYou can always add screenshots without having to link to Imgur.. It makes it easier for people to understand quickly without having to click on another link and having to come back. The feature is there whenever you create a post, just add an image.

On to the tactic:

Defensive styles in lower league are attainable in a load of ways. However when i look at your tactic i struggle to see how you will create goals apart from a hopeful punt up the pitch to a targetman who will undoubtably receive some attention. Then we also need to consider whether your targetman can drop back and link up play.  The logic is sound but here you are depending solely on one player.

We generally want the ball to get up the pitch quickly and you essentially want to avoid team instructions like play out of defence, which you have done. All your goals seem to depend on a single combination to work well in all games. If you are expecting your wingbacks to get up the pitch and then create chances by working their way into the box with cutbacks and crosses you are moving into another tactical system.  

Those wingbacks are gonna bomb up the pitch on a positive mentality and try to beat players and work their way to the byeline. In some games it may ok, in others it could be an issue when the opposition plays a 4231 for example or even a 442.  An opposition setup with 2 players on the flanks will force your wingbacks into a more defensive stance.

 

The choice of a BWM in the centre is a bit aggressive, he could be a liability if he is being pulled apart. Then you have two box to box midfielders who could roam up and down. You could just go and choose a CM(D) or even move him to a DM slot as a DM.  Change the two roles to CM(S) perhaps one could be a Box to Box and another a CM(S). 

Now you have a dedicated DM to sit in front of the 3 DMs this gives you a bit more latitude to push up the pitch with the 2 CM(S). Finally since you could be depending on the delivery of the wingbacks you don't want them to run out of passing options otherwise they might just end up hoofing the ball. So here the focus play instruction will help. Focus play left and right, this way, whenever the ball is out on the flanks, central midfielders drift towards that side of the flank to support play. Now you have a solid centre which supports the wingbacks.

This means that support will come either side and you have two solid options at building up.  Personally I don't play lone striker systems in counter attacking systems at any level, I much prefer two striker setups and its pretty easy to set yours up with those kind of options later. 

Finally what is a low block?  A  low block is one where your defensive line doesn't push too high up the pitch and your line of engagement waits for the opposition to commit to a specific zone before closing down ideally this zone is typically in your half. However its also possible to play with a low defensive line with a high line of pressure. But that is a discussion for another day.

If you want to set up a low block you need to remember that a low defensive line isn't very necessary when you are playing with a DM all you need is a standard defensive line and you just need to tell your midfielders to adopt a standard line of engagement. That should be enough.

[TaPele]

Well, lately I've changed my tactics based on some of your tips. Anyway, it's kinda more of the same. 90% of the passes goes to the opposition, several games lost because of ridiculous penalties.

Maybe I simply have to understand that the game works raising your lines at the highest point of the pitch with a positive/attacking mentality and that's it, you can win the Premier in the blink of an eye. Otherwise, it's not a game it's mathematics where you have to find the perfect formula out of the blue (because what the game says has nothing to do whith how games play out) and after countless tries.

I mean, according to the tactic it's a piece of cake, defenders defend (maybe not making fouls inside of the box) the BMW tackle the oposition and steal the ball and the strikers just shoot inside of that rectangle called goal. Oh, and out of the reach of the man standing in front of it. But no, it's become trigonometry, this role with this mentality doesn't work with this duty (why?!) and then blah, blah.

Here's my new tactic. Let's see if you can spot something...

 

[afced7]

Wasn't the general advice not to use a positive mentality? I don't think any single setting changes more about a tactic than mentality. Anyway I suspect that you're exaggerating about 90% of passes going to the opposition, but you can't really expect a particularly high pass completion % with a positive mentality and more direct passing. The recent match analysis suggests that the tactic is performing roughly how you want it to.

[TaPele]

40 minutes ago, afced7 said:

Wasn't the general advice not to use a positive mentality? I don't think any single setting changes more about a tactic than mentality. Anyway I suspect that you're exaggerating about 90% of passes going to the opposition, but you can't really expect a particularly high pass completion % with a positive mentality and more direct passing. The recent match analysis suggests that the tactic is performing roughly how you want it to.

