Jump to content

(Discussion) Players value need to adjust faster after they play well


Recommended Posts

Hi guys

in real life, when a player plays well, let's say half-season, hype goes up together with his value.

We have a lot of examples, but in FM the problem is that value is "capped" by PA (hidden) 

So if a young player collects 15 gol in one season, you will see a little value increase, very far from the value it would have in reality.

we have tons of example like this:

MARCOS LLORENTE  -  APRIL 2020: 16M - MAY 2021: 80M 
https://www.transfermarkt.com/marcos-llorente/marktwertverlauf/spieler/282411

PHIL PHODEN - APRIL 2020: 27M - MAY 2021: 80M 
https://www.transfermarkt.com/phil-foden/marktwertverlauf/spieler/406635

GIACOMO RASPADORI - APRIL 2020: 625k - MAY 2021: 15M 
https://www.transfermarkt.com/giacomo-raspadori/marktwertverlauf/spieler/405885

and they not scored tons of goals, just played well, raspadori just play few games !

 

this never happen into FM, the value goes up only if PA is high, and after a lot of time, and a lot of good games.

 

Why this thing  never been taken in  consideration?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Abdullah Patel changed the title to (Discussion) Players value need to adjust faster after they play well
  • 4 weeks later...

There are several database values affecting player value. And you can also completely disregard it while playing since it is only a very vague guideline. The value of the player is only determined in negotiation with another club. If the in-game guideline is too precise and up to date there will be no point in bidding for other players right? Then it is more like a price tag.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Also, relating to Player Value/Transfers, I think it would be beneficial if they more accurately represented reality. 

For instance, in my AC Milan save, just because Diogo Dalot makes 30 appearances, it shouldn't mean that Manchester United won't budge for any permanent transfers for less than $50 million, especially when he has a market value of only $20 million despite all these appearances.

I think quality appearances should make a difference (difference between starting and coming on in 80th minute). 

 

Thanks!

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's going to be hard to explain... I know these things in Italian, I don't know the exact English terms...

I'd say a value of a player should represent his remaining cost in the balance sheet (amortisation).

Let's say I spend 100 for a player. He's on a five-year contract.

His "value" will be 100 for the first year, 80 for the second year, 60 for the third year... If I sell him for 50 in his third year, I'll lose 10 (capital loss), if I sell him for 70 I'll gain 10 (capital gain).

That would be a slightly more realistic representation of how things work and would also give you a more accurate idea of your performance on the transfer market. Hopefully, it would also make the AI act more realistically when they set an asking price for a player: not only they will judge his perceived PA/CA, his importance for the club, performances, future, etc. but also the gain/loss they'll make if they sell him.

For youth team players and players signed on a free transfer things are a bit more complicated, let's just say their "value" is 0, because you always get a capital gain when you sell them.

Of course, value should not mean "ah, I can get this wonderkid for free because his value is 0", but it can help you find good deals depending on the remaining time on players' contracts.

I do believe "value" in FM somehow works like this, I just don't get the "how" in "somehow".

Link to post
Share on other sites

Il 26/7/2021 in 22:19 , Vänsterback ha scritto:

There are several database values affecting player value. And you can also completely disregard it while playing since it is only a very vague guideline. The value of the player is only determined in negotiation with another club. If the in-game guideline is too precise and up to date there will be no point in bidding for other players right? Then it is more like a price tag.

 

yeah but in-game players value is also like a "spoiler" because too often a player have high value without any reasons, compared to the rest. Why? because these players have HIGH PA

so this is a problem, it ruins my games because I can easily spot a talented player.

 

in real yes, players value is not a tax, but is a lot influenced by hype, by the positive/negative moment

 

BUT THIS IS A GOOD THING, becasue value most time can fool us.

example is when a team spend a lot of money for an high valued player that after some bad games, drop drastically is value, and that considered a disappointment.

 

in game these things don't happen, SURPISE EFFECT not exists.

 

In the actuate state, I can predict a lot of things in the game, sorry but that is not fun for me.

 

 

a fluctuable value of players, can add some of pepper to the game

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

This gets at something which is very limiting in FM, which is that player development is very static. Players are either good or they're not; if they're good, play them and they will get there and if they're not, they're obviously a waste of time.  Attribute masking is essentially pointless for a rich club with good scouts.

Internally, perhaps could take a look at how much PA/CA changes in the database over the seasons. In real life, players come out of nowhere and sometimes they also fall off (or make a later career comeback). This is something that doesn't feel well-modeled by FM.

