Jump to content

Flipping the coin again: adjusting a counter strategy against a desperate/high pressing opponent


Recommended Posts

Yes, so I have faced this situation more than once, playing a counter attacking system on more than one formation: you start the game well, you score a goal (or two, or even three) and your opponent almost cannot attack or create any dangerous chances, which for me looks like our strategy is working well. Then (usually at the second half) the other team becomes insane, "flips the coin" and takes control of the game. Max pressing, full attack, crossing from deep, creating many chances...we are stuck in our own half, all our passes are simply wasted and I know they will score.

I know this is perfectly normal, they want to win the game, but in this situation, would you change anything regarding roles/duties and TIs, or even reduce the mentality a notch, to "flip the coin again"? If yes, what would you change? 

Normally I prefer to play counter systems using a basic starting point of Positive Mentality + Standard DL + Lower LOE, adjusting just a more few things if necessary, so for me any adjustments would come from this point.

 

Edited by Tsuru
Link to post
Share on other sites

Playing with a deeper LOE will ask your team to invite pressure. To have that happen efficiently, you need to choose a formation, that is in its structure made to do so.

No dangerous areas should be exposed naturally and it should contain numerical superiority in the area you are trying to defend in.

You will see the negative effects of not doing so, most likely when the other team does actually increase their pressure.

So what I think happens is, that your formation and setup simply does not fit your playing style against high pressing teams

Edited by CARRERA
Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutos atrás, CARRERA disse:

Playing with a deeper LOE will ask your team to invite pressure. To have that happen efficiently, you need to choose a formation, that is in its structure made to do so.

No dangerous areas should be exposed naturally and it should contain numerical superiority in the area you are trying to defend in.

You will see the negative effects of not doing so, most likely when the other team does actually increase their pressure.

So what I think happens is, that your formation and setup simply does not fit your playing style against high pressing teams

I tried a 4-3-3 (4-1-4-1 DM Wide), 4-4-2 (british/two lines of four and diamond), 5-3-2 and a 4-4-1-1, and despite the flaws they all look good for counter attacks. The 4-4-2 for example seems suited for it but we would leave space for DMCs and AMCs, for example.

Maybe I should avoid a system that invites pressure, then, and find a different strategy. But this is too hard to do on smaller teams - I have tried for example to play on a british 4-4-2 Balanced mentality with no specific instructions, using a setup which was suggested here at the forums and which suited my players, and the team were kind of "blank", didn´t attack enough and poorly defended. Then I also tried another option on a Positive mentality with no instructions and it was a festival of through balls behind our defensive line. More attacking/aggresive systems usually need a more adventurous fullback and then it was a festival of crossings and through balls on the flanks.

The option of Positive + Standard DL + Lower LOE still seems the best one. Maybe I have to create a specific strategy for high pressing/desperate teams. Or maybe I will just simple put the LOE on standard and see what happens.

 

Edited by Tsuru
Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Or maybe I will just simple put the LOE on standard and see what happens.

In my experience, the interdiction on the forum against having your LOE higher than DL minus 1 is overstated. If you are finding it difficult/impossible to disrupt your opponent's attacking play, engaging them earlier makes absolute sense. :thup:

Link to post
Share on other sites

The best way to defend a high pressing team is by attacking them, they leave spaces behind the lines, providing that your team has good passing and off the ball movements. You can do short passing // normal tempo, activate hit early crosses and ask your GK to put the ball to your forwards in transition.

That should give you plenty chances to outscore them, providing that your players suit this way of playing.

If you are clearly inferior, then you need to be compact, I usually play 433 DM and ask my ST to man mark the player who is organising the plays from the back.

You can also activate regroup because should you lose the ball you don't want to be hit with their counter.

Get taller CDs if you are struggling with crosses and better defending FBs who can tackle those wide position crosses.

Defending high pressing teams is by far the most difficult thing in this game, if you want to play Counter attack tactics, they will just destroy you.

Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutos atrás, Prolix disse:

In my experience, the interdiction on the forum against having your LOE higher than DL minus 1 is overstated. If you are finding it difficult/impossible to disrupt your opponent's attacking play, engaging them earlier makes absolute sense. :thup:

Sometimes I even think that we should engage them earlier or maybe even much earlier - because if the ball comes near our area, my poor defenders and fullbacks have no quality to deal with attacks. Like the author did on this topic: https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/551917-my-take-on-a-4-4-2-diamond/

So I may try Positive with standard DL +  standard LOE or even standard DL + higher LOE and see what happens. Good to see that it engaging earlier worked well for you.