Maybe there lies the error... I think that if I set a cautious mentality players will waste time and do everything in a much slower tempo, that's why I fear using cautious mentality.

[CARRERA]

33 minutes ago, TaPele said:

Maybe I simply have to understand that the game works raising your lines at the highest point of the pitch with a positive/attacking mentality and that's it

If I was you, i would start out simple and figure out my setup of roles and duties before adding any instructions. 

You have to make a choice on your mentality tho. Mentality does influence the players decisionmaking and comes with a basic framework of instructions that supply the demands of the decisionmaking. While instructions can be adjusted by the tactics creator, the overall decisionmaking of your team is primarily determined by the mentality setting (yes, you can work with the duties to some extend). 

So to make a decision on your mentality, you need to understand what decisions to expect. To keep it simple, lets take a pass: on a higher mentality, a player will primarily look for a pass played forward in the direction of the others teams goal no matter of its length. On a lower mentality, a player is primarily looking for a safe pass also know as a sideways / backward pass. And the same scheme of decisions apply on the defensive phase.

The best synergy can be created, if you pick the mentality according to your overall idea of how you want your team to play. An indication could be the time your team will spend in a specific phase of play by expetation. In other words, if you want to primarily invite preassure, its best represented by the lower end mentalties, while applying preassure is best represented on the higher end of mentalities.

Finally, slightly adjust your tactics by using instructions until your desired style of play is achieved.

 

[afced7]

15 minutes ago, TaPele said:

Maybe there lies the error... I think that if I set a cautious mentality players will waste time and do everything in a much slower tempo, that's why I fear using cautious mentality.

Well if you find that happens, you can just up the tempo slightly.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, TaPele said:

Well, lately I've changed my tactics based on some of your tips. Anyway, it's kinda more of the same. 90% of the passes goes to the opposition

Well, you yourself have decided to play a style of football that relies on a speculative and rather long(ish) passing style (as opposed to possession football). Plus, you are still using the quick GK distribution to the target man, so I really don't see what you are surprised about. 

Anyway, if you still want to play simple and direct counter-attacking football in the 532 (or any two-striker) formation, playing the TM also on attack duty would make more sense (with the "hit early crosses" as an instruction to potentially consider). 

And if your strikers are both right-footed, I would rather have the TM on the left and AF on the right than the other way around. Like this:

TMat  < >  AF

[TaPele]

Now, what should I do with this player?! In the last two games he conceded a penalty and I'm pretty sure he's given away more! I'm seriously thinking of taking him out of the team but those high ball stats are quite good. In fact he often wins the ball in the air. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by TaPele

[TaPele]

8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, you yourself have decided to play a style of football that relies on a speculative and rather long(ish) passing style (as opposed to possession football).

Well, i thought direct passes meant "long balls to your players high up on the pitch". Instead of that my players throw the ball to the Moon and the opposite team always end up with it.

Edited June 17, 2021 by TaPele

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, TaPele said:

I mean, according to the tactic it's a piece of cake

Who said it's a "piece of cake"? If tactical creation was an easy undertaking, then everybody could be a football manager (coach). And not only in FM but in real life as well.

It can become relatively easy, but only for people who understand the logic of football and its tactical aspect. But in order to understand something inherently complex, you have to be willing to consistently learn (including through trial and error). 

When I first came to the forum, I was also in search of tactical help and advice. But instead of complaining and making pointless rants, I put all my efforts into learning from more experienced players and tacticians. And that paid off relatively quickly. 

[afced7]

That's the trade off, you move the ball forward more quickly, but the chance of successfully completing a long pass is much lower. You can't really expect to play direct counter attacking football and have a lot of possession with a high pass completion %. 

[TaPele]

6 minutes ago, afced7 said:

That's the trade off, you move the ball forward more quickly, but the chance of successfully completing a long pass is much lower. You can't really expect to play direct counter attacking football and have a lot of possession with a high pass completion %. 

