Jump to content

Overload CWB Help


Recommended Posts

After watching the Italy vs Turkey game and seeing how much space Italy's left back and how he was a costant threat I wanted to try and replicate a similar formation and style on FM.

I have made the below tactic and it does seems to work (I think?) as my left back has the highest rating on my team so far this season however whenever I go against similar/better oppoenents than me I just get steamrolled, I understand that I'm not supposed to win everygame etc but with the players I have it just feel like I should be much more competitive in these matches.

I feel like my teams skill has carried me rather than the actual tactic.

Personally I think i'm overthinking how you would create this playstyle on FM and It's probably a lot simpler than what i have tried to make, if anyone has any suggestions on tweaks/how they would actually create this system then please do let me know

 

Roma Formation.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Kkizza said:

I feel like my teams skill has carried me rather than the actual tactic

Looking at the tactic, I have to agree (unfortunately). Simply because it really looks unbalanced, disjointed and incoherent. 

 

2 hours ago, Kkizza said:

Personally I think i'm overthinking how you would create this playstyle on FM and It's probably a lot simpler than what i have tried to make

Once again you are right. 

 

2 hours ago, Kkizza said:

if anyone has any suggestions on tweaks/how they would actually create this system then please do let me know

I don't know which tactical style you want to recreate (and btw I am not much into tactical replications of real-life teams anyway), so I can only tell you what in my view is wrong in your tactic and how that can be improved by certain tweaks. If that's what you want, please let me know. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some extra reading on Italy's tactics

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/italy-turkey-euro-2020-tactics-mancini-b1864558.html

https://pythagorasinboots.com/italy-euro-2020-tactical-analysis/

 

I think it is tough to emulate the way they play as you can only focus one side of the field in FM. They use the whole field instead of one side. When one fb goes forward, the other stays back. Kind of reminds me of how fbs used to play back in the days. Tough to emulate that now in this game (maybe WB (auto) with Hold Position)?

 

Edited by Jean0987654321
Link to post
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Looking at the tactic, I have to agree (unfortunately). Simply because it really looks unbalanced, disjointed and incoherent. 

 

Once again you are right. 

 

I don't know which tactical style you want to recreate (and btw I am not much into tactical replications of real-life teams anyway), so I can only tell you what in my view is wrong in your tactic and how that can be improved by certain tweaks. If that's what you want, please let me know. 

Quote
Quote

Looking at the tactic, I have to agree (unfortunately). Simply because it really looks unbalanced, disjointed and incoherent. 

Unfortunately I knew this deep down and it was really hammered home when I play someone good and didn't even compete!

Quote

I don't know which tactical style you want to recreate (and btw I am not much into tactical replications of real-life teams anyway), so I can only tell you what in my view is wrong in your tactic and how that can be improved by certain tweaks. If that's what you want, please let me know. 

I wanted to try and make my LB the main threat of my team and have him in constant acres of space on that side and then have my team switch the ball to him where he could either have a run at goal or pick out a cross. (almost like a left winger perhaps?). Yes please I would love to see what tweaks you would make 

Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Some extra reading on Italy's tactics

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/italy-turkey-euro-2020-tactics-mancini-b1864558.html

https://pythagorasinboots.com/italy-euro-2020-tactical-analysis/

 

I think it is tough to emulate the way they play as you can only focus one side of the field in FM. They use the whole field instead of one side. When one fb goes forward, the other stays back. Kind of reminds me of how fbs used to play back in the days. Tough to emulate that now in this game (maybe WB (auto) with Hold Position)?

 

Brilliant thank you I will definitely give them a read!