Additionally I think what is presented to the user maybe shouldn't be PA/CA, but their own coaching staff's view of the player's abilities, ratings, and potential. This can be disconnected with actual CA and affects how well players can play under a certain staff. Significant changes to staff can unlock (or confine) a player's career, and vary what the user sees as player ratings wildly. We've all seen the clearly good player a coach doesn't rate for whatever reason and he requires a change of scenery to succeed.

Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, lamp said:

This gets at something which is very limiting in FM, which is that player development is very static. Players are either good or they're not; if they're good, play them and they will get there and if they're not, they're obviously a waste of time.  Attribute masking is essentially pointless for a rich club with good scouts.

Internally, perhaps could take a look at how much PA/CA changes in the database over the seasons. In real life, players come out of nowhere and sometimes they also fall off (or make a later career comeback). This is something that doesn't feel well-modeled by FM.

Additionally I think what is presented to the user maybe shouldn't be PA/CA, but their own coaching staff's view of the player's abilities, ratings, and potential. This can be disconnected with actual CA and affects how well players can play under a certain staff. Significant changes to staff can unlock (or confine) a player's career, and vary what the user sees as player ratings wildly. We've all seen the clearly good player a coach doesn't rate for whatever reason and he requires a change of scenery to succeed.

Sorry I'm confused, is this about player value, player performance, player ability or PCA/PPA (percieved CA/PA, visible as star rating in-game)?

The first part I disagree with. Players can develop, but if you are a top club there will naturally be very few players that can be good enough for you. And if the best team or player improve it will still be the best team or player, so it will not be seen as an improvement compared to others necessarily.

Regarding your last part, what is presented to the user is PCA and PPA (stars), both based on CA and/or reputation if I have understood it correctly. Among other parameters of course (but not PA). That's seen when you bring in a newgen that your staff believe is rubbish (currently and potentially), but three seasons later when the player have developed and his reputation has been adjusted accordingly, they will have changed their minds. The player's PA have been the same since it was spawned, but the staff's perception of it has changed based on other parameters. You can only see the actual CA/PA if you actively use such an in-game tool.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's just that player evaluation isn't in any sense unpredictable or a challenge. Either you're a decent club and basically see everything or you're a semi-pro club that doesn't have a scouting budget. Even with the youth intake players, the world-beaters come in with known star potential and fulfill it and everyone else peters out. That guy with 2.5 stars potential has zero chance to blossom, at least so far as I've noticed. But following clubs, their youth ranks are full of players who fans think can turn into something, and sometimes players come from nowhere.

I get that there's a distinction between ability and perceived ability, it just doesn't seem very meaningful. At least, this is only from my observation. I have had zero diamond-in-the-roughs, every single youth prospect who became a starter or a star, I knew it was going to happen the minute they showed up in youth intake. When it comes to buying players, again, there's not really any mystery: you basically know what you are getting with a veteran, barring injury.

There isn't a case of a player going on a hot streak and convincing a user to splurge and then they land on the team and coaches realize they got something far different from what they were expecting. From a gameplay standpoint, I think more uncertainty for the user would be good and spice things up.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Le 13/08/2021 à 11:06, gianmixx a dit :

 

yeah but in-game players value is also like a "spoiler" because too often a player have high value without any reasons, compared to the rest. Why? because these players have HIGH PA

so this is a problem, it ruins my games because I can easily spot a talented player.

In real yes, players value is not a tax, but is a lot influenced by hype, by the positive/negative moment

BUT THIS IS A GOOD THING, becasue value most time can fool us.

example is when a team spend a lot of money for an high valued player that after some bad games, drop drastically is value, and that considered a disappointment.

in game these things don't happen, SURPISE EFFECT not exists.

In the actuate state, I can predict a lot of things in the game, sorry but that is not fun for me.

a fluctuable value of players, can add some of pepper to the game

Completely agree !

Values should more vary depending on the hype. I guess it's because players reputations can't move quickly enough. Even a very good performance in a (important) match should have a quick impact !

Maybe the "problem" is also due to how scouting operates. I don't "feel" that scouting reports are enough based on "what they see". They can tell us that a player as a good/bad attribute np matter if he didn't performed accordingly in the match analysed.

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 19/08/2021 at 19:11, dieguitoch said:

Completely agree !

Values should more vary depending on the hype. I guess it's because players reputations can't move quickly enough. Even a very good performance in a (important) match should have a quick impact !

Maybe the "problem" is also due to how scouting operates. I don't "feel" that scouting reports are enough based on "what they see". They can tell us that a player as a good/bad attribute np matter if he didn't performed accordingly in the match analysed.