I don't care about possession, on the contrary, I prefer not to have it. I only want my players to be clinical and to move the ball forward but to their teammates not to the other team. It's clear both in the game and in real life when a player wants to clear the ball vs. when they want to pass the ball to a player far away from them, and my players always seem to be trying to get rid of the ball

Edited June 17, 2021 by TaPele

[Experienced Defender]

28 minutes ago, TaPele said:

Well, i thought direct passes meant "long balls to your players high up on the pitch"

Maybe it would work that way if your team was alone on the pitch (without the opposition). Or if the opposition was so kind as to allow your players to pass the ball freely wherever and whoever they wanted to. So for example, when your keeper takes a long kick to the target man, opposition defenders should tell him: "Don't worry mate, we are not going to attack you, so you can receive the ball completely unchallenged and do whatever you want. Because we don't want to make your manager angry". I mean, come on! 

 

28 minutes ago, TaPele said:

Instead of that my players throw the ball to the Moon and the opposite team always end up with it

In order for more direct and longer passes to be successful, it logically requires a player making the pass to be good at passing and technique, to begin with. And even then, the inherently speculative nature of those passes makes them more difficult to succeed compared to shorter, possession-friendly passes. And given that your tactic also employs a high team mentality (positive) - which automatically means a proportionally higher tempo - it's quite normal that the accuracy of those direct/long passes cannot be high. Lowering the mentality to Balanced should therefore help more of your passes to find their target (because Balanced mentality has a slightly lower tempo than positive).

[TaPele]

2 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

30 minutes ago, TaPele said:

Well, i thought direct passes meant "long balls to your players high up on the pitch"

Maybe it would work that way if your team was alone on the pitch (without the opposition). Or if the opposition was so kind as to allow your players to pass the ball freely wherever and whoever they wanted to. So for example, when your keeper takes a long kick to the target man, opposition defenders should tell him: "Don't worry mate, we are not going to attack you, so you can receive the ball completely unchallenged and do whatever you want. Because we don't want to make your manager angry". I mean, come on! 

I like that you've got my tone. But seriously, what I meant is that there might be cases in which the other team press you and your defenders kick the ball out of the stadium, but every time the have the ball they do so! I don't expect a precise 50mts. pass whenever my team has the ball, but at least kick it to one of our players and not to the other team's defenders...

[Experienced Defender]

2 minutes ago, TaPele said:

But seriously, what I meant is that there might be cases in which the other team press you and your defenders kick the ball out of the stadium, but every time the have the ball they do so! I don't expect a precise 50mts. pass whenever my team has the ball, but at least kick it to one of our players and not to the other team's defenders

If I remember correctly, you are managing a lower league club. I am sorry, but you can hardly expect players on that level to play as you would like. Because they lack not only passing and other technical attributes, but also tactical intelligence, including composure and decisions, which are key attributes for what you want.

Anyway, try the suggestions I gave you previously and see what happens:

- Balanced mentality instead of Positive

- The attack duty for the target man (instead of support)

- add the Hit early crosses

- remove the quick GK distribution to target man

- swap the sides of your strikers (TM on the left, AF on the right)

- move both DL and LOE by just 1 notch (standard D-line & lower LOE)

Watch if there is any improvement after you implement these tweaks and report back 

[Freakiie]

1 hour ago, TaPele said:

Now, what should I do with this player?! In the last two games he conceded a penalty and I'm pretty sure he's given away more! I'm seriously thinking of taking him out of the team but those high ball stats are quite good. In fact he often wins the ball in the air. 

The guy dreads big matches, is somewhat inconsistent and... well pretty poor all around stat wise, just like you'd expect in the lower leagues. He'll be solid on headers with that jumping reach, but everything else? He's relatively slow, poor concentration and poor positioning, it's no surprise he's going to be caught out on the regular.

On top of that he also has the dives into tackles PPM, making him more likely to commit to harder tackles, which with a good chance of him being out of position is not gonna help your cause. Combine that with your low block and there's a good chance he won't engage players until they're close to the penalty area and as a result he can cause a lot of penalties.

You can try telling him to ease off tackles and hope he won't dive into tackles in the penalty area all that often, which might help you out a bit, but in the end it's a risk you take with the tactic you've chosen.

[TaPele]

And what about of this guy. He isn't that bad mentally and has just given away a penalty. Is there any hidden instruction turned on like "make fouls inside the box"? (irony) You'll probably answer me that it's because of the low line but that's what I meant. It's disappointing, but the game kinda forces you to play with the line pretty up on the pitch without much cons. Every team playing that way that I've seen scores thousands of goals and is quite solid defensively, as if they were immune to counters.