17 minutos atrás, Sharkn20 disse:

The best way to defend a high pressing team is by attacking them, they leave spaces behind the lines, providing that your team has good passing and off the ball movements. You can do short passing // normal tempo, activate hit early crosses and ask your GK to put the ball to your forwards in transition.

That should give you plenty chances to outscore them, providing that your players suit this way of playing.

If you are clearly inferior, then you need to be compact, I usually play 433 DM and ask my ST to man mark the player who is organising the plays from the back.

You can also activate regroup because should you lose the ball you don't want to be hit with their counter.

Get taller CDs if you are struggling with crosses and better defending FBs who can tackle those wide position crosses.

Defending high pressing teams is by far the most difficult thing in this game, if you want to play Counter attack tactics, they will just destroy you.

That is the problem, my team is simply bad at everything. I have tried to attack high pressing teams and it was not very good. I have tried to invite pressure and it was not very good too. 

I have tall CDs but it is almost useless, to be sincere - it has been a festival of crossing balls and goals from heading, even though they are strong and have nice impulse.

Regroup? Even worse, the team gets completely stuck in its own half and the other team will score anyway.

You see, I am not complaining or something like that, it is just so hard sometimes. If I play ultra aggressive and offensive I will be crushed (I did try), I cannot counter attack because inviting pressure means I will be crushed by high pressing teams, and playing with a "blank" tactic also seemed useless and I was...crushed. I have to find something "in the middle" - a strategy that is not too passive neither defends too deep, but it is not so aggressive that exposes the team too much.

To make things more interesting, my current challenge is to play with Wrexham only hiring Welsh players, so I have to play with it is possible and raising quality may be very hard sometimes.

Edited by Tsuru
Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Sometimes I even think that we should engage them earlier or maybe even much earlier - because if the ball comes near our area, my poor defenders and fullbacks have no quality to deal with attacks. Like the author did on this topic: https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/551917-my-take-on-a-4-4-2-diamond/

So I may try Positive with standard DL +  standard LOE or even standard DL + higher LOE and see what happens. Good to see that it engaging earlier worked well for you.

That is the problem, my team is simply bad at everything. I have tried to attack high pressing teams and it was not very good. I have tried to invite pressure and it was not very good too. 

I have tall CDs but it is almost useless, to be sincere - it has been a festival of crossing balls and goals from heading, even though they are strong and have nice impulse.

Regroup? Even worse, the team gets completely stuck in its own half and the other team will score anyway.

You see, I am not complaining or something like that, it is just so hard sometimes. If I play ultra aggressive and offensive I will be crushed (I did try), I cannot counter attack because inviting pressure means I will be crushed by high pressing teams, and playing with a "blank" tactic also seemed useless and I was...crushed. I have to find something "in the middle" - a strategy that is not too passive neither defends too deep, but it is not so aggressive that exposes the team too much.

To make things more interesting, my current challenge is to play with Wrexham only hiring Welsh players, so I have to play with it is possible and raising quality may be very hard sometimes.

Well all end in the players you got, the tactic can only take you so far... From there is down to the calculation in player's attributes.

You are not going to win a Champions League with League 2 players. You will win it with enough star players for the competition you playing. Not all of them, but enough to help the tactic to thrive.

You might have to reset your expectations until you can get better players.

Edited by Sharkn20
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutos atrás, Sharkn20 disse:

Well all end in the players you got, the tactic can only take you so far... From there is down to the calculation in player's attributes.

You are not going to win a Champions League with League 2 players. You will win it with enough star players for the competition you playing. Not all of them, but enough to help the tactic to thrive.

You might have to reset your expectations until you can get better players.

Yes, they are for example good enough for the 5th division but not for the 4th. So I will probably have to be promoted and survive with a weaker team, for example, and keep surviving until I have better players.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

Yes, they are for example good enough for the 5th division but not for the 4th. So I will probably have to be promoted and survive with a weaker team, for example, and keep surviving until I have better players.

That is correct.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Tsuru said:

You see, I am not complaining or something like that, it is just so hard sometimes. If I play ultra aggressive and offensive I will be crushed (I did try), I cannot counter attack because inviting pressure means I will be crushed by high pressing teams, and playing with a "blank" tactic also seemed useless and I was...crushed.

Well, sometimes you have to accept, that your team is still an underdog. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Em 09/06/2021 em 21:39, CARRERA disse:

Well, sometimes you have to accept, that your team is still an underdog. 

I see, and this topic helped me understanding that counter attacks are not the best strategy when we are underdogs, because we can´t handle the pressure well. I think there is a confusion with small real life underdogs that play a very conservative style and sometimes on counter, basically trying to avoid relegation, but IRL managers can train and adapt their players in a way we cannot do in FM. So I will try to find a way of playing as underdog in FM.