I tried to emulate that with the IWB-D on the right side which in my mind I was hoping to create almost a back three but I'm not 100% how that role actually operates and I think it tends to roam into the midfield area? I could definitely try a WB (auto) with Hold Position

Link to post
Share on other sites

Have not seen the game as of yet so I'm just working off the second link provided by @Jean0987654321 for the following shape (I've flipped it so the left side is the threat as you want)

                                        CF(A)

IF(Su)                                                                   IW(A)

                      Mez(Su)                  CM(Su)

                                    DLP(De)


CWB(A)          CD(De)            CD(De)            IWB(De)

                                       SK(De)

IF(Su): Sit Narrower

CM(Su): Move Into Channels or Roam From Position

Left CB: Stay wider

No idea on TIs per not having seen the match.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Italy is, tactically, the most impressive teams in the Euros so far. So I really enjoyed their game. Here's my interpretation of them:

- Florenzi: he wasn't a proper inverted FB as he rarely spent time in MF zone. With Barella tasked to provide roam towards the right, Florenzi was needed to stay a bit deeper and be a passing option during the early build-up play. But once Italy progressed the ball forward and were deep in Turkey's half, Florenzi provided late runs to further stretch the play. So I think WB/s with sit narrower TI should suffice. If he is bombing forward too early with that role, FB/s with the same TI is the alternative.

- Bonucci: despite him being clearly the more cultured CB compared to Chiellini, it was Bonucci actually playing the more reserved role here. This was because Florenzi was the actual link-play in the deep zones over that channel, so Bonucci was a simple CB/d in my view. 

- Chiellini: the one who was tasked to step out of the back and either carry or pass the ball into the midfield zone down the left channel. This was because of the different roles of the FBs: with the LB being more attacking and getting high up early on, Chiellini was needed to be the link man (alongside Locatelli). BPD/d role with 'bring ball out of the back' PPM is needed.

- Spinazzola: proper WB/a and as he was always up and down the flank and enjoyed the freedom to use it all by himself (Insigne was roaming infield).

- Jorginho: with Turkey applying little pressure he didn't drop in between the CBs at all, predominantly staying just ahead and was closer to the CMs. So A DLP/d role with 'more risky passes' and possible 'more direct passes' should be enough. 

- Locatelli: the 'in-between' passer, as I like to call the middle CM in a 1-2 triangle. Again with Turkey sitting deep and leaving plenty of space in midfield, I'd say he was more of a AP/s than a DLP/s. He didn't venture too forward (that was Barella's task) nor dropped deep (there was no need with Chiellini and Jorginho having easy time to progress the ball forward), so AP/s role should do it. 

- Barella: proper Mezz/s role. He was the in-between player between Florenzi and Berardi, doing the link up down the right channel and freezing Berardi to roam infield freely. 

- Berardi: I think it's between IW/a or IF/a. The former will replicate his wider positioning and that he often stayed wider to combine with Barella. The latter will replicate his diagonal runs and his attacking onus better. Perhaps some merging of the two (using one of the roles and applying Tis) is the best bet here.

- Insigne: proper IF/s but we need exact replication of his skills set and PPMs for this role to act exactly like him. He was quasi-playmaker, winger and attacker all into one. 

- Immobile: very specific role too. He was more often than not staying high up to pin the defence back and leave more space for the CMs and wingers to operate between the lines; roamed the channels to further move the defence around and open up gaps. But he also sometimes dropped deep to lure defenders with him and open up space for the wingers to dart infield. I think A-duty role is needed but not really attacking one. So it's either DLF/a or PF/a but both need 'moves into channels' and probably 'roam from position' to further replicate his movement. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Kkizza said:

I wanted to try and make my LB the main threat of my team and have him in constant acres of space on that side and then have my team switch the ball to him where he could either have a run at goal or pick out a cross. (almost like a left winger perhaps?). Yes please I would love to see what tweaks you would make

So you basically want to overload the opposite (right) side in order to free up space for the CWB on the left. One possible way of doing that can be this:

AF    CFsu

                                       APsu

BWMsu  CMde  DLPsu

CWBat   CDde  CDde   WBsu

GK/SKde

As you can see, the entire right side is on support duties, two of which are playmaker roles so as to act like ball-magnets and naturally encourage more passes to their side.

In terms of instructions, I would start with only the following:

Positive - play out of defence & focus play down the right flank - counter-press - higher D-line, standard LOE (and either normal/default or more urgent pressing)

And you can also use PIs to tell wide players on the right flank to cross to the far post.