 

[herne79]

6 hours ago, TaPele said:

It's disappointing, but the game kinda forces you to play with the line pretty up on the pitch without much cons

You've been saying that for weeks and it's as incorrect now as it was then.  The game doesn't force you to do anything, there are only two issues here: 1) your own lack of knowledge to do what you want to do and 2) your seeming inability to take advice on board, learn from it and apply it to your team.  Don't believe me?  In the very first reply to you in this topic you were advised that using the Positive mentality will cause you issues and yet 24 hours later you're still trying to use the Positive mentality. 

You were also given a link to a post which tells you how to set up an effective counter attacking tactic, did you read it?  What lessons did you learn from it?

This thread is going in exactly the same direction as all your previous threads - you tell us the issue, you get loads of advice, you seemingly don't learn from that advice and continue blaming the game for your own failings.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but until you stop blaming the game you'll continue to fail.  The game is not perfect and yes it is easier to set up a more aggressive tactic but that does not mean we can only play in that manner.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

9 hours ago, TaPele said:

And what about of this guy. He isn't that bad mentally and has just given away a penalty. Is there any hidden instruction turned on like "make fouls inside the box"? (irony) You'll probably answer me that it's because of the low line but that's what I meant. It's disappointing, but the game kinda forces you to play with the line pretty up on the pitch without much cons. Every team playing that way that I've seen scores thousands of goals and is quite solid defensively, as if they were immune to counters.

I mean, even world class defenders will commit fouls and give away penalties from time to time. Much like their real life counterparts, simulated players aren't perfect.

As for tactics with high lines being immune to counters, I cannot agree. A very significant portion of the goals my defensively solid Deportivo La Coruna side concedes over the years has been from counter attacks.

[pheelf]

A lot of the advice offered by other contributors has been excellent but somehow it's still not helping you to overcome your issues.

I feel that you are over complicating things and trying to run before you can walk.

For e.g., Why a 5-3-2?

Your choice of formation is the most important of all the decisions you will make when it comes to determining how your team will defend. If you want your team to soak up pressure and hit teams on the counter I feel that the 5-3-2WB is a poor choice for that task for a number of reasons.

1) Wingbacks are easily overloaded on the flanks

2) No defensive screen with a dedicated DM and hence more opportunity for the opposition to control the golden zone

3) Loads of space for the opposition to exploit in the channels between your wingbacks and central defenders

4) No early width

Are you analyzing your games and watching them in detail?

I would personally just start again if I were you and build from there.

1) Choose a formation more suited to the task of soaking up pressure and hitting teams on the counter (like a 4-1-2-3DM, 4-4-2DM, 4-1-4-1, 4-2-3-1DM etc.)

2) Start with the Balanced mentality

3) Play with generic roles (fullbacks, central midfielders etc.)

4) Play with no TIs or PIs and only add them once you have identified a need to add them after WATCHING your matches

That way you're not shooting in the dark and making changes based on theory but actually making changes based on what you are seeing which is the best way to learn.

However, all that depends on you and your willingness to accept what others are telling you.

As long as you keep holding onto ideas such as "you have to play a high line to be successful" then you won't make any progress.

All the best

[TaPele]

3 hours ago, pheelf said:

For e.g., Why a 5-3-2?

I thought that because of the five defenders it would mean a solid defense...

[Experienced Defender]

22 minutes ago, TaPele said:

I thought that because of the five defenders it would mean a solid defense...

Solidity of a defense depends on a lot more factors than the mere number of defenders within a formation. 

[Tsuru]

33 minutos atrás, TaPele disse:

I thought that because of the five defenders it would mean a solid defense...

I have heard many times that playing with a narrow formation could create a problem for my fullbacks/wingbacks which would be overloaded on the flanks, that is, we could suffer with many crossings and goals from headings.

I have been playing with formations that use wingers and I have been suffering with flank overloads, crossings and goals from headings since the first season. And in many cases I have used conservative roles for my fullbacks - and I have good/tall CBs with nice attributes on Jumping and Heading.