I'm not sure if professional scouts and directors of football consider a player's hype in media and among fans too much. The change in reputation among fans is probably bigger than the change in reputation among professionals. When you play Football Manager you take the role of a professional and not a fan, so the guideline for players market values should represent professional opinions more than hype right?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Correct, but professionals lay their jobs on the line with far more uncertainty than users are presented with in-game. A scout at an EPL club can't pull up any of their top targets and compare their ratings in first touch, passing, and vision. They will have their impressions internally, and sometimes it will prove very wrong at least in terms of ability to play for that club's system or coach. The scouting that brought in Douglas Costa and Bouna Sarr for Bayern for example was a spectacular failure for the club and Sarr can't find playing time ahead of a youth team player they didn't know they could count on until after this summer's training. Arsenal bought Willian last summer after a very good season for Chelsea and it seriously did not work out, and now they're trying to offload him.

This kind of uncertainty that clubs visibly face is simply nowhere close to being replicated in-game. Take Willian for example, he was correctly rated and a good player for Chelsea in FM20. He was again a good player in FM21 and what else could the game possibly have shipped him as? The issue is there was no in-game mechanic to account for the volatility inherent in any transfer, and sometimes even in moving from one season to the next on the same team.

A useful way to model this could be for training camp and preseason to actually be consequential. By the end, youth players can make large strides in development while veterans (particularly new signings) can hit jumps or declines, which determines how useful they will be able to be for the team that season. These changes should be super visible and broadcast to the user, so that you know -- as a team's internal professionals do -- when a player has soaring, stagnating, or cratering stock. You've got to be able to buy a player that looks totally logical and then realize, oh sh---.

Edited by lamp
Link to post
Share on other sites

Football is like a game of chess, each piece has its strengths and weakness but its how you play them as a whole a unit/team that matters, not specifically individual pieces - unless your called CR7. A striker is only as good as the service he gets meaning how when and where. A winger/wingback is also only great if he gets it where we wants and there is someone at the other end to make good use of what he does. IF he is lightning fast and the strikers have only just made it past the half way line what use are they when he is out level with the penalty box 18 yard line? Similarly if a wingback is up at the opponents 18 yard line and possession is lost who covers behind? Kloppie is a master of tactics, and that is why some signings have initially failed cos players just could not keep up with the pace LFC play at. Bielsa does wonders at Leeds with many players others would never consider at a similar level cos as a unit there extremely hard to break down. Although he did get the ManUtd game all wrong, and got hammered. 

Has anyone actually watched a whole complete 90 mins of any FM21 match? Studied how the players move cover and find and close down spaces? Praise to the developers cos its impressive if sometimes a little frustrating to watch and attempt to manage, control? yeah right good luck on that one. Pep would have nightmares playing the game the way he manages his teams.

Why did WIlliam fail at Arsenal, maybe he didn't they do? Maybe he is what he always was and that is why Chelsea got rid of him? He looked good in a great team and found wanting in what is a poor Arsenal team. Is that the fault of the players or the coaching and tactics? But was he great at Chelsea? Why is he still not there then? His concentration is poor decision making is naïve at best first touch hit and miss and passing/shooting ability? Did he loose his contact lenses??? or does he need a pair? His awareness and reading of games is just as bad for the position he plays. There is no attribute for intelligence/IQ but there should be !!! Ok I know some are going to point out Rooney or Gazza there are exceptions. 

My point is your team tactics determine what attributers you need in a given player. If your attack is holding a high line speed isn't as important as say agility acceleration balance first touch and your forwards would be advanced. If your playing a lower line of engagement, as in fast counter attack, stamina, speed/acceleration fitness is critical as much as one-on one and composure/ball control to get the ball past the goalie and hopefully into the net. SO they would hold back on their forward position looking for gaps aiming to beat the slowest defenders and waiting for those killer balls to chase. Vice versa for defending. Yes you can dig deep into tactics but its time consuming and often unrewarding cos often players do their own thing and you end up with 10 different tactics for each formation changing instructions during games is a pain since you are reacting to the opposition as much as your own teams instructions.  Set your assistant to perfect attributes and delegate - at your peril !

ok back to playing Leeds just won the Quad, EPL Champions League FA Cup and Carathingie cup but Mr Radrizzani refuses to improve Elland Road, we need a new stadium and he has over £600m in the bank and I have over £300m in transfer kitty I cant use and he just refused me a transfer for £40m for a wonderkid cos we can't afford him????????? How did I make that money? developing anyone that looked half good I could get cheap and pay them peanuts from under18s teams keeping them till 21 on the lowest wages possible and selling with 40% on future transfers. Scouts are critical but data analyst is more reliable. Now we are making over £200m a year doing naught, the tax man loves us !!! Just as well we are making that money cos our income/expenditure/wages is a disaster cos the economy part of the game is broken or at best deeply floored. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...