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

Have not seen the game as of yet so I'm just working off the second link provided by @Jean0987654321 for the following shape (I've flipped it so the left side is the threat as you want)

                                        CF(A)

IF(Su)                                                                   IW(A)

                      Mez(Su)                  CM(Su)

                                    DLP(De)


CWB(A)          CD(De)            CD(De)            IWB(De)

                                       SK(De)

IF(Su): Sit Narrower

CM(Su): Move Into Channels or Roam From Position

Left CB: Stay wider

No idea on TIs per not having seen the match.

Thank you for this I will test this out and see how I like it, in regards to the left CB staying wider is this so he covers more of the empty space from the LB or is it to make the back line shift over a bit more?

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The #9.5 said:

Italy is, tactically, the most impressive teams in the Euros so far. So I really enjoyed their game. Here's my interpretation of them:

- Florenzi: he wasn't a proper inverted FB as he rarely spent time in MF zone. With Barella tasked to provide roam towards the right, Florenzi was needed to stay a bit deeper and be a passing option during the early build-up play. But once Italy progressed the ball forward and were deep in Turkey's half, Florenzi provided late runs to further stretch the play. So I think WB/s with sit narrower TI should suffice. If he is bombing forward too early with that role, FB/s with the same TI is the alternative.

- Bonucci: despite him being clearly the more cultured CB compared to Chiellini, it was Bonucci actually playing the more reserved role here. This was because Florenzi was the actual link-play in the deep zones over that channel, so Bonucci was a simple CB/d in my view. 

- Chiellini: the one who was tasked to step out of the back and either carry or pass the ball into the midfield zone down the left channel. This was because of the different roles of the FBs: with the LB being more attacking and getting high up early on, Chiellini was needed to be the link man (alongside Locatelli). BPD/d role with 'bring ball out of the back' PPM is needed.

- Spinazzola: proper WB/a and as he was always up and down the flank and enjoyed the freedom to use it all by himself (Insigne was roaming infield).

- Jorginho: with Turkey applying little pressure he didn't drop in between the CBs at all, predominantly staying just ahead and was closer to the CMs. So A DLP/d role with 'more risky passes' and possible 'more direct passes' should be enough. 

- Locatelli: the 'in-between' passer, as I like to call the middle CM in a 1-2 triangle. Again with Turkey sitting deep and leaving plenty of space in midfield, I'd say he was more of a AP/s than a DLP/s. He didn't venture too forward (that was Barella's task) nor dropped deep (there was no need with Chiellini and Jorginho having easy time to progress the ball forward), so AP/s role should do it. 

- Barella: proper Mezz/s role. He was the in-between player between Florenzi and Berardi, doing the link up down the right channel and freezing Berardi to roam infield freely. 

- Berardi: I think it's between IW/a or IF/a. The former will replicate his wider positioning and that he often stayed wider to combine with Barella. The latter will replicate his diagonal runs and his attacking onus better. Perhaps some merging of the two (using one of the roles and applying Tis) is the best bet here.

- Insigne: proper IF/s but we need exact replication of his skills set and PPMs for this role to act exactly like him. He was quasi-playmaker, winger and attacker all into one. 

- Immobile: very specific role too. He was more often than not staying high up to pin the defence back and leave more space for the CMs and wingers to operate between the lines; roamed the channels to further move the defence around and open up gaps. But he also sometimes dropped deep to lure defenders with him and open up space for the wingers to dart infield. I think A-duty role is needed but not really attacking one. So it's either DLF/a or PF/a but both need 'moves into channels' and probably 'roam from position' to further replicate his movement. 

Quote

Italy is, tactically, the most impressive teams in the Euros so far. So I really enjoyed their game.

I certainly agree, they looked perfectly drilled and knew exactly what their role was in that team.

Thank you for the detailed writeup it really helps picture the tactic and the understanding of each role, I will try replicate this and see how it goes, my biggest issue will be trying to find a player similar to Insigne as he's quite a unique player and annoyingly I didn't invest in a left winger before the season started as I wasn't planning on using one (woops!)