You see, there are much more complex factors on a tactic so it can be difficult to say, like, "more defenders mean being more solid defensively". Sometimes yes, it can be, but it depends on the way you set them, the quality of players you have, the expectations for your team on the league, morale...so sometimes having three CBs are much more difficult to manage than two CBs + two fullbacks + DM.

I really agree that you should start with a more simple formation with just few instructions and a "basic" mentality (I prefer Positive than Balanced, but ok, both can work), and then adjust as necessary - no specific style, no complications, just play and see.

If you don´t know exactly which formation to use, maybe you can give a look at the assistant manager report and see what he recommends as the best position/role of your three best players. This can help a lot.

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Tsuru

[enigmatic]

tbf there's nothing wrong with a back three and the original midfield could work in some setups (sure, they all chase the ball but at least there's three of them and an extra defender behind)

 

But you're playing pretty much the most extreme hoofball possible with a side that's favoured to win (so the opposition will try to keep the ball a lot when you kick it to them and not send too many players forward) and only two genuine attacking players. Of course most of the passes are going the the opposition. Your tactics are "kick ball in general direction of target man, if he wins the header advanced forward will chase his flick, everybody else will stay back". Basically the only way you keep the ball is if the opposition makes a mistake or your own team ignores their instructions.

[TaPele]

Now, what I meant with the title is that the game doesn't work as things work in real life. It's funny because it gets worse and worse. I made little tweaks to the tactic bit by bit and ended up with one tactic that looked promisng.

In the first ten minutes I scored two goals and the first half finished 2-0. Of course in the dressing room I told my players to not to relax. Of course then, they relaxed and the game finished 2-3. This is what I was talking about, it's getting to a point where the only think I can think of is to fire them all and if possible, imprision them... 

I don't know what happens but with this new tactic my first halfs are blooming good but then the second half the players seem to think that the game's over and cocede plenty of goals after a defensively bloody good first half.

Edited June 19, 2021 by TaPele

[NotSoSpecialOne]

What you're describing doesn't sound like a tactical issue necessarily.

[afced7]

4 hours ago, TaPele said:

Now, what I meant with the title is that the game doesn't work as things work in real life. It's funny because it gets worse and worse. I made little tweaks to the tactic bit by bit and ended up with one tactic that looked promisng.

In the first ten minutes I scored two goals and the first half finished 2-0. Of course in the dressing room I told my players to not to relax. Of course then, they relaxed and the game finished 2-3. This is what I was talking about, it's getting to a point where the only think I can think of is to fire them all and if possible, imprision them... 

I don't know what happens but with this new tactic my first halfs are blooming good but then the second half the players seem to think that the game's over and cocede plenty of goals after a defensively bloody good first half.

And what was the players' reaction to that? I don't mean what happened on the pitch, I mean were they motivated/annoyed/focused etc?

[pheelf]

4 hours ago, TaPele said:

Now, what I meant with the title is that the game doesn't work as things work in real life. It's funny because it gets worse and worse. I made little tweaks to the tactic bit by bit and ended up with one tactic that looked promising.

In the first ten minutes I scored two goals and the first half finished 2-0. Of course in the dressing room I told my players to not to relax. Of course then, they relaxed and the game finished 2-3. This is what I was talking about, it's getting to a point where the only think I can think of is to fire them all and if possible, imprision them... 

I don't know what happens but with this new tactic my first halfs are blooming good but then the second half the players seem to think that the game's over and cocede plenty of goals after a defensively bloody good first half.

What does your current tactic look like?

It's perfectly feasible that a team recovers from 2-0 down to win a game 3-2, that happens in real football so there is nothing unrealistic about that.

You also didn't provide any context behind the result. Were you lucky to be 2-0 up? Did the opposition have a lot of chances in the 1st half but just didn't take any?

I think for the moment you might be better off ignoring the results and instead focusing on the performances of the team. 

Once the team is consistently playing the way you want then you can start judging the results. You need to give a bit of time for a tactic to bed in if you're playing the full version of FM as tactical familiarity becomes a consideration.

Constantly making major changes to your tactics doesn't help the team to gel.

When you saw the game starting to turn against your team, what did you spot that the opposition had changed and how did you react to it?

IF it's becoming a trend that your team plays well in the 1st half then collapses in the 2nd then you need to assess what you're doing in terms of game management.

The longer a game goes on the more factors like complacency and fatigue start to impact the game.

You attempt to mitigate those by using the correct team talks/shouts to keep your team motivated and making effective substitutions.

Best Regards

[Experienced Defender]

14 hours ago, TaPele said:

Now, what I meant with the title is that the game doesn't work as things work in real life. It's funny because it gets worse and worse. I made little tweaks to the tactic bit by bit and ended up with one tactic that looked promisng.

In the first ten minutes I scored two goals and the first half finished 2-0. Of course in the dressing room I told my players to not to relax. Of course then, they relaxed and the game finished 2-3. This is what I was talking about, it's getting to a point where the only think I can think of is to fire them all and if possible, imprision them... 

I don't know what happens but with this new tactic my first halfs are blooming good but then the second half the players seem to think that the game's over and cocede plenty of goals after a defensively bloody good first half.

Okay, so you are actually a "great tactician", but the "stupid unrealistic game" is working against you. If so, you have 3 possible options:

1. Forget about FM and instead play some "more realistic" game;

2. Forget about FM, become a real-life football manager and show the whole world how good you are;

3. Forget about FM, invent your own video game and corner the market 

[Prolix]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, so you are actually a "great tactician", but the "stupid unrealistic game" is working against you.

This is not a fair depiction of their post.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Experienced Defender
needless remark

[Experienced Defender]

24 minutes ago, Prolix said:

This is not a fair depiction of their post

This is a depiction of the OP's overall posting style since he joined the community (not just that particular post). 

The rest of your post has been removed as a needless remark. Keep to the topic please and do not try to teach me or anyone how they should post their comments. That's not your job, sorry 

 

[TaPele]

11 hours ago, pheelf said:

It's perfectly feasible that a team recovers from 2-0 down to win a game 3-2, that happens in real football so there is nothing unrealistic about that.

You also didn't provide any context behind the result. Were you lucky to be 2-0 up? Did the opposition have a lot of chances in the 1st half but just didn't take any?

I think for the moment you might be better off ignoring the results and instead focusing on the performances of the team. 

Constantly making major changes to your tactics doesn't help the team to gel.

I've selected two points to develop.

1. I'm not saying the "unrealistic" thing is to overcome the result, but that my players just forgot to play the second half. Well, even that's realistic too but what I meant is that I might be done. I made tactical changes, the team responded and they are slowly beginning to play how I want. Having got to know them, I know how they are and make sure to tell them not to relax, they got motivated... and then they simply vanish from the pitch in the second half.

Today, for instance, we hit the woodkwork thrice. What else can I do? That's my point.

2. I know what you mean, but there's no such thing as "luck". I had more xG but with considerable less opportunities. In football "luck" means capacity or talent. My players were capable enough for scoring twice while theirs weren't, on the same page, my defenders were capable of preventing them from scoring, theirs weren't and so on.

I know are kinda satisfied with my tactics so I agree with your last part, though I fear the borad might not...

Thanks for respectfully answering

Edited June 19, 2021 by TaPele

[TaPele]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, so you are actually a "great tactician", but the "stupid unrealistic game" is working against you.

I never said that. Actually, that's what I came here, because after a while I considered I wasn't a great tactician, or to be precise because I wanted to learn how the game works. I was upset with the game not doing what I wanted and not understanding why, so yes, I might have had wrath flowing throgh my veins while writing but against the game never against users.

You all gave me several useful tips and I learnt some stuff about the game that otherwise wouldn't have learnt. Changed my tactics, considered the roles and duties, everything that I had at the tip of my fingers.

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

1. Forget about FM and instead play some "more realistic" game;

2. Forget about FM, become a real-life football manager and show the whole world how good you are;

3. Forget about FM, invent your own video game and corner the market 

1. Now I want to be promoted. I don't care that much about realism but about the mysteries of the game. If I simply managed to understand how it works, that would be it.

2. Too much work. But way easier to comprehend real life players that FM's. We don't always have an option to say "maybe you should consider not making fouls in the box" or "see that rectangle? shoot inside there please"

3. I wish I could, but it's too hard...

Edited June 19, 2021 by Experienced Defender
needless remark

[GIMN]

@TaPele - I'll be honest, I'm not surprised you're struggling - the tactic just doesn't make any sense to me.  Outside of hoping for a flick on behind the defence for the onrushing striker, there doesn't seem to be much of an attacking plan, and defensively there seems to be a lot of space to exploit, especially in front of the centre-backs and behind the wingbacks.  If you've not given up completely, I'd like to get back to one of your first statements and ask a whole load of questions:

On 16/06/2021 at 03:36, TaPele said:

I'm simply looking forward to playing a counter-attacking system, soaking up pressure and responding with a quick and lethal transition

Let's start defensively.:

• How do you plan to get the ball back? 
  • Harrying the opposition into mistakes?
  • Encouraging the opposition to cross into an aerially solid defence?
  • Restricting space so through balls can't get through?
• What is the defensive shape?
  • If you want two solid banks behind the ball, is it a back 5 or a back 3?
  • How does that shape deal with the overloaded flanks (who is responsible for tracking the full-back)?
  • What role do your strikers play in defence?
• Do your players fit in with your answers to above?

For attack:

• What should your players do when they win the ball back?
  • Where are your outlets?
  • Who can they pass to when they've got the ball?
  • How are you exploiting the areas that are exposed on the counter?
• When the counter isn't on, how do you create chances?
  • How do you recycle the attack?
  • Who is attacking the box?
• Do your players fit in with your answers to the above?

These questions won't be enough to create a perfect tactic, but they might help create a better tactic.  I find this tactical board quite useful for visualising what I want to achieve; looking at what each player is responsible for in each phase.  Then I find the role that matches it best.  Sometimes you're lucky and there is a role that is already perfect.  Sometimes not, and you have to add in a couple of PIs to get closer to what you want to achieve.

(I'll reply again in about 20 minutes.  Gonna start a quick save with Barnet, and try and put something together for a holiday tactic test)

[TaPele]

1 hour ago, Geoff Newman said:

@TaPele - I'll be honest, I'm not surprised you're struggling - the tactic just doesn't make any sense to me.  Outside of hoping for a flick on behind the defence for the onrushing striker, there doesn't seem to be much of an attacking plan, and defensively there seems to be a lot of space to exploit, especially in front of the centre-backs and behind the wingbacks.  If you've not given up completely, I'd like to get back to one of your first statements and ask a whole load of questions:

Let's start defensively.:

• How do you plan to get the ball back? 
  • Harrying the opposition into mistakes?
  • Encouraging the opposition to cross into an aerially solid defence?
  • Restricting space so through balls can't get through?
• What is the defensive shape?
  • If you want two solid banks behind the ball, is it a back 5 or a back 3?
  • How does that shape deal with the overloaded flanks (who is responsible for tracking the full-back)?
  • What role do your strikers play in defence?
• Do your players fit in with your answers to above?

For attack:

• What should your players do when they win the ball back?
  • Where are your outlets?
  • Who can they pass to when they've got the ball?
  • How are you exploiting the areas that are exposed on the counter?
• When the counter isn't on, how do you create chances?
  • How do you recycle the attack?
  • Who is attacking the box?
• Do your players fit in with your answers to the above?

These questions won't be enough to create a perfect tactic, but they might help create a better tactic.  I find this tactical board quite useful for visualising what I want to achieve; looking at what each player is responsible for in each phase.  Then I find the role that matches it best.  Sometimes you're lucky and there is a role that is already perfect.  Sometimes not, and you have to add in a couple of PIs to get closer to what you want to achieve.

(I'll reply again in about 20 minutes.  Gonna start a quick save with Barnet, and try and put something together for a holiday tactic test)

Thanks Geoff. My tactic changed considerably since that. I don't know how to call it but playing like this is getting quite near what I looked for: Solid defense, lethal, aggressive and quick counter. 

How do I know if my players fit or not? I used to think about attributes but they all have better attributes than the average player in the league but they keep wasting clear chances.

I'm in 2024 so that Barnet you will find isn't the same I'm playing with. Huge thanks!

Edited June 19, 2021 by TaPele