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

I see, and this topic helped me understanding that counter attacks are not the best strategy when we are underdogs, because we can´t handle the pressure well. I think there is a confusion with small real life underdogs that play a very conservative style and sometimes on counter, basically trying to avoid relegation, but IRL managers can train and adapt their players in a way we cannot do in FM. So I will try to find a way of playing as underdog in FM.

Well, I wouldn’t fully agree. In real life the underdog teams don’t intend to win against the big clubs if they park the bus. They sometimes just don’t want to loose high and may be lucky with a counter attack or two. However, when they play against other underdog teams the play completely different and may even press high up the pitch and attack the goal.

There is also a big difference in counter strategies. small teams need all 10 players behind the ball while stronger teams may be able to defend with less players. 

did you try a support duty striker yet? He will help your team to defend and can transition the ball to aggressive wing players.

 

Edited by CARRERA
Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutos atrás, CARRERA disse:

Well, I wouldn’t fully agree. In real life the underdog teams don’t intend to win against the big clubs if they park the bus. They sometimes just don’t want to loose high and may be lucky with a counter attack or two. However, when they play against other underdog teams the play completely different and may even press high up the pitch and attack the goal.

There is also a big difference in counter strategies. small teams need all 10 players behind the ball while stronger teams may be able to defend with less players. 

did you try a support duty striker yet? He will help your team to defend and can transition the ball to aggressive wing players.

I did try a support striker on a 4-3-3 (4-1-4-1 DM Wide), however I used it with a goalscoring winger/third man of midfield and really didn´t like the results.

I agree with you that counter attacking strategies are difficult to implement because you need to adapt all the time, against a different opponent, a different match situation, or simply when you suffer a goal - like you said, you play differently against big clubs and against the ones of same level.

I stablished some criteria for the formation I will use next season: I want a DM to protect the centre backs a little bit more, and I want to play with two strikers as I think the current ones don´t have the quality to play alone. This naturally gives me a 4-4-2 diamond or 4-1-3-2, and to compensate the fact of being a narrow formation I will use a pair of Carrileros, which I found are not so difficult to find on lower divisions. Then I will start with simple instructions and try to find the right balance.

You see, we are the underdogs and will be for some time on, so I will try to create something simple and not too specific in terms of playstyle.

Edited by Tsuru
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Tsuru said:

I did try a support striker on a 4-3-3 (4-1-4-1 DM Wide), however I used it with a goalscoring winger/third man of midfield and really didn´t like the results.

Did you like how he defended?

To not overcomplicate things, I would suggest to focus on your primary goal, which I assume was to defend deep and then try to build the rest around that. 

It’s still hard to judge anything without seeing your tactics. 

another thing could be to set your line of Engagement closer to the middle of the pitch, but leave the pressing intensity low, if you are getting caged into your defensive third too much

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutos atrás, CARRERA disse:

another thing could be to set your line of Engagement closer to the middle of the pitch, but leave the pressing intensity low, if you are getting caged into your defensive third too much

This is an interesting idea, I will try it if I feel the team is too stuck.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Tsuru said:

I did try a support striker on a 4-3-3 (4-1-4-1 DM Wide), however I used it with a goalscoring winger/third man of midfield and really didn´t like the results.

I agree with you that counter attacking strategies are difficult to implement because you need to adapt all the time, against a different opponent, a different match situation, or simply when you suffer a goal - like you said, you play differently against big clubs and against the ones of same level.

I stablished some criteria for the formation I will use next season: I want a DM to protect the centre backs a little bit more, and I want to play with two strikers as I think the current ones don´t have the quality to play alone. This naturally gives me a 4-4-2 diamond or 4-1-3-2, and to compensate the fact of being a narrow formation I will use a pair of Carrileros, which I found are not so difficult to find on lower divisions. Then I will start with simple instructions and try to find the right balance.

You see, we are the underdogs and will be for some time on, so I will try to create something simple and not too specific in terms of playstyle.

You don't need 2 strikers formations. Adapting roles and mentalities I transform my 4-3-3DM into a 5-5-0 defending block out of possession to a 2-2-2-4 in the attacking phase, which gives option to recycle balls, cross them or play through to run in attackers, is thinking what you want when you are defending and what you want when you are attacking.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Em 11/06/2021 em 20:26, Sharkn20 disse:

You don't need 2 strikers formations. Adapting roles and mentalities I transform my 4-3-3DM into a 5-5-0 defending block out of possession to a 2-2-2-4 in the attacking phase, which gives option to recycle balls, cross them or play through to run in attackers, is thinking what you want when you are defending and what you want when you are attacking.

Thank you for the insights, I will try a diamond system as I really like it, I think it has everything I am looking for. If does not work I can consider another options.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...