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

So you basically want to overload the opposite (right) side in order to free up space for the CWB on the left. One possible way of doing that can be this:

AF    CFsu

                                       APsu

BWMsu  CMde  DLPsu

CWBat   CDde  CDde   WBsu

GK/SKde

As you can see, the entire right side is on support duties, two of which are playmaker roles so as to act like ball-magnets and naturally encourage more passes to their side.

In terms of instructions, I would start with only the following:

Positive - play out of defence & focus play down the right flank - counter-press - higher D-line, standard LOE (and either normal/default or more urgent pressing)

And you can also use PIs to tell wide players on the right flank to cross to the far post.

Brilliant thank you I will definitely give this a go as the players I have at my disposal fit these roles perfectly, I'm relieved I can still achieve this playstyle without a LW as I currently lack one at my club!

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Kkizza said:

Thank you for this I will test this out and see how I like it, in regards to the left CB staying wider is this so he covers more of the empty space from the LB or is it to make the back line shift over a bit more?

More to shift over a bit in possession but I had a play around and it doesn't drift as wide as I was envisioning (DM needs to be a HB or a CB in the central position for what I had in mind).

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 15/06/2021 at 09:22, The #9.5 said:

Italy is, tactically, the most impressive teams in the Euros so far. So I really enjoyed their game. Here's my interpretation of them:

- Florenzi: he wasn't a proper inverted FB as he rarely spent time in MF zone. With Barella tasked to provide roam towards the right, Florenzi was needed to stay a bit deeper and be a passing option during the early build-up play. But once Italy progressed the ball forward and were deep in Turkey's half, Florenzi provided late runs to further stretch the play. So I think WB/s with sit narrower TI should suffice. If he is bombing forward too early with that role, FB/s with the same TI is the alternative.

- Bonucci: despite him being clearly the more cultured CB compared to Chiellini, it was Bonucci actually playing the more reserved role here. This was because Florenzi was the actual link-play in the deep zones over that channel, so Bonucci was a simple CB/d in my view. 

- Chiellini: the one who was tasked to step out of the back and either carry or pass the ball into the midfield zone down the left channel. This was because of the different roles of the FBs: with the LB being more attacking and getting high up early on, Chiellini was needed to be the link man (alongside Locatelli). BPD/d role with 'bring ball out of the back' PPM is needed.

- Spinazzola: proper WB/a and as he was always up and down the flank and enjoyed the freedom to use it all by himself (Insigne was roaming infield).

- Jorginho: with Turkey applying little pressure he didn't drop in between the CBs at all, predominantly staying just ahead and was closer to the CMs. So A DLP/d role with 'more risky passes' and possible 'more direct passes' should be enough. 

- Locatelli: the 'in-between' passer, as I like to call the middle CM in a 1-2 triangle. Again with Turkey sitting deep and leaving plenty of space in midfield, I'd say he was more of a AP/s than a DLP/s. He didn't venture too forward (that was Barella's task) nor dropped deep (there was no need with Chiellini and Jorginho having easy time to progress the ball forward), so AP/s role should do it. 

- Barella: proper Mezz/s role. He was the in-between player between Florenzi and Berardi, doing the link up down the right channel and freezing Berardi to roam infield freely. 

- Berardi: I think it's between IW/a or IF/a. The former will replicate his wider positioning and that he often stayed wider to combine with Barella. The latter will replicate his diagonal runs and his attacking onus better. Perhaps some merging of the two (using one of the roles and applying Tis) is the best bet here.

- Insigne: proper IF/s but we need exact replication of his skills set and PPMs for this role to act exactly like him. He was quasi-playmaker, winger and attacker all into one. 

- Immobile: very specific role too. He was more often than not staying high up to pin the defence back and leave more space for the CMs and wingers to operate between the lines; roamed the channels to further move the defence around and open up gaps. But he also sometimes dropped deep to lure defenders with him and open up space for the wingers to dart infield. I think A-duty role is needed but not really attacking one. So it's either DLF/a or PF/a but both need 'moves into channels' and probably 'roam from position' to further replicate his movement. 

First things first, absolutely fantastic write up 👏

Just to pick up on a few things you've mentioned

• you spoke about merging IW and IF to create the Berardi role, what instructions would these be?

• you mentioned PPMs for the Insigne role, what PPMs would you find suitable?

If its also not too much of an issue what Ti's would you use?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, FMSacchi said:

First things first, absolutely fantastic write up 👏

Just to pick up on a few things you've mentioned

• you spoke about merging IW and IF to create the Berardi role, what instructions would these be?

• you mentioned PPMs for the Insigne role, what PPMs would you find suitable?

If its also not too much of an issue what Ti's would you use?

 

Thanks!

On Positive mentality both IW/a and IF/a have 'very attacking' mentality but I still think with DLF/a up front, IW/a will be better. Adding Take More Risk and Roam from Position should replicate Berardi well. 

Insigne in a IF/s role with PPMs like cutting inside from the left, getting into opponent area, one-twos, killer balls, should be enough to replicate him. I'd also add roam from position.

About Tis. Using Positive mentality, I think all out of possession settings are fine enough. Only work ball into box, play out of the back (to further emphasis the need for the ball to go through midfield zone and through the playmakers) and low crosses are needed. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, The #9.5 said:

Thanks!

On Positive mentality both IW/a and IF/a have 'very attacking' mentality but I still think with DLF/a up front, IW/a will be better. Adding Take More Risk and Roam from Position should replicate Berardi well. 

Insigne in a IF/s role with PPMs like cutting inside from the left, getting into opponent area, one-twos, killer balls, should be enough to replicate him. I'd also add roam from position.

About Tis. Using Positive mentality, I think all out of possession settings are fine enough. Only work ball into box, play out of the back (to further emphasis the need for the ball to go through midfield zone and through the playmakers) and low crosses are needed. 

Perfect, thanks alot for that! Your attention to detail is really something.

Have you ever considered writing a few tactical peices yourself? Your thought process is detailed yet very easy to understand and your writing style is also very good. 

I've saw the peices you done on the Mourinho styles at different clubs and they were incredible.

Thanks Again 👏👏👏👏

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, FMSacchi said:

Perfect, thanks alot for that! Your attention to detail is really something.

Have you ever considered writing a few tactical peices yourself? Your thought process is detailed yet very easy to understand and your writing style is also very good. 

I've saw the peices you done on the Mourinho styles at different clubs and they were incredible.

Thanks Again 👏👏👏👏

Back in the days I've been writing a lot of pieces in various forums. But nowadays my time is limited and won't allow me such a luxury. I'm also not playing FM as often I used to, so there's that too. But thanks for the warm words, appreciated! 

Link to post
Share on other sites

To replicate Italy my starting point would be:

2086041537_Italy_Overview.png.0ddd9cccc5bac63b88f6985bf55bc9ff.png

 

Back three shape made by the FB(d) - Sit narrower, CD(co), and CD(st) - stay wider.

I don't think you need to go with CWB, either a WB or FB(a) would do the job fine I suspect.

DLP in the midfield strata, I'd start with the other CM's on support and tweak these if necessary (or also, bare in mind PPM's).

AP(a) on the left with roam from position to free up the flank for the left back. W(a) on the other side because they stayed high and wide, playing a left footer there offers the cut inside variety naturally. DLF(a) up front I'd start with to act as a linkman as well as be a scoring threat. Wouldn't usually put all three on attack duty but best fits what Italy are doing, plus the DLF and AP are going to be looking for ball to feet and so I don't think it would be disjointed.

 

EDIT: Just done a very very quick test run for one game, with minimal instructions on balanced mentality, and not too bad at all. Plenty of fluid possession, stable back three shape in build up, the left back camped up in the final third, the AP popping up everywhere in the left half of the pitch, and the RW high and wide but also getting into the area. If I was to keep going I'd want to further shape the midfield roles, but initial conclusion would be not too hard to do a decent replication of how Italy are playing.

Edited by mp_87